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Advice welcome - US TR4A project just arrived - engine seized


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Hi all, hoping for some advice and direction please

Just received delivery of US TR4A I (probably foolishly) bought unseen, which I am hoping to restore (despite complete lack of mechanical know how) - initially just to a runner - this year.

Electrics work and managed to produce loud thunk from starter but of course engine didn't turn over.

Tried to turn by hand - manually turning fan but no movement so assume engine seized. 

Took rocker cover off and found everything covered with dry rust powder as per pics attached.

Wondering what I am seeing and am thinking I will be  wasting my time trying to unseize the engine, and should start stripping the engine down. 

Any suggestions or comments appreciated.

In anticipation, thanks,

Mark R

 

tr4a 1.jpg

TR4a 2.jpg

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Hi Mark,

you are a brave lad.

The pictures show it as dry as a bone.  Did you check for oil and water.?

You could try  turning the engine with a spanner on the fan extension bolt. Remove the spark plugs and pop a little oil down each hole.

I suspect it will not turn over.

Stripping the engine down if you have some knowledge is not a daunting task. You admit to having no skill - it will be a serious learning curve.

Where abouts are you in the UK.  have a look at the front page of the website and find your local group and pop down and ask questions.

 

If it was me I would remove the engine and GB from the car and strip the engine down.   The bores that the pistons slide in are actually removable liners.

These liner have very important gaskets between the liner and the block - I would suspect they are corrode. This will let water into the sump. 

Take it apart, clean it up, measure everything and rebuild.  Ask many many questions.

 

Roger 

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Hi Roger, thanks for the response.

Knew it was going to be a big learning curve, but that's sort of what I'm was looking for. Appears to be loads of information and help available, its just knowing what information I need and what to ask.

Am planning to get to local meet, and hope to get more help from members such as yourself.

Dipstick showing oil but that may not mean much - I'll fill up oil and water, try some down sparkplug holes and try a spanner on fan as you suggest. If no joy will start to strip. 

I'm tight on space - is it really  necessary to lift engine out - I read somewhere a lot of work can be done with engine in situ. Do you think I could at least get it stripped down to inspect the liners without lifting the engine?

Thanks again for coming back to me, at least I know what to start on this weekend.

Mark

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I have a six cylinder engine that I bought without a head and with rain water in the bores.    I managed to free it up - it was seized - by leaving a mixture of oil and white spirit in the bores, and trying to turn it, both ways, every day.    Eventually, over a month, it freed up, and I have it running in my engine rig, without a rebuild.       I wouldn't use it ina car without one though!

In my ignorance of TR4 engines, I gladly endorse Roger's advice, not to try  to turn it, but take it apart.    But a soak in something penetrating now might help remove the pistons later.    What are other's favourite 'freeing-up mixtures"?   In the US, half and half acetone and ATF is favourite (or favorite).

John

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You...we can rebuild her.

Whether you can get the car roadworthy and running for this "season" rather depends upon what you find as you go along. The engine will rebuild as Roger suggests, the rust on top of the rocker gear (the knobbly bits running along the "stick" with green fingers (the rockers) looks like it may have come from the underneath of the rocker cover (the tin bit right at the top of the engine) which you took off to get a picture underneath.

These engines are that robust I've seen engines like this after being emptied of loose rust and a pint of diesel (very good for freeing off seized parts) being poured into the spark plug holes (where the white ceramic fingers stick out, unscrew them they should not be overtight) and then a bit of careful forwards and backwards turning of the big bolt end in front of the fan freeing the engine up. Then with removal of the oil sump (the tin bath on the bottom of the goddam heavy cast iron block (probably rusty too) which will collect the diesel as it runs through the engine. Undo the sump plug and drain it off and then undo the sump bolts around the edge and drop the sump. Have a look inside with a torch and have a look and report back.

Mick Richards 

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Just seen you update post, yes you can certainly strip bits out to component level with the engine in the car even down to the crankshaft...warning it is depressingly heavy and will kill you if it falls unsecured be careful. If you hope to run the engine without rebuild it is important you report back and give info, it may not be possible or advisable to do so but at least there is a chance.

Mick Richards 

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Thanks for further replies John and Mick.

I'll try some diesel in it this weekend and see if this frees it up then drop the sump and report back.

I was half expecting some level of rebuilding being necessary, and got the impression that I should be able to do a lot of it myself - there's certainly plenty of information available. Guess I am just nervous about starting into something I don't know a lot about.....

Your few speedy and guiding responses have already given me some confidence that the advice and direction, as well as the information, are out there. Thankyou.

I'll be back in  touch when I've tried diesel and dropped sump/ Thanks again.

Mark

 

 

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Looking at the pictures and the rust debris I’d guess this is from the pressed tin rocker cover insides. 
 

and that you WILL have success in freeing the engine with a bit of soaking. 

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Hi Mark,

do you have tools?

The threads are all UNF/UNF with AF heads so a set of AF spanners  1/4"af  up to 3/4"AF with cover almost every thing. 

A 3/8" drive AF socket set will be handy again 1/4 to 3/4.  A 1/4" AF drive with small socket is useful.

IF you get to removing the head DO NOT rotate the crank shaft. This will cause the piston liners to pull off their gaskets and then you are into more rebuilding. 

 

Good luck

Roger

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Mark, I'd suggest you start by vacuuming that rust off, and otherwise brushing it away from the pushrod tubes, and then wiping everything you can see clean.  In short, trying to get rid of as much as possible because you will not want it inside your engine as you struggle to free it off.   

Looks as if someone has put a lot of effort into that engine, and with care you may be lucky in finding recently replaced and good condition parts within.  But those will be best preserved by not even turning it over until it's been thoroughly flushed clean.  That, in my opinion, would be best achieved by draining the oil, taking the engine out, and inverting it to clean it out.  

Out of interest what's the rest of the car like ?

Pete.    

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Mark,

you are a hero.

Pete (Bfg) above could well  be right, there is no dirt (like thick black grease) on the valve springs from many miles of a worn out engine. And the green arms (rockers) look as if painted (what is normally not the case and would turn black after running for some years).

This forum and it’s fine people and the WSM (work shop manual) are your best friends. Pete is doing a similar job, well reported in the “general section” on this forum, Read it carefully, it will give you a better understanding. 
 

Make pictures, lots of it, and do not start with the next step until you know what you are doing and what to expect; read read ask ask.

Waldi

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Hi Mark

give your location as there may be one of us near by for advice. All you need to know can be found on hear and if not just ask.

With Mick, diesel in the bores and leave to soak for hours or days will free it.  Dropping the sump removing the big end caps and a gentle tap up should free the rings if not . Also you can then check that the crank will move a little.

 

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13 minutes ago, Tr4aJim said:

Regarding tools; be sure to use only 6 point sockets, as 12 point will round over the bolts/nuts.

Jim

Forgot to say, the "dog bolt" or crankshaft end bolt which holds the crankshaft pulley on is about 1 1/8"th across the flats from memory, and as fitted the corners are rounded off so a socket which drives off the flats is imperative here. Oh...and don't put the spark plugs back in once removed and diesel pored into each bore (only about 50cc in each chamber needed) you don't want to "hydraulic" the engine (try to compress fluid (impossible)  which would bend items).

Mick Richards  

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Hi all and thanks for further comments, tips and suggestions.

Have cleaned up dry rust of top and yes it was from inside rocker cover.

Dropped some diesel in and will leave it to work. Did start to look at putting spannner on dog bolt, but found no dog bolt on end of fan assembly. Appears dog bolt is internal to fan shroud/casing as in RevingtonTR TR4 diagram I found online (attached), and I will struggle to access it until I get a tool to pull the whole fan and pulley assemble.

Maybe just as well - will leave well alone until had a chance to remove sump and see what situation is there. Work stopped now whilst waiting for delivey of wheel ramps to allow me to work safely underneath. Hopefully be able to get back to it this weekend and see what situation is in the sump. Will report  back then.

Meantime will take a look at pete's reports in General Section and order in correct tools.

Pete, since you enquired rest of car was much as I had expected. Needs new sills, boot floor and small panels near boot hinges/bottom of corners of hood - rest of bodywork seems OK apart from some rust spots. Will need a paint job one day. Chassis looks OK. Doors line up perfectly which I know is a good sign. Interior is all damp so most of carpets, etc will need replacing, and most of rubber perished. Trim is mostly there and should just need a good clean. Windows in hood all discoloured so may need new hood or might be able to find a way to replace window material. No fluid in brakes or clutch so no idea about these yet, but had anticipated likelihood of replacing brakes anyway. New exhaust and manifold needed (just seen prices!!!). Electrics all seem to work. New dash needed as corner rotten and broken - hope to make new one myself. Not thinking to much about anything until I can get engine running - seems silly to invest to much time and money until I know where I stand with engine, but imagine I'll be putting a good few hours in drying and cleaning everything out alongside gettingn the engine sorted.

 

revingtontr TR4 dog bolt diagram.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Mark Richardson said:

Appears dog bolt is internal to fan shroud/casing as in RevingtonTR TR4 diagram I found online (attached)

You are misinterpreting the drawing Mark - they've just shown it separately for clarity. It fits right through the fan extension with the head at the front of the fan.

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23 minutes ago, RobH said:

You are misinterpreting the drawing Mark - they've just shown it separately for clarity. It fits right through the fan extension with the head at the front of the fan.

TR4A didn't have the starter dogs. I understand the TR4 had it ..but no hole in the radiator.  But it's not on the 4A.  There's nothing to turn the engine over by from the front without taking the fan off.   (Possibly) the easiest way for you to try and free your engine (.. when the time is right) is to rock the car back n' forth in gear.  

Sounds like you've got a more complete car than the one I'm still trying to buy, and that will help you no end (if you take lots of photos, from all angles before & during disassembly) ..when it comes to putting it all back together again. Of course there is no guarantee that it was put together right by previous owners, but at least you have a fighting chance (and a BIG boost to the fun factor !) if / when you can get the car started without having to pull the motor.  We'll compare notes as we go along.  B)

Pete

Edited by Bfg
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Hi RobH, thanks for contribution. Am sure Pete is right and think dog bolt is internal to fan mount - which leaves me wondering how I can access it if/when I need to, as when I tried to remove nuts attaching fan mounting to pulley the bolts they were on turned as well, and can't get to bolt heads as they are internal behind the pulley!! I will try and remember to post a photo fan head when I get the radiator off and can get a clear shot, but at present am hoping that may be able to free up engine from underneath as per Roy53's post or by rocking car in gear as per Pete.

Failing that I'll either have to either work out how to get to dog bolt, or consider lifting engine to get to rear end, or stripping down either in or out of the car. BOth options a  long way off at present - sump off this weekend and see what that tells me as per Mick Richards.

Pete - may sound like I have a more complete car but likely that is because my limited knowledge means I've not even thought about all parts - just realised after browsing other posts I've not even considered suspension, carb's, etc, etc, and may have unerestimated extent of bodywork needed, etc, etc. Will see as we go.

Mark

 

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2 hours ago, Mark Richardson said:

 

 

 

Pete - may sound like I have a more complete car but likely that is because my limited knowledge means I've not even thought about all parts - just realised after browsing other posts I've not even considered suspension, carb's, etc, etc, and may have unerestimated extent of bodywork needed, etc, etc. Will see as we go.

Mark

 

Mark  - I may be able to help you with some parts - have sent you a PM ( a personal message) which goes into your private forum mailbox - its in the little envelope icon in the top right hand corner of the forum page and it will have a little red tag by it indicating you have an unread message

Cheers  Rich

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