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Hi All

A quick question, to which I should know the answer, but don't or have forgotten.

I have a TR2 engine which is just about to be listed on ebay.

Engine number is TS5027ME - see pic.

I am sure I have come across this before, but have forgotten what the M stands for.

Just want to get the listing accurate.

Any help appreciated.

Regards, Simon Westlake

 

P1020350.jpg

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Morgan?

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So does it make it an early low port  Morgan engine ?

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Does the block have cam bearings?

If this engine was bought not fitted to a car are you sure it has a TR 2 front engine plate.  Morgan front plate is not unlike but will not fit TR. Does the engine have a water pump?   

Peter W

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT

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Hi Peter

The engine came loose on a pallet with no front plate. I believe all TR engined Morgans had a Vangaurd front plate fitted, which may explain it's removal. No water pump fitted either, in fact no ancillaries at all. 

There were two engines, but one was pretty much just the block with no innards. I haven't checked the number on that one yet. There were also two low port heads, one painted the same red as the engine. 

Checked up on one Morgan website, which immediately confirmed what Don thought above, so as sure as I can be that it us Morgan. 

Regards Simon

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My copy of the Ian Allan ABC of Sports Cars, authored by Albert Douglas, cost me two shillings and states that the Morgan Plus Four Two-seater has "the well-proved Standard Vanguard engine of 2,088cc, has a power outlut of 68 bhp at 4,200 rpm and provides all models, which have weights varying from 16 cwt to 17 cwt, with a brisk performance and top speed of over 90 mph.  Also available is the Triumph TR2 engine, which is a modified Standard Vanguard of 1,991cc".

Last few words incorrect, as those who have read my articles on the development of the TR engine (published in TR Actions 241 & 242, March & May 2010) will be aware.

My 1956 edition of the Observer's Book of Automobiles by Richard Parsons (five shillings, but hard-back and much larger), lists three models of Plus-Four Morgans, but can't seem to decide which engine is used, as it gives both 2,088 and 1,991cc, Vanguard and TR.  Perhaps purchasers had a choice, with some difference in cost.  A fourth model of Morgan, the Series II 2-seater, used the very robust Ford side-valve 1,172cc engine.

I'm sure that Bill Piggott can give us more detail.

Ian Cornish

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Surely a Vanguard engine would not have a TS prefix, also the position of the dip stick and diameter of the head studs should confirm it is a TR sourced engine.

          Cheers

                       Richard

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The Morgan +4 used a Standard/Triumph engine although the use of engines broadly followed the ones in production at the time.

From 1950 it was the Vanguard engine, with the TR2 engine offered as an option from 1953 (apparently the Vanguard block was painted black and the TR2 block was maroon). TR3 engine was an option from 1955 although the TR2 engine was still sold until stocks ran out in 1957. From 1961 the TR4 engine was an option but became standard fitment in 1962 with the 1991 TR3 engine remaining as an option  for under 2 litre competition. (source- Original Morgan by John Worrall and Liz Turner)

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2 hours ago, Dic Doretti said:

Surely a Vanguard engine would not have a TS prefix, also the position of the dip stick and diameter of the head studs should confirm it is a TR sourced engine.

          Cheers

                       Richard

As mentioned in times past, some Vanguards have the dipstick in the same position as

a TR.What I've not fathomed out is how you make a Vanguard engine look like a TR engine

by fitting a TR inlet manifold and carbs notwithstanding that  Vanguard in/ex ports are round,

TR exh ports are rectangular. the manifold mounting  studs on a Vanguard head  have a

completely different layout to a TR.

Roger M-E

 

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As far as Iknow "Flat-rad" plus 4 Morgans had Vanguard engines and post 1953 cowled rad plus 4s had TR2 engines...…..one of the reasons John Black was "sacked" by his own board at the end of 1953 was that he was quietly diverting engines from the TR2 line to go into both Morgans and Dorettis at a time when there was a dire shortage of TR2 engines for TR2s ! Bill P

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I wrote to Ian Gibson about some of the differences between the Vanguard and TR engine, and he replied thus:

You can't put a TR2 or TR3 manifold set-up onto a Vanguard cylinder head.  The shape of the ports would be the least of your worries -- the studs are all entirely wrong and I cannot see anyone thinking that trying to re-tap a Vanguard cylinder head to do this would be worth the effort (even if it were possible -- which I doubt!!).

What used to be quite common was to simply drop a TR cylinder head complete with manifolds onto a Vanguard block.  In my experience this was usually a TR2 low port head simply because there were a number around fairly cheap left over from folk who "upgraded" their TR2/early TR3 to a high port set-up.  That really is dead easy though the head studs are too slender (so they never seize into the cylinder head!!) and blown head gaskets become a problem because, apart from the weak studs, with Vanguard pistons the CR is much higher than a Vanguard, and goes up from the standard TR2's 8.5 to virtually 9 (the change from 83mm to 85mm bores).

Yes, Phase 1 & 2 Vanguard engines have the forward dipstick position as per TR, but the front engine mounting plate is quite different and the whole timing chest has to be dismantled to change that to TR type.  Vanguard Phase 3 onwards (Ensigns etc) and the Vanguard Sportsman all have the central dipstick position, so easy to spot.

Interesting titbit from Bill - I was unaware of that.  Seems extraordinary that the MD of Triumph should damage production of "his"  own sports car to bolster sales of Morgans and Dorettis.  Bonkers, frankly.

Ian Cornish

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Ah Ian, he'd tried to buy Morgans, without success, earlier in the 50s but still had hopes and wished to keep them sweet, and he had a personal financial interest in the Doretti project that hadn't been disclosed to his fellow directors.....naughty eh?, but then he ran ST as a personal fieffdom at the time and paid the price...… Bill P.

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That's interesting Bill. I often wondered why Dorettis got some very early TR2 engines such as TS1 and TS4 and to add a hint of conspiracy theory how well did Sir John Black get on with Sir William Lyons of Jaguar who contrived to stop Doretti production.

          Cheers

          Richard

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