earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Today took out the car for a New Year's drive, but after an hour had to return: it became increasingly difficult to change gears, and on the return even impossible to get into second, or at stand still into first gear without the motor stalling or grinding noises from the gearbox. The clutch pedal feels completely soft, and increasingly had to push the pedal deeper and deeper until no uncoupling even occured. Back home put the car on the bridge and pictures added below: the connection between the hydraulics of the clutch and the gearbox clutch lever seems broken; the rod is loose inside the hydraulic "pump" (?). Is that the one that needs exchanged? Is this a common failure? We bought the 1964 (overdrive) TR4 in 2016, averaging a few thousand km annually, always very softly driven. Any recommendations about this issue (sorry, I searched the forum with "clutch" and "gearbox" search words, but thousands of unrelated posts appear)? Thanks for your replies! Greetings and Happy New Year! Erik Edited January 1, 2020 by earckens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Commiserations on a poor start to your New Year Erik. If you can see the rod being pushed backwards by the slave cylinder (your pump) when the clutch pedal is pressed, then there probably isn't anything wrong with the cylinder. The rod isn't fixed to the cylinder, it pushes into a cone-shaped depression on the rear of the piston. At rest the piston is fully forward (to the left in your photo) inside the cylinder. The operating rod may feel loose because the piston in the cylinder has returned fully but the clutch and its operating fork inside the gearbox casing has not. The lever and rod should be pushed back quite strongly by the spring of the clutch cover apart from a small clearance at the very end of its travel. If the lever moves freely over a considerable range it points to something having gone wrong in the linkage between the operating arm and the release bearing fork. A fairly common fault is a broken fork taper pin, allowing the release-bearing operating fork to rotate on the cross shaft instead of pushing on the clutch. Unfortunately that would mean taking the gearbox out to see what has happened. This link shows the operating parts. The fork (item 10) is pinned to the cross shaft by the taper pin (item 16) https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/clutch-systems/clutch-system-tr2-4a-1953-67.html Edited January 1, 2020 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hi RobH, if I understand correctly the clutch pedal should push the rod in the picture to the right? I will test right now what happens with the push rod when the clutch pedal is pushed; will get back here asap. Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) The horizontal rod is pushed out nicely to the rigth, but the gearbox lever does not push it back to its leftmost position when the pedal is released. I can manually bring the gearbox lever back to its "released" position. But no spring return action is present. Gearbox issue? Erik Edited January 1, 2020 by earckens orthography Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hi Erik, as Rob points out it could be the clutch itself, or the slave cylinder. If you push the lever (with the 3 holes) to the rear by hand with little force, it should a about vertical (6 o’clock) . If you van push it further this indicates a clutch problem. In the engine bay you can see 2 cylinders, each with a reservoir. One is for the brakes, it has 2 metal pipes. The other is the clutch master cylinder, remove the cap and see if there is oil inside. This is special oil. If not, it could well be just a worn slave cylinder (the one near the Gear Box (GB). Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Erik, The clutch shaft leaver (with the 3 holes) does not go past the 6 o’clock position, it will never be at say 7 o’clock, if that is what you think it should when it returns. Groeten, Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, earckens said: The horizontal rod is pushed out nicely to the rigth, but the gearbox lever does not push it back to its leftmost position when the pedal is released. I can manually bring the gearbox lever back to its "released" position. But no spring return action is present. Gearbox issue? Erik Unfortunately it sounds like a clutch linkage problem Erik. There should be very strong spring return action to the rest position - too strong to overcome by hand. As Waldi says at rest the lever should be approximately vertical. When the system was assembled originally, the length of the screwed operating rod would be adjusted so that at rest there would be a small amount of 'play' - 2-3mm or so with the piston fully retracted. If the free movement is much greater than that now, it shows something has gone wrong inside the bellhousing. (I edited my first post to include more detail so you may not have read that). Edited January 1, 2020 by RobH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Waldi said: Hi Erik, as Rob points out it could be the clutch itself, or the slave cylinder. If you push the lever (with the 3 holes) to the rear by hand with little force, it should a about vertical (6 o’clock) . If you van push it further this indicates a clutch problem. In the engine bay you can see 2 cylinders, each with a reservoir. One is for the brakes, it has 2 metal pipes. The other is the clutch master cylinder, remove the cap and see if there is oil inside. This is special oil. If not, it could well be just a worn slave cylinder (the one near the Gear Box (GB). Waldi Hi all, thanks for this very fast help! Yes, I can push (after having pushed and released the clutch pedal) by hand, the lever (with 3 holes) by hand back to its vertical position and no further.7 Then I checked the clutch oil reservoir: level sits about 8 cm below top, and when I push the clutch pedal, air is sucked into and then back out the tubing towards the slave cylinder. Hopefully that means i just have to top that reservoir back up.. What type oil is needed for that? Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, RobH said: Unfortunately it sounds like a clutch linkage problem Erik. There should be very strong spring return action to the rest position - too strong to overcome by hand. As Waldi says at rest the lever should be approximately vertical. When the system was assembled originally, the length of the screwed operating rod would be adjusted so that at rest there would be a small amount of 'play' - 2-3mm or so with the piston fully retracted. If the free movement is much greater than that now, it shows something has gone wrong inside the bellhousing. (I edited my first post to include more detail so you may not have read that). Oeps, posts crossing each other, sorry RobH: I will read everything again first now, Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, earckens said: Hopefully that means i just have to top that reservoir back up.. What type oil is needed for that? Erik Hydraulic fluid Erik. I think you need a seal kit for the slave cylinder though, that drip of fluid looks very dirty. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 25 minutes ago, earckens said: The horizontal rod is pushed out nicely to the rigth, but the gearbox lever does not push it back to its leftmost position when the pedal is released. I can manually bring the gearbox lever back to its "released" position. But no spring return action is present. Gearbox issue? I'm puzzled now. That isn't caused by loss of fluid. I wonder whether the linkage is so slack that the slave piston moves too far and lets fluid escape? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hydraulic fluid: I have EP 80W Castrol manual transmission oil? To RobH: 11 minutes ago, RobH said: Unfortunately it sounds like a clutch linkage problem Erik. There should be very strong spring return action to the rest position - too strong to overcome by hand. As Waldi says at rest the lever should be approximately vertical. When the system was assembled originally, the length of the screwed operating rod would be adjusted so that at rest there would be a small amount of 'play' - 2-3mm or so with the piston fully retracted. If the free movement is much greater than that now, it shows something has gone wrong inside the bellhousing. (I edited my first post to include more detail so you may not have read that). I looked at the drawing in your first post, RobH: for a TR4 I can see item 15 (spring) which should make the lever with 3 holes push the rod back to the left when the clutch pedal is released. In my case there seems to be no spring action: when the clutch pedal is released I can push the lever with 3 holes back to the left but there is no spring action doing that. Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Hello Erik Looking at the moss catalogue (see link) there is a return spring item132 that pulls the lever back towards the slave cylinder. I can't see that in your photo. Has this fallen off? It is quite a strong spring that fits on the engine side of the pushrod between the pivot (item 113) and the bracket (item 102)- I have just looked at my 4A and I have one on my car. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/clutch-systems/clutch-hydraulics-girling-tr4-4a-1961-67.html Normal brake fluid is Dot4 assuming that is what is in your car. Also the push rod and slave cylinder look a bit out of line in the photo. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 No Eric -the spring item 15 just stops rattles. The spring I am talking about is the clutch cover spring (item 1) which is very strong indeed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 minute ago, keith1948 said: Hello Erik Looking at the moss catalogue (see link) there is a return spring item132 that pulls the lever back towards the slave cylinder. I can't see that in your photo. Has this fallen off? It is quite a strong spring that fits on the engine side of the pushrod between the pivot (item 113) and the bracket (item 102)- I have just looked at my 4A and I have one on my car. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/clutch-systems/clutch-hydraulics-girling-tr4-4a-1961-67.html Normal brake fluid is Dot4 assuming that is what is in your car. Also the push rod and slave cylinder look a bit out of line in the photo. Keith Indeed, there is no spring (item 136) present. And indeed, push rod and slave cylinder are out of line (needs fixing, I have to see if connecting to another of the 3 holes will solve this). Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 Referring to last post above mine, item 15 spring does not return the linkage but just takes up side to side play on main operating shaft. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, RobH said: No Eric -the spring item 15 just stops rattles. The spring I am talking about is the clutch cover spring (item 1) which is very strong indeed. Hi RobH, item one in the link of your first post is the clutch cover? Where is the spring you refer to? Grts, Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 11 minutes ago, stillp said: Hydraulic fluid Erik. I think you need a seal kit for the slave cylinder though, that drip of fluid looks very dirty. Pete +1, seal worn, low fluid level and air in the system, and probably the fork of the push rod is fixed one position to low, but the photo can give us a wrong impression and this is not the problem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, keith1948 said: Referring to last post above mine, item 15 spring does not return the linkage but just takes up side to side play on main operating shaft. Keith ok, understand this spring function now, thanks Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
earckens Posted January 1, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 13 minutes ago, keith1948 said: Hello Erik Looking at the moss catalogue (see link) there is a return spring item132 that pulls the lever back towards the slave cylinder. (...) Hi Keith, the spring item 132 you refer to, is that not item 136? Erik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) The clutch pin is in the correct place....it looks wrong, but for TRs the lower hole is correct. I had this problem , feared the taper pin had broken, but a replacement slave cylinder was all that was required. Set up with the correct free play. This is important. The return spring is missing and it’s location tab item 135 The workshop manual is very clear on how to set this up. Edited January 1, 2020 by iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 The clutch cover has strong springs inside it Erik, which push the driven plate onto the flywheel. It's those springs that have to be overcome by pushing on the clutch pedal and they push back again as the clutch is released. The operating rod is adjusted so that with the slave cylinder piston fully retracted, there is just a little play to ensure the release bearing isn't pushing on the clutch cover all the time. The extra spring that Keith mentions pulls back on the operating lever to take up that small clearance. What is puzzling me is that even with a loss of fluid and no spring 136, there shouldn't be much free movement of the operating rod. There should only be a couple of mm of play. If that is what you have then ignore all my talk of linkage problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, earckens said: Hi Keith, the spring item 132 you refer to, is that not item 136? Erik Yes item 136 is the spring. I must have misread the number. Reading the various posts above I think maybe there is a problem inside the bell housing as well because pressing the clutch pedal should disengage the clutch so might be a broken taper pin item 16 on original link as suggested by RobH much earlier. This can be difficult to extract if broken and also requires gearbox out. Do the slave cylinder issues first as that is outside the gearbox and simpler to fix. Keith P.S. Read my next post below as it seems like loss of fluid might be your problem.......... Edited January 1, 2020 by keith1948 extra info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
keith1948 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 47 minutes ago, earckens said: Hi all, thanks for this very fast help! Yes, I can push (after having pushed and released the clutch pedal) by hand, the lever (with 3 holes) by hand back to its vertical position and no further.7 Then I checked the clutch oil reservoir: level sits about 8 cm below top, and when I push the clutch pedal, air is sucked into and then back out the tubing towards the slave cylinder. Hopefully that means i just have to top that reservoir back up.. What type oil is needed for that? Erik This part of your information indicates that the seal inside the slave cylinder (in the photo) needs replacing. The fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir should be about 1cm below the top. There should be no air in the system. Use brake hydraulic fluid dot 4 to refill the system. Make sure you don't get it on the paintwork. It is not oil but hydraulic brake fluid you need. Keith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fireman049 Posted January 1, 2020 Report Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) . Edited April 15, 2020 by Fireman049 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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