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Massey furguson engine for TR4


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So after having my TR4 engine rebuilt by a 'professional' 5 years ago it seems that I'm in a sutation that I lack confidence in the work that was carried out.

My thinking is that, money permitting I might buy an old engine from a tractor an slowly have it rebuilt. I have an tested cylinder head and lots of bit and pieces around me;

I have looked locally and there are plenty of massey furguson petrol tractors around for sale, but I do not have enough knowlege to know what I'm looking for

For example what date should I be looking at,  also is there a series number of a tractor, or a particular type of engine.

Any help would really be appreciated. Thanks in advance

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Always but always use the search facility. I searched under Tractor engine and up popped this stream of posts from only about 2 or 3 months ago, to save your search here is the last post on the thread with full authenticity from Ian Cornish and Ian Gibson the writers of the TR Technicalities CD (you should have had one given you when you joined the TR Register) on the detail.

"The engine is an Industrial version of a Ferguson Tractor engine.  These were not common because although Ferguson continued with petrol and petrol/TVO engines way into the fifties the prospective users of Industrial versions were largely into diesel engines by that time.  I think you will find that only Coles Cranes and Conveyancer Trucks used Industrial versions of the Ferguson petrol tractor engines.

Completely useless for a TR of any sort.  It has the massive tractor cylinder block, a speed governor on the camshaft, and a single updraught Zenith 24T-2 carburettor.  A number off the cylinder block would have pinned it down precisely, though the oil filler is placed very close to, or overlapping, the engine number location!!  Although partly concealed by a piece of rope I think that the inlet manifold will be Stanpart 301760 which was peculiar to the Industrial engines and not used on the tractors.

It could be altered to fit a Ferguson tractor but I think it will prove a very "hard sell" unless someone buys it unaware that it is not suitable for a car -- not even a Vanguard  ".

 

So different ideas needed, I'm sorry you don't now have confidence in your TR engine builder and the unit he has prepared for you. There are quite a few TR specialists around the country but you've not completed your profile showing your location, I'm in Sutton in Ashfield, Nottinghamshire, it shows on the left of the posting and once completed will come up on every post saving you having to tell people constantly where you are from, which will help with the quality of the responses.

Failing that we have enough knowledge throughout the Register and local groups (always worth joining for the help and intelligence offered freely) to sort out your problem...definitely ! the 4 cylinder TR engine is a design classic which is hewn out of granite ! and can be rebuilt literally at the side of the road. If you can tell us what you think the problem is we can respond with a plan...I love a plan, and that will help with the way forward and what we can offer.

Mick Richards

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I have cut some sentences from my 2-part article on the derivation of the TR 4-pot engine, published in TR Actions 241 & 242 (March & May 2010):

In designing a dual-purpose, tractor and car, engine, Ted Grinham and his team had to cater for the major difference in the construction of the vehicle: in the car, the engine/gearbox assembly is supported on a chassis, but in the Ferguson, the engine is the sole structural member linking the front axle to the rear of the tractor – in this role, it is subjected to considerable bending forces (note: this technique has been used in rear-engined Formula 1 cars for several decades now).  On a Continental-engined Ferguson there are ¾ inch diameter tie bars down either side of the bottom of the pressed-steel sump – these being required to provide the structural strength necessary between front and rear.  With Standard’s tractor engine, the block/crankcase and sump were designed ab initio to support the whole structure without any such reinforcement, which required these castings to be far more massive than those for the Vanguard car, although within the engine, there are numerous similarities. 

At the front of the tractor engine (see Figure 1), there is a substantial front axle support assembly, which encloses the crankshaft-mounted (fan belt) pulley wheel on both sides and below, and is bolted to the block and to the sump.  This assembly provides the central pivot for the front axle, in addition to the mounting points for the radiator and the bonnet, which hinges forward (like the later Triumph Herald) to expose the engine.  The forward end of the fuel tank is supported by a bracket which is part of the thermostat housing casting.

Although Fergusons with the Standard engine were available a few months earlier than the Standard Vanguard, it was really the case that engine design, development and production were combined, and that it was basically only a matter of allowing the engine a higher rev limit which changed it from a unit ideally suited to a light tractor to one ideally suited to a saloon car.  The most significant differences were:

Crankcase/cylinder block casting – far more massive for the tractor

Cast covers for sump and timing chain (pressed steel for the car)

Cylinder head casting – the tractor had semi-circular inlet and exhaust ports

Valve sizing

Cylinder bore (initially - although the tractor was increased from 1849cc to the same 2088cc in mid-1949)

Position of the starter motor – left for Ferguson, right for Vanguard

Inclusion of a centrifugal speed governor on the tractor’s camshaft drive

Oil filler on the side of the cylinder block on the tractor, whereas through the rocker cover on the car

Gravity-fed Zenith up-draught carburettor on the tractor, pressure-fed Solex down-draught on the car, which had vacuum advance on the ignition

6 volt electrics on the tractor up to 1951, 12 volt on the car from the start.

In addition, I have attached a file which has an annotated photo of a Fergie engine - this shows just how massive is the crankcase of the tractor, for it is the connection between the front axle and the rear half of the tractor.

If you need a substantial door stop for the garage, I think a Fergie engine would be ideal.

Ian Cornish

2029 with pointers and titles.doc

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Thanks for the information everyone, I need a little bit more time to digest what you all wrote,  but still thank you.

in relation to the location of myself and the car, we are in Moissac, 70 clicks away from Toulouse in South West France.

So a chap rebuilt the engine and I supplied all the parts mainly from Moss in London and Revington as well.  I collected them personally.

However, there was a slight fissure between two valves. It was there for some time as my local TR4 specialist (lived in Paris then) had already pointed it out to me 10 years before. It never affected the performance and there was no sign of water or an oil mixture and I changed the oil every year, always,  even though I only covered about 3000 clicks a year.

Then recently during an oil change, I had a the deded mix that I was not looking forward to, water in the oil sump. so with the wisdon of the engine builder we deciided  to use a product that came from the USA to repair leaks. The mechanic said that someone he knew had used it on his VW camper and has covered over 6000 klms with it. So I gave it a try and it worked.

But, this is where I have not the confidence in the engine and the car . The TR4 has stayed in my garage since, I have only covered about 500 clicks in 3 years!.

The car has a 4 into one manifold, 2 twin choke Webers and a cam to go with it. The cylinder head is upto racing standards as well.

This is how I bought the car 17 Years ago. I feel now that all is not well, as I have a knocking sound that I cannot decipher, and I'm paranoid I could damage the engine permanently if I keep using it, as I use it with all its potential, supposed to have 130 bhp. I'm a old Modified saloon car racer

So a friend of mine had a look at some photos I sent him, (he worked at Cosworth as an engine builder many years ago) and said that the liners should be (some- thousands of an inch above the surface of the block and they are not. The pistons at TDC, and the liners are all flush with the block !

I would now like to sell the car and I cannot - in my mind - sell it knowing it has a potential problem. So I have acquired a new cylinder head and it has been tested and it's good.

If I'm selling I would like to give the potential buyer the option of a new stand by engine, or even install  the propsed new engine back in as standard. I will definately sleep better at nights.

Then Problem 2: The head has been ground down so far it is only XXX thick. the new head is XXX thick an enormous difference.

The compression figures shown, 125 for each cylinder, however I will revert with that (actual)information tomorrow, when I'm absolutely sure, together with the thickness of the 2 cylinder heads

Thank you so much for listening and thank for reading the long winded text, so tomorrow I will write again with thos missing details.

BTW a petrol Massey F. engine   situated in the Tractor cost between 500€ and 1000€ and as I have a large garden, if I remove the engine and box the chasis etc etc can be a talking point in my garden. BTW the 500€ model is presentable and the only problem seems to be the starter motor is missing and I have one in my garage.

Say what you like I'm open for any critism and any helpbyou can offer would be great. Be Bold and tell me what you really think

KJ

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Sorry you've got those problems KJ, I'm not familiar with those new fangled continental measurements of xxx on the thickness but unless xxx equates to over .180 thou (nearly 3/16th of an inch in old English fractions then you are good to go.

The compressions pressures are a little low at 125 but if you have no liner heights showing above the block the gaskets likely compromised and will affect those. Depending upon what compression ratio you are running at (no more than 10.3:1 if you are not using fuel additive) then the cylinder chambers can be altered to keep you in the standard fuel area. The liners need to protrude between 3 and 5 thou above the block surface, and the engine building again, we can supply ALL information upon how to do it as long as you can get a reliable engine builder who can follow instructions. These TR engines are VERY robust and can be built at the side of the road if necessary so be assured if unreliability is the reason you have not been using it we can make that a thing of the past quite easily. The TR head will occasionally show a crack in between the valves but as long as there are no valve inserts fitted again these engines will last for years running with them with reliability.  

Could you explain a little more of when this "knocking " noise appeared and have you driven far with it making the noise ?

regards Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Thank chaps, I'm getting a better idea as to what is going on now. Sorry for the xxx and the xxx I'm going to get that information as soon as I can.

I'm also forgetting the possibilty of using a Massey F. block from a tractor, Thx Charlie D. As for the knocking, I'm seriously considering taking the engine out and having a good measure up and try to get an idea of what is really wrong.  The low compression situation I understand now, as well due to not protruding of the liners, 3 - 5 Thou

I'm not in any hurry, but please if you think of anything else relevant. I would be so grateful

Cheers KJ

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So, you have an engine? What do you think is wrong with it?  Surely it would be better to fix the engine you have. Rimmer Bros have several model complete engine rebuild kits for £650 + VAT, You might require the assistance of a specialist engineering firm for valve seat, valve guide fitting, and crankshaft regrind, if needed. 125 psi is a bit low - especially for a race prepared engine ..... I'm getting 150 psi on a 'dubious history' standard 4A lump. Water in the oil would certainly point at a head gasket problem at the very least, and might be contributing to the low compression readings you are getting.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RF4006R2BK

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I have had a discussion with Charlie and we seem to be of the opinion that the photo he posted is probably of an American "Continental" engine, not that of a Standard Ferguson TE20 engine, which is why the casting does not appear to be as massive as that shown in my article. 

The tractors using the Continental engine required extra bracing to support the tractor's front axle - without the bracing, the crankcase of the Continental would have fractured had the tractor hit a big bump or dropped into a hole.

Ian Cornish

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Charlie sent me another photo (attached here), which I asked Ian Gibson to view - Ian's response was:

Yep, that is a TEA etc block.  You can see the governor output on the front of the timing case and the tractor blocks have no provision for a petrol pump or for the alternative dipstick position.  However, if he cleans off the small panel just to the left of the oil filler cap he should find the engine number stamped there which would tell us if it is early or later.

Not that it makes much difference -- apart from a few internal parts (which may be worn out anyway!!) that block is useless for anything other than a Fergie, or a forklift truck, or whatever.

TEA block.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thank again chaps, all very useful information indeed.

I have a good contact in the local town who is used to rebuilding engines, I had a very long chat with him and with the proper measurements, he will rebuild the engine for me. He also wants me to supply all the parts as well. So I have made progress there, and he understood that the liners should be pround of the cylinder, which we think they are not. Plus he has already rebuilt a TR engine for another english chap.

Whilst writing could someone advise me on what the thickness should be on a standard cylinder head? Mine is not standard and measures 83 mm, does that sound right ?

I'm planning to take the engine out during January, so I will keep in touch with you all and let you know my progress.

and when I have a few moments to spare I will check the compression again.  Where would I be without all your input, Thanks again

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A standard uncut 4 pot head is I believe 3.3" so 83.8mm which appears to be pretty much where you're at

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  • 1 year later...
  • 4 weeks later...
22 minutes ago, stillp said:

Maybe he's just spamming?

Pete

deffo

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