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michaeldavis39

Tr6 rockers

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Hello learned gentlemen. I am looking to have my rockers overhauled, I see Rimmers, Moss sell the uprated shaft or the individual components or a refurbed set of rockers and shaft - it doesn't say if the shaft on the refurbished ones is an uprated shaft though. Has anyone bought the refurbed shaft or the full kit from these vendors and what is your experience please? Also is it better to fit solid spacers rather than the springs between the rocker arms? I look forward to your replies. Thank you

 

Michael

Edited by michaeldavis39

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Michael, 

Moss and Rimmer sell the same rockers. With bronze bearing. Moss sells the shaft (unhardend) as a set with the rockers. Rimmer sells a hardened shaft but not as a set and you need to hone the rockers yourself. 
I have a set from Rimmer and had the rockers honed. Friend of mine has the Moss set. Both seem to work. 
The solid spacers did not fit. I need to adjust a few of them. For now they are on the shelf and I am using original setup on the shaft. 
Jochem

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14 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

Michael, 

Moss and Rimmer sell the same rockers. With bronze bearing. Moss sells the shaft (unhardend) as a set with the rockers. Rimmer sells a hardened shaft but not as a set and you need to hone the rockers yourself. 
I have a set from Rimmer and had the rockers honed. Friend of mine has the Moss set. Both seem to work. 
The solid spacers did not fit. I need to adjust a few of them. For now they are on the shelf and I am using original setup on the shaft. 
Jochem

Hi Jochem,

I am surprised that the standard Moss shaft is not hardened but their Triumph Tune catalogue shows one as an alternative!. Also surprised that the rockers bores are not reamed to size? But then again this is Moss quality again ? Something that I have complained about for 25 years! The TR shop sell a complete assembly, has this a hardened shaft? Does anyone know? Roger I think that is  another job for you on the quality Team.

Bruce.

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Bruce,

the shaft and rockers set (214559XK) do not specifically mention hardened shaft. As for their shaft (TT1217) in the Tune section does. I do not consider this as a quality issue, Moss opted not to offer  the complete set with hardened shaft. Neither does Rimmer. So when interested in a hardened shaft, you need to buy the shaft and rockers seperately and hone them to the specified clearance.

Jochem

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3 hours ago, JochemsTR said:

Bruce,

the shaft and rockers set (214559XK) do not specifically mention hardened shaft. As for their shaft (TT1217) in the Tune section does. I do not consider this as a quality issue, Moss opted not to offer  the complete set with hardened shaft. Neither does Rimmer. So when interested in a hardened shaft, you need to buy the shaft and rockers seperately and hone them to the specified clearance.

Jochem

But the real issue for me is was the original BL shaft hardened as I believe that it was but have not tested it yet but I will check its Rockwell hardness . If it was not I would suspect that it would have been made from a high grade tensile steel. I my experience Moss have a very bad record on harness, you only have to look at the saga on lay shafts which went on for 25 years before they got the message. It was me that sorted that out?

Bruce.

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Bronze bushes in the rockers likely obviate hardened shafts. Originals were not bushed, but ran directly on the rocker shaft. Maybe the shafts were intended to be sacrificial and the rockers to endure...anyway, they were good for ~ 50K miles.

The leading rebuilder of these in the 'States uses hard chrome plating on the shafts with bronze bushed rockers. These seem not to wear, at least with the auxiliary oil feed line ( over 100K miles on one of mine ).

 

Tom 

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The cast iron of the rockers will provide good lubrication. Cast iron against (surface) hardened steel is a good combination, but if the rockers are bronze-bushed (not brass), this is even better. Cost savings were important I guess.

I would prefer to have a hardened shaft and ream the rockers myself, so minimal clearances can be obtained.
 

My 2 cents on the external oil feed: on my engine, prior to rebuilding, it took 5-10 mins after a cold start before some (very little) oil appeared, this has not improved much after my rebuild, despite very good oil pressure and all tolerances within spec. I had a lot of wear on my old rocker shaft, so replaced it by a good SH one. I have the tuftrided shaft from Moss, it looks well made, but have not installed it yet. 
As long as the oil pressure is good, I am tempted to install the by-pass (external rocker feed) with an orifice, maybe it is not strictly needed, but I just don’t like an un-lubricated rocker shaft. I don’t think it will affect oil pressure (flow) to the bearings much, given the high flow rate of the oil pump.

Waldi

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I have the Moss shaft, bushed rockers & solid spacers on my rebuilt engine, I checked the oil supply and it appears to be good so far. I'd had the external feed on my previous engine as there was a blockage somewhere, hence my checking on the new one.

Ian

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1 hour ago, Waldi said:

The cast iron of the rockers will provide good lubrication. Cast iron against (surface) hardened steel is a good combination, but if the rockers are bronze-bushed (not brass), this is even better. Cost savings were important I guess.

I would prefer to have a hardened shaft and ream the rockers myself, so minimal clearances can be obtained.
 

My 2 cents on the external oil feed: on my engine, prior to rebuilding, it took 5-10 mins after a cold start before some (very little) oil appeared, this has not improved much after my rebuild, despite very good oil pressure and all tolerances within spec. I had a lot of wear on my old rocker shaft, so replaced it by a good SH one. I have the tuftrided shaft from Moss, it looks well made, but have not installed it yet. 
As long as the oil pressure is good, I am tempted to install the by-pass (external rocker feed) with an orifice, maybe it is not strictly needed, but I just don’t like an un-lubricated rocker shaft. I don’t think it will affect oil pressure (flow) to the bearings much, given the high flow rate of the oil pump.

Waldi

On a six pot with cold oil up to five minutes is ok don’t fit a second feed

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Thanks Neil. I will do another check when my car is back from the bodyshop, hopefully early next year.

Best regards,

Waldi

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I fitted a second feed last year after valves # 1 and 2 were running dry and the rockers and shaft were ruined. I know the debate regarding the feed. But I was not able to find the root cause. The thru holes were clear. Since I had a big trip coming up, I installed the feed, rather than removing the head. Sofar I have not experienced any loss of pressure ( I attached the feed at the far most aft). The only disadvantage I learned that the oil filler caps are not really closing properly and some oil likes to pass around it. I installed a new cap, we will see whether my valve cover remains having some drops of oil on it.

For my second engine I plan to install the Goodparts Rockers/Shaft.....my understanding was that such needle bearings need proper lubrication which can only provided by a second feed. Correct?

Jochem

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Hi Jochem,

I did not find a cause for my lack of oil (after a cold start) too. I hoped, with the tighter clearances of the better SH shaft that I had less leakage at the most rear rockers, but did not see much improvement. The “pump” for the rockershaft oil feed is a flat face on the rear camshaft bearing journal, as you will know. That looked ok, and the bore was clean.

It’s just designed like this  I guess.

Waldi

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Having costed the options for rebuilding the rockers, I went the roller rocker route, bought from the USA less than half the cost of buying from UK supply for the standard replacement upgraded items. even after paying delivery import tax and VAT.I did replace the shaft with a Nitrided item which has avery hard surface and softer core The roller rockers have slightly more lift ratio, higher lift is available, as to benefit well certainly quieter engine running and may be more power, feels more pep but this could be all in the mind.Also fitted the solid spacer kit , several attempts to get the spacing correct with the shims patience is required. I am happy with the results, I am sure many will say it is a wast of time but you can save your cash outlay.

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My set of bushed rockers lasted about 30Tkm.

Reason like many other new rockers is the not hardened tip that killed also the tip of the valve stem.

I use a fast road cam but valve springs close to CP data.

Although the bushings had been superior the rest was ready for the bin.

Never again. I am now on rollers from Goodparts, expensive and loud but reliable.

 

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On 12/3/2019 at 5:18 AM, JochemsTR said:

I fitted a second feed last year after valves # 1 and 2 were running dry and the rockers and shaft were ruined.

For my second engine I plan to install the Goodparts Rockers/Shaft.....my understanding was that such needle bearings need proper lubrication which can only provided by a second feed. Correct?

Jochem

I use the second oil feed during running in and there is plenty of oil coming into the head and a bit leaving through the breather.

My intention was to prevent cam from running dry.

Later I reduced oil pass to a orifice 0.8mm.

There is few oil coming normally into the rocker shaft. It finds its way somewhere and maybe it drops out before the most far rockers are reached. That can be prevented by second oil feed but beware of head swimming in oil. By the way it will pass the valve guide into inlet so rubber caps are needed.

I did read the recommendation that rollers should have additional oil. I would expect needles do not need that, but Goodparts will know better but anyway I would limit oil splash with an orifice what size ever. Most important is to reduce spring power. Valve lift is much higher and springs might bind.

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Jochem,

You know the debate about the external oil feed, so I won't repeat why it is Ye Spawnne of Ye Deville!    An awful invention sold by uncaring dealers.

Your worry was that Nos. 1 and 2 rockers were dry, and say that the rocjkers and shgaft were ruined, by which you menat they were worn?     I would suggest that this was true of the others as well.   The original deisgn does provide a limited supply of oil to the rockershaft - perhaps better called "metered"! - because the need is small.    But the supply to the rockers is from one end of the hollow shaft.  If wear increases the flow through the rocker bearings, then the rockers on the end of the line will run short - Nos. 1 and 2.

John

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