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Jo Neyskens

Instruments (OIL, TEMP, AMP, FUEL) on an early TR4 (feb 1962)

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Hi , I have an early tr4 myself (chassis around 6800). After some research, it turned out that my tr4 must have instruments with long needles. This like the tr3. My question was what about the lighting? My instruments (with short needles) have a light for each on the back. The tr3 instruments have two central lights, I thought. Is this correct? So for my tr4, do I have to have instruments with long needles and the system of two central lights (TR3) or the back of the new model (short needles TR4) and the front of a TR3 (convex glass, long needles). I hope someone can help me out :).

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Hello Jo,

My TR4 is late 1962 so I don't have personal knowledge of your problem. However I understand that the 4 early type small gauges with curved glass and exposed needles were fitted up to body number 15053CT for RHD cars and CT11308 for LHD cars. It would seem therefore that your car should have the early gauges regardless of whether it is RHD or LHD. 

The TR4 Workshop manual, Section 5, page 233 states when referring to the 4 small gauges: 

"All instruments are secured to the panel with bridge clamps and knurled nuts. On early cars these instruments have rim lighting and on later models individual illumination of instruments is employed. Where the later type of illumination is used the bulb holders must be withdrawn from the sockets before an instrument is removed from the panel."

On the same page there is a diagrammatic drawing of the reverse view of the instrument panel and the exposed fascia around it, showing the early type gauges. This appears to show two bulbs retained behind the fascia  which would sit behind the removable panel in the area to the right  and left of the fuel and oil gauges. The wiring must therefore presumably have been different in this area for earlier and later cars.

I hope this is of some help.

regards

Trevor

Edited by Trevor S

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Hi Jo,

My TR4 is a little earlier than yours and has all four gauges with long/exposed needles (like your oil pressure and Amps gauge).  I defer to Trevor on when the change came, but I'd be pretty certain that yours should be like mine.

I have two lights that sit between the gauges; one on the left, one on the right.  To be honest, they're not very good at illuminating the gauges, so I'm not surprised that this was changed!!

If you need any photos to help, let me know.

Cheers,

Tim

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4 hours ago, TorontoTim said:

Hi Jo,

My TR4 is a little earlier than yours and has all four gauges with long/exposed needles (like your oil pressure and Amps gauge).  I defer to Trevor on when the change came, but I'd be pretty certain that yours should be like mine.

I have two lights that sit between the gauges; one on the left, one on the right.  To be honest, they're not very good at illuminating the gauges, so I'm not surprised that this was changed!!

If you need any photos to help, let me know.

Cheers,

Tim

Hi, thanks for your response !! Good to know. Then I continue looking for the other meters (FUEL / TEMP). I hope I can still find them. Could it be that they are made new again (Rimmerbros)? I thought the early TR4 used fronts of the TR3 (long needles, curved glass) and the back of the new meters (with light on every meter). So I was wrong. They just used the old system (TR3). Also at the back. Can you possibly send some photos, also from the back? Then I can see where I should place the lights correctly. Thanks!!!!! :)

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On 11/27/2019 at 6:52 PM, Trevor S said:

Hello Jo,

My TR4 is late 1962 so I don't have personal knowledge of your problem. However I understand that the 4 early type small gauges with curved glass and exposed needles were fitted up to body number 15053CT for RHD cars and CT11308 for LHD cars. It would seem therefore that your car should have the early gauges regardless of whether it is RHD or LHD. 

The TR4 Workshop manual, Section 5, page 233 states when referring to the 4 small gauges: 

"All instruments are secured to the panel with bridge clamps and knurled nuts. On early cars these instruments have rim lighting and on later models individual illumination of instruments is employed. Where the later type of illumination is used the bulb holders must be withdrawn from the sockets before an instrument is removed from the panel."

On the same page there is a diagrammatic drawing of the reverse view of the instrument panel and the exposed fascia around it, showing the early type gauges. This appears to show two bulbs retained behind the fascia  which would sit behind the removable panel in the area to the right  and left of the fuel and oil gauges. The wiring must therefore presumably have been different in this area for earlier and later cars.

I hope this is of some help.

regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor, thanks for the reply!! I just checked the workshop manual :). Gz from Belgium!!

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Two of the early TR4 gauges are not the same as TR3 gauges, and will not work in a TR4 without some effort. Fuel gauge is different type of ‘mechanism’ with a different sender unit, water temp gauge uses an electrical sender rather than the sidescreen bulb type, oil pressure may possibly be the same, albeit with a different number on the gauge. It’ll work in the same way, and ammeter may well simply have a different number on the gauge.

Of course, they look very similar.

David

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2 hours ago, david ferry said:

Two of the early TR4 gauges are not the same as TR3 gauges, and will not work in a TR4 without some effort. Fuel gauge is different type of ‘mechanism’ with a different sender unit, water temp gauge uses an electrical sender rather than the sidescreen bulb type, oil pressure may possibly be the same, albeit with a different number on the gauge. It’ll work in the same way, and ammeter may well simply have a different number on the gauge.

Of course, they look very similar.

David

Hi David, thanks for the reply!! The gauges of my tr4 were all short needles. I have already replaced the OIL and AMP. This works without problems. Simply take out and insert the original (exposed needles). So now I am looking for FUEL and TEMP. What do you mean with different type of 'mechanism' with different sender unit? The temp gauge from a TR3 works with a cable and sensor I think. It is not electric but capillair I think? You do have electrical water gauges . Maybe those are the first TR4 meters? 

Edited by Jo Neyskens

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4 hours ago, Jo Neyskens said:

Hi, thanks for your response !! Good to know. Then I continue looking for the other meters (FUEL / TEMP). I hope I can still find them. Could it be that they are made new again (Rimmerbros)? I thought the early TR4 used fronts of the TR3 (long needles, curved glass) and the back of the new meters (with light on every meter). So I was wrong. They just used the old system (TR3). Also at the back. Can you possibly send some photos, also from the back? Then I can see where I should place the lights correctly. Thanks!!!!! :)

Hey Jo - happy to send photos but, unfortunately, I'm just starting a couple of weeks of travelling so won't be able to do it until I get back.

So long as you are ok waiting, I'll get them done when I get back home. 

Tim

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Jo

I am sure David will confirm shortly but the fuel gauges in the TR3s used a different mechanism to those in the TR4s. The latter used a heated bimetal strip within the gauge to operate it and requires a voltage stabiliser.

In both instances (TR3s and TR4s) the tanker sender must be matched to the type of gauge being used; they are not interchangeable.

The early TR3 Jaeger Fuel gauges are pretty rare (but come up on eBay occasionally at a price) but the matching senders are even rarer ('hen's teeth'). There do not appear to be new replacement senders manufactured. The usual suppliers can supply refurbished early fuel gauges and senders but I think only on an exchange basis.

My 3A had a later TR4 fuel gauge. Fortunately, I was able to acquire a 3A gauge and a matching sender but over a period of several years.

Miles

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Just to add to Miles's excellent description, the senders actualy work the  opposite way round -

early sensors give reducing resistance as the tank is emptied, later ones increase resistance as tank is emptied.

Also the later ones require a voltage stabiliser (also used on later temperature guage)

Bob.

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When I bought my TR3a the gauges were a mixture.  I acquired at various times a correct set of gauges and had them refurbished.

When it came to putting it all together the fuel gauge didn't work and after some research I discovered that the the sender was working in reverse to the gauge so I removed the cover on the sender and reversed the connections inside and voilà it worked.  To be honest it isn't very accurate - it stays on full for a long time and the needle only starts to move away from full when the tank is about half empty.  It then races down to 1/4 tank at which point I know to fill up.  Presumably I have one of the hen's teeth early senders.

Rgds Ian

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11 hours ago, TorontoTim said:

Hey Jo - happy to send photos but, unfortunately, I'm just starting a couple of weeks of travelling so won't be able to do it until I get back.

So long as you are ok waiting, I'll get them done when I get back home. 

Tim

Ok, no problem :). I will wait for it. Thanks!!

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55 minutes ago, MilesA said:

Jo

I am sure David will confirm shortly but the fuel gauges in the TR3s used a different mechanism to those in the TR4s. The latter used a heated bimetal strip within the gauge to operate it and requires a voltage stabiliser.

In both instances (TR3s and TR4s) the tanker sender must be matched to the type of gauge being used; they are not interchangeable.

The early TR3 Jaeger Fuel gauges are pretty rare (but come up on eBay occasionally at a price) but the matching senders are even rarer ('hen's teeth'). There do not appear to be new replacement senders manufactured. The usual suppliers can supply refurbished early fuel gauges and senders but I think only on an exchange basis.

My 3A had a later TR4 fuel gauge. Fortunately, I was able to acquire a 3A gauge and a matching sender but over a period of several years.

Miles

Hi Miles, thanks for the reply!! So if I can find a elektrical FUEL gauge from a TR4 (with long needles), it will work?

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2 hours ago, Lebro said:

Just to add to Miles's excellent description, the senders actualy work the  opposite way round -

early sensors give reducing resistance as the tank is emptied, later ones increase resistance as tank is emptied.

Also the later ones require a voltage stabiliser (also used on later temperature guage)

Bob.

Hi Bob, aren't the meters on the TR3 right? It is apparently no problem to convert for OIL and AMP. My OIL just has 1 connection of the oil cable. The AMP simply has 2 electrical connections. Both without lamps on the body. What about the TEMP and FUEL? Do I have to search for TR3 meters or early TR4 meters (are they different?)?

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Hi Jo. I am not sure when the change to "bimetalic" gauges happened, all TR2/3/3A gauges are the early type (magnetic fuel gauge & capilliary temp gauge.)

Wiring diagrams suggest the change happened with the 1st TR4

Bob.

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On 11/29/2019 at 12:03 PM, Jo Neyskens said:

Hi Bob, aren't the meters on the TR3 right? It is apparently no problem to convert for OIL and AMP. My OIL just has 1 connection of the oil cable. The AMP simply has 2 electrical connections. Both without lamps on the body. What about the TEMP and FUEL? Do I have to search for TR3 meters or early TR4 meters (are they different?)?

 

1 hour ago, Lebro said:

Hi Jo. I am not sure when the change to "bimetalic" gauges happened, all TR2/3/3A gauges are the early type (magnetic fuel gauge & capilliary temp gauge.)

Wiring diagrams suggest the change happened with the 1st TR4

Bob.

Jo

I agree with Bob but as he has a TR3 and I have a 3A, hopefully a TR4 owner will be able to confirm definitively the position for an early 4.

Not sure if it is relevant to the TR4 gauge, but in the side screen cars, a separate earth wire running from an eyelet between the furled knob and gauge bracket aids good gauge performance. 

Miles

Edited by MilesA

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Hi Jo

Your initial post made me look more closely at the gauges in my recently purchased early TR4, built in mid January 1962 with a chassis number in the low 3000's, which will soon be getting LEDs fitted.  With the exception of the ammeter (Lucas) all the gauges are Jaeger, all have long needles with domed glasses and chrome surrounds. These gauges are lit by a couple of central lights, this arrangement has been carried through from the TR3.  I see from your photo that you have a similar mixture of three Jaeger gauges and one Lucas ammeter, although you have two short needle Jaeger gauges. Maybe someone can tell us why the ammeters are Lucas and don't match the Jaeger gauges.

Attached is a photo of the rear of the gauges, with the lamp holder between the rear of the ammeter in the foreground and the fuel gauge to the rear. The lamp holder has red and white wires leading to it.

Hope this helps

Dave

20191130_134845.jpg

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The mix of Jaeger and Lucas goes all the way through 2/3/3a/4

Stuart.

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And it is not only on TRs. Jaguar also up to the 70s. 

I read somewhere it was a gentlemans agreement back in 40s or earlier. Smiths / Jaeger would not make Ammeters, that was unique for Lucas to do.

 

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On 11/30/2019 at 11:48 AM, Lebro said:

Hi Jo. I am not sure when the change to "bimetalic" gauges happened, all TR2/3/3A gauges are the early type (magnetic fuel gauge & capilliary temp gauge.)

Wiring diagrams suggest the change happened with the 1st TR4

Bob.

Hi Bob. Thanks for the info. I thought the early TR4 uses the gauges (leftovers :) ) of a TR3. Gz Jo

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On 11/30/2019 at 12:51 PM, MilesA said:

 

Jo

I agree with Bob but as he has a TR3 and I have a 3A, hopefully a TR4 owner will be able to confirm definitively the position for an early 4.

Not sure if it is relevant to the TR4 gauge, but in the side screen cars, a separate earth wire running from an eyelet between the furled knob and gauge bracket aids good gauge performance. 

Miles

Thanks for the reply, Miles! 

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On 11/30/2019 at 3:45 PM, DaveB66 said:

Hi Jo

Your initial post made me look more closely at the gauges in my recently purchased early TR4, built in mid January 1962 with a chassis number in the low 3000's, which will soon be getting LEDs fitted.  With the exception of the ammeter (Lucas) all the gauges are Jaeger, all have long needles with domed glasses and chrome surrounds. These gauges are lit by a couple of central lights, this arrangement has been carried through from the TR3.  I see from your photo that you have a similar mixture of three Jaeger gauges and one Lucas ammeter, although you have two short needle Jaeger gauges. Maybe someone can tell us why the ammeters are Lucas and don't match the Jaeger gauges.

Attached is a photo of the rear of the gauges, with the lamp holder between the rear of the ammeter in the foreground and the fuel gauge to the rear. The lamp holder has red and white wires leading to it.

Hope this helps

Dave

20191130_134845.jpg

Hi Dave, thanks for the info!! So you have also an early TR4, great :)!! I need to switch my two gauges with short needles (fuel, temp) into gauges with long needles. I am not sure that a tr3 gauge (temp, fuel) fits with my tr4. Do you have more pictures of the back and front of the gauges? So I can see what I need to have. 

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Hi Jo

I don't have any more photos of the rear of my gauges, I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days. Below is a photo of the front of the gauges, you'll note that a PO has fitted a wooden dashboard.

All the best Dave

20191130_134716 (1).jpg

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5 minutes ago, DaveB66 said:

Hi Jo

I don't have any more photos of the rear of my gauges, I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days. Below is a photo of the front of the gauges, you'll note that a PO has fitted a wooden dashboard.

All the best Dave

20191130_134716 (1).jpg

Hi Dave, nice wooden dashboard. Thanks for the pic. You have indeed all the right meters. Are your temp and fuel gauges both electric? 

 

On 11/30/2019 at 11:48 AM, Lebro said:

Hi Jo. I am not sure when the change to "bimetalic" gauges happened, all TR2/3/3A gauges are the early type (magnetic fuel gauge & capilliary temp gauge.)

Wiring diagrams suggest the change happened with the 1st TR4

Bob.

 

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On 11/30/2019 at 11:48 AM, Lebro said:

Hi Jo. I am not sure when the change to "bimetalic" gauges happened, all TR2/3/3A gauges are the early type (magnetic fuel gauge & capilliary temp gauge.)

Wiring diagrams suggest the change happened with the 1st TR4

Bob.

Hi Bob, So the gauges of the TR3 will not match an early TR4? (except for the OIL and AMP)

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