Birdseye Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 (edited) The attached sound file is a recording of the noise emanating from my gearbox. 1973 TR6 with J type O/D. I have owned the car since 1979. Taken off the road in 1982. 68K miles. The clutch and plate are 700 miles old. The thrust bearing squeals slightly and will probably need changing but I don’t suspect that it’s the thrust bearing which is causing this particular noise; however, I’m open to your opinion. The noise is progressively getting worse, hardly noticeable 400 miles ago. The noise occurs in every gear but only occurs when the gearbox is under load and stops when the throttle is eased back and the load released. It also occurs with or without the O/D engaged. I don’t think it’s the gearstick fizzing (I had a Triumph Herald which did that) There’s plenty of the correct grade oil in the box. New UJ’s on the prop shaft (700 miles) I suppose it could be coming from the O/D rather than the gearbox, but again open to ideas. Anyone heard this noise or any ideas before I remove the box and pull it apart. Many Thanks Ross TR6 Gearbox Noise.m4a Edited November 6, 2019 by Birdseye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
astontr6 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 47 minutes ago, Birdseye said: The attached sound file is a recording of the noise emanating from my gearbox. 1973 TR6 with J type O/D. I have owned the car since 1979. Taken off the road in 1982. 68K miles. The clutch and plate are 700 miles old. The thrust bearing squeals slightly and will probably need changing but I don’t suspect that it’s the thrust bearing which is causing this particular noise; however, I’m open to your opinion. The noise is progressively getting worse, hardly noticeable 400 miles ago. The noise occurs in every gear but only occurs when the gearbox is under load and stops when the throttle is eased back and the load released. It also occurs with or without the O/D engaged. I don’t think it’s the gearstick fizzing (I had a Triumph Herald which did that) There’s plenty of the correct grade oil in the box. New UJ’s on the prop shaft (700 miles) I suppose it could be coming from the O/D rather than the gearbox, but again open to ideas. Anyone heard this noise or any ideas before I remove the box and pull it apart. Many Thanks Ross TR6 Gearbox Noise.m4a 123.46 kB · 2 downloads Hi Ross, The favourite problem in the TR gear box is whining in the first 3 gears then disappears in fourth as the gear box goes into direct drive. This is usually caused by the lay shaft needle rollers going through the hardness layer on the lay shaft, My car suffered from this after 96K and 44 years of use. I had the gearbox/od rebuilt by ORS who also did the Stag mod to my lay gear by adding another needle roller to cure this known problem on a more permanent basis. But be warned there has been years of soft replacement layshafts being sold by the usual suspects which ended up in me having a big row with Moss who in my opinion were the main supplier of soft layshafts as they had sold me one which I had tested for hardness v my old original one in a non used area. There also have people on this Forum who suffered from soft lay shafts which have failed within 500 miles and examples of where the gear box guru has been caught out!!!! Bruce. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerrytr5 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 Does it also make the same noise in neutral which stops when you put your foot on the clutch? If so, sounds like the layshaft to me. Jerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 Hi Ross, PM sent - see envelope in top right hand corner Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted November 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 Thanks for the responses. I don't think it’s the lay shaft as your replies suggest that the noise would be there constantly but not in 4th which doesn't match the symptoms. The noise is there under load in all gears and disappears when the throttle is eased off. Also, it doesn't occur whilst coasting in neutral. It will have to come out sooner rather than later as I need to swap the thrust bearing (a job for the winter), but in the meantime I am still open to suggestions before I start to delve into what is sure to be a (cogmire) . Regards Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stagpowered Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 You say it was taken off the road in 1982. Has it been standing for the last 30 odd years? If it has I would hazard a guess at rust pitting in one of the bearing races or on the gear teeth in the overdrive. I don't think it would be layshaft as that gets worse in the first three gears, and in any case if it was caused by corrosion from standing, the layshaft would be immersed in oil so should be OK. I have had input shaft bearings get tired, but again they give similar symptoms to layshaft as it isn't under load in 4th gear, and the rear mainshaft gear also isn't really loaded when in 4th. There is a thrust bearing in the overdrive, but I can't remember whether it is loaded all the time or just when the overdrive is either in or out. Neil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisR-4A Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 Hi Ross, where did you get the new clutch from, it could be the clutch plate splines. Also check the bush is still in the crankshaft which supports the input shaft. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Hi Neil, Chris, I took the car off the road in 82 and 8 years ago I pulled the car apart completing a full rebuild early this year. Yes the gearbox has stood for almost 30 years. The gearbox was one of the only parts i didnt touch, however i did lift the lid to have a look at its general condition but all looked fine, oiled and no rust apparent. But I agree, standing around for that length of time may have taken its toll. I really cant recall which clutch and plate i used but i will search my invoices. Is there a particular make i should have steared clear of? thanks both Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rcreweread Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 20 hours ago, RogerH said: Hi Ross, PM sent - see envelope in top right hand corner Roger Ross - as per Roger's response above, I sent you a PM last night as well which, if I believe the forum system info, is showing that you haven't read it yet Cheers Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew Smith Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Sounds more like a clatter in the bell housing to me, maybe a clutch plate/release bearing/fork issue. Attached is a useful PDF on clutch fault diagnosis. Cheers, Andrew Clutches_Fault_Finding.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Thanks Andrew, i'll review the attached. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Quick update from a previous question. Clutch kit from Moss GCK6003X. B&B jargon from moss as follows. Raicam clutch systems are manufactured with the same care and attention to detail as the original equipment systems, giving you the cutting edge technology and approved quality trusted by leading vehicle manufacturers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted January 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Update on Gear Box Noise I removed the gearbox and stripped it down giving me the opportunity to give it a thorough inspection and clean. Contrary to the symptoms there was no wear on any of the bearings or the layshaft, in fact the gearbox was in an excellent state. I did take the opportunity to replace the needle bearings on the lay shaft and the filters on the overdrive which were thoroughly gummed up. What was causing the noise? My best guess is as follows: On examining the release bearing carrier there were 4 notches which had been created by the release fork. I suppose this wear should be expected after 68k miles. In addition, the release fork pins had also worn to such an extent that the release carrier bearing was able to spin on the release fork. The retaining roll pin was in place but because of the overall wear in all of these components it didn’t prevent the carrier from spinning. Additionally, and a common problem, the release fork retaining bolt had sheered. How it still operated the clutch is anybody’s guess. With all of the above in mind I believe the noise was created by the notches in the spinning release bearing carrier contacting the release fork pins and the resultant clicking whirring sound amplified by the bell housing. I replaced the above components including a new cross shaft lever cross drilled with a roll pin inserted. All is now quiet, or was for about 100 miles. The replacement release bearing has started to squeal – unbelievable – I suppose it will have to come out again – oh boy ☹ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Hi Ross, well hunted down. Did you fit a steel Release Bearing Carrier? Does the squeal happen when you press the pedal or without the pedal. If it happens without the pedal application, then consider using a slave cylinder return springs as pert he TR4. What release bearing did you use. there are some people that have rather exotic answers. A top quality RHP works very well. Not sure what Moss are selling these days but they did the RHP. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 My new release bearing was noisy from the start. When I had the gearbox rebuilt on 5000 miles after a botched rebuild (another story) the bearing was pretty rough. Interestingly TRGB provided a new one that was absolutely packed with grease. Jason their engine guru has built a jig to do this, we will see how it survives. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted January 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Hi Roger, I fitted a new steel carrier; beginning to wish I hadn't. The bearing came with the clutch. All parts from Moss. Clutch kit from Moss GCK6003X. B&B The squeal occurs when I apply pressure to the clutch pedal indicating to me that its the release bearing as it engages with the clutch. However, it does stop squealing depending on how far the clutch is engaged and conversely how far its released. It does not squeal on full release of the clutch. Another symptom - the clutch pedal is now sticking. I know its not the pedal itself as I made sure it was well lubricated when I rebuilt the pedal box 1000 miles ago. My thought here is that the steel carrier is sticking on the carrier sleeve and the pedal sticking is some sort of feedback through the hydraulics, but I'm open to suggestions. One other thing I should mention. When I replaced the release bearing and other components I left the extended push rod on the slave cylinder, I am beginning to wonder if I have applied too much pressure through the extended push rod and its damaged the entire mechanism. I have subsequently changed the extended rod for the standard length. While doing this I moved the lever arm by hand and it does feel a little bit sticky, however, there is no play so I am hopeful that I haven't broken another fork retaining pin. Regards Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Hi Ross, despite what a number of posters say there is nothing wrong with the steel Carrier. Mine came from the TRShop and works very well. The Release bearings are actually quite stiff to get rotating (I would have thought they should spin freely). So the squealing you hear is the bearing touching the diaphragm. Once the bearing starts to rotate the squealing stops. Give it some miles and it should sort itself. The sticky clutch more of an issue. Are you saying that when you release the clutch pedal the clutch itself takes time to catch up and gives something of a kick. This is probably what was known as 'Ratchet clutch'. When you refitted the GB did you put the special alignment bolts (2 off) in the correct place Item #117 https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/gearboxes-components/external-gearbox-tr5-6-1967-76.html If these have been fitted correctly (I hope they haven't) then the problem will lay inside the bell housing. I had this aaarrrgghhh The splined GB input shaft was not concentric with the extension nose that the release bearing carrier slides on. I had to fit a tapered shim to re-align it. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DIYBOSSCAT Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 Hi Ross, when my g'box was rebuilt a couple of years ago by ORS - they did a brilliant job - my clutch started sticking on release, out comes the box again and I found the carrier sticking on the sleeve. It had a couple of high spots. I used a file with oil then finished off with wet & dry with oil until it rotated smoothly and backwards/forwards. Iv'e had no problems with it since. Hope this helps. Regards, Vince. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mark69 Posted January 4, 2020 Report Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) Last year at IWE I purchased a full rebuild kit from ORS, this didn’t include clutch bearing or carrier, I stripped and rebuilt gearbox, replaced thrust bearing RHP and metal carrier (as above a lot of work to ease it freely onto the carrier sleeve). on start up gear box whisper quite, but when the clutch is engaged whirring noise very present. So far I have only managed driving her up and down the driveway got up into 3rd, changes gear lovely. Will this noise reduce once she as some road miles under her belt or do I need to think about taking box out again. Mark P.S replaced the bit in the flywheel also. Edited January 4, 2020 by Mark69 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Hi all, quick update on symptoms and answers to a couple of points made by Roger: Roger, in my haste to reinstall the gearbox I didn't realise that there were any alignment bolts. I have since read a similar topic on the forum which also mentions these bolts and the rough clutch behaviour if they are not fitted. It appears that this could be the answer to my problem but would it also affect the release bearing and account for the squeal? Do you think it would be possible to loosen all of the bolts and install the correct alignment bolts retighten rather than drag the box out of the car? I guess it would be worth a shot or would the misalignment have already damaged any of the internals? What I cant grasp is why the box and clutch ran well for the first few miles with no symptoms. Current Symptoms: With the engine off the clutch actuation is smooth. With the engine running and cold the clutch is still smooth but as it warms the clutch becomes very notchy to engage and a real pig to release - really sticky. Roger, the Ratchet Clutch is a good description. With the engine cold (initial start up and initial run) there is no squeal from the release bearing After a minute or so the release bearing squeals on initial engagement but stops as the clutch is engaged more, it also squeals as the clutch disengages. Thanks all Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, Birdseye said: Hi all, quick update on symptoms and answers to a couple of points made by Roger: Roger, in my haste to reinstall the gearbox I didn't realise that there were any alignment bolts. I have since read a similar topic on the forum which also mentions these bolts and the rough clutch behaviour if they are not fitted. It appears that this could be the answer to my problem but would it also affect the release bearing and account for the squeal? Do you think it would be possible to loosen all of the bolts and install the correct alignment bolts retighten rather than drag the box out of the car? I guess it would be worth a shot or would the misalignment have already damaged any of the internals? What I cant grasp is why the box and clutch ran well for the first few miles with no symptoms. Slacken everything off and fit the correct bolts in the correct positions. Current Symptoms: With the engine off the clutch actuation is smooth. If it is misalignment then the stationary diaphragm will not put the release bearing out. With the engine running and cold the clutch is still smooth but as it warms the clutch becomes very notchy to engage and a real pig to release - really sticky. Roger, the Ratchet Clutch is a good description. With the engine cold (initial start up and initial run) there is no squeal from the release bearing Possibly a light coat of oil mist has got on the diaphragm After a minute or so the release bearing squeals on initial engagement but stops as the clutch is engaged more, it also squeals as the clutch disengages. with the bearing just touching the diaphragm the bearing isn't actually rotating but skidding on the diaphragm and hence the squeal. With more pressure the bearing starts to rotate and the squeal stops. This may cure itself in time. Roger 18 minutes ago, Birdseye said: Thanks all Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 One of the chaps in the Cambfollowers has had his gearbox in and out 3 or 4 times over the last few months to try curing ratchet clutch on his car. It was suggested that he fit the missing alignment bolts so he slackened the bell housing bolts, fitted the 2 bolts and clutch cured. He still can't believe that these bolts made such a big difference so is getting about 100 miles on the clock before refitting the interior just in case. George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Hi George, as mentioned on another thread my 4A had 0.015" misalignment on the release bearing and this was enough to cause total chaos. GB in and out 3 or 4 times before I found the culprit. The 4A has dowels which were in place but the issue was the concentricity (or lack of it) between the GB splined input shaft and the GB extension nose that the carrier slides on. Still haven't a clue why it was out of alignment or why it started to play up after 200,000 miles or so. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Birdseye Posted January 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 All, just had a look at the bolts and unfortunatley they are NOT of the correct size so the chances are this is the problem, well, i sincerly hope so. I will post an update as soon as i have chance to refit the correct bolts - this maybe a few days. Many thanks for all the input. Regards Ross Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted January 5, 2020 Report Share Posted January 5, 2020 Rodger These old cars of our can be really fickle, I have just rebuilt my TR6 gearbox after running it for over twenty years with out a problem and all on the same clutch and no alignment bolts When I was putting it all back together I was amazed to find I had been running all this time with the flywheel spigot bush missing! Which no doubt why the missing alignment bolts didn't give a problem George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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