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F1loco

Engine bay cross member support ...

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So, attempted to button up the timing chain project this weekend when one of the bolts to the cam sprocket snapped whilst torquing.  Odd b/c the metal looked like it had crystalized, but I would think there wouldn't be enough heat cycles on it to cause the same from happening.  So in an attempt to make my life easier, I removed the cross support in front of the cam.  In the end, the left hand drill bit I bought got it out w/ease and didn't necessarily have to remove the cross member, but alas it's out.  Two questions -

1.  Is there an easy method to install this thing back in place?  A few choice words were used during its removal as it was in place with nuts and bolts, of which one was particularly difficult to access thanks to the radiator support tabs.

2.  Previous owner had mix match of bolts/nuts, a few of them have what appears to be cotter pin holes, a few are just standard bolts.  Would a good grade 5 bolt, lock washer, and some blue lock-tite suffice?  

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After using choice words !!   TRy jacking he front of the car up just a little with the jack in the middle of the chassis cross beam 

This will help spread the tops of the suspension turrets.

The bolt type is not important for keeping the cross member in place.

I would not bother with the loctite.

 

Roger  

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I think I'm right in saying the cross tube is held on by three 3/8 UNF bolts probably about 1" long  which fit into threaded holes in the turret - these in practice have nuts welded on the inside of the turret which are almost impossible to get to.

If the whole area has suffered bad corrosion, I can well imagine the welded nuts breaking free if the bolt is seized, in which case you would have little choice but to replace with a nut and bolt ( really fiddly I imagine).

Quite often the cross tube is difficult to fit as the turrets tilt inwards a little when it's removed. You have to spread them again to get it to fit, if you don't want to resort to using a big lump hammer to knock the cross tube into place.

 

Cheers Rich

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@F1loco

If you still have the bar out would you be kind enough the measure the overall width of to the outside of the plates please?

John

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1 hour ago, John L said:

@F1loco

If you still have the bar out would you be kind enough the measure the overall width of to the outside of the plates please?

John

Yes still out - unfortunately.   It's a bit difficult as the end pieces of the cross body are cut into the straight piece at angles.  Best I can say is 23.5" from top mounting hole to top mounting  hole; 24.5" from bottom hole to bottom hole; and 25" from middle hole to middle hole, if that makes sense?

Don

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+1 to what Roger said.
When I took the cross bar out of my TR4a, only the front was jacked up in the center of the cross support. I had to persuade it a bit with a rubber mallet, but it came out ok. However when I tried to refit it after doing some other work with the car on 4 jackstands, it wouldn’t go back in. I had to go back to original configuration, and it went in ok (albeit with a few more mallet taps).

Jim

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One more side question - the seal for the timing chain cover - which way is it supposed to go in?  The new one is the classic metal "u shape" with the rubber being seen on the open end. The one I removed actually appeared to be encased in metal all the way around.  My guess is the metal end goes in towards the front of the cover and the exposed rubber is closer to the engine?

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Thanks for the dimensions, so your car is a TR4 not an 4A?

The lip side of the seal should go towards the crankshaft, it will also have a spring like ring on the outer part of the lip, that helps the seal to grip the shaft/collar.

John

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On 10/28/2019 at 1:58 PM, John L said:

Thanks for the dimensions, so your car is a TR4 not an 4A?

The lip side of the seal should go towards the crankshaft, it will also have a spring like ring on the outer part of the lip, that helps the seal to grip the shaft/collar.

John

Correct a 4 not a 4A though I believe the block probably is. ;)  So when you say the "lip side" goes to the crankshaft, you are referring to the "open" side of the seal towards the engine/crank, correct?  

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Question, I have 5 longer bolts for the timing chain cover, 2 of which are the longest and go in the engine lift mount, 2 obviously go below the engine mount with nuts, but where do the others go?  Two of them appear to have a small shoulder.  I did notice on the bottom, I removed one of the bolts holding the plate to the engine and guessing that is where one goes?  When I checked the depth of the remaining holes with a small screwdriver, it would appear the second hole counterclockwise from the lift seems to go all the way through - is this where it goes?

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You may find the answer on this thread:

 

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Thanks.  Think I sorted that out now but ... wondering if my new crank sprocket is on backwards?  Moss Motor replacement, one side of is thicker than the other and I have the thinner side towards the engine?  Seems to turn fine, but before I button it all up, want to be sure?

Lastly, how in the world do I install the oil seal diversion plate?  It's got a cut key BUT, there is no key showing on the rear woodruff key and confirmed the sprocket gear is firmly against the shims?  Once I put the cover in, there is now way to be sure it is on the key furtherest away from the engine??  Urgh - so close to getting this done.

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Use a straight edge between the two pulleys, will tell if the alignment is correct. If the pulley has that much of an offset you should be able to see if its the correct way round, the cutout in the oil thrower is to allow the thrower to be fitted if the key is in place, its held tight buy the crankshaft nut.

John

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2 hours ago, F1loco said:

Figured a pic could help -

 

image.png.5b57613ba4f55d2488f596386b26bb88.png

Did this last week.  The thick bit goes to the engine.

See here for the one I took off.

Cheers

Peter W

 

Crank Sprocket.JPG  Second image is checking alignment of the two gears

29147D19-053C-4206-8491-A9C90804E742.jpeg
 

PS. The dish of the oil thrower goes toward the oil seal in the cover.

 

Peter W

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT

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I either have it dialed in perfectly or 180' out?   At full #1 intake value open on the lobe tip, I am 109.75 - 110.5 at the split.  Just don't know if I zero'd it out on the compression stroke?  When I did it, and reinstalled everything, I was getting like 79 on the split.  Then I put it at 180 and moved the degree wheel to zero and got the 110 split almost spot on.  BUT still concerned I could be 180 out?  Is there a sure fire way to determine TDC on the compression stroke?  Where should my rotor be pointing to at TDC on the compression stroke?   Looks to be at #3 lead?  Just don't want to button it up to have to disassemble it all over again - lol.

 

-Don

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UPDATE:  From what I am reading the #4 intake just begins it's decent on the compression stroke on #1.  That said, I think my dizzy may be 180 out but was working fine prior to deconstruction?  If I turn my degree wheel from 180 to 0, the rotor is pointing just past #1 at TDC (0').   So, do I simply remove the distributor and rotate it 180?  So dislike figuring out what previous owner's did incorrectly and correcting it.  For my 110' target, best I can get is 80+ degrees, so something is not right with the TDC at 0' where it is at.  Frustrating ...

 

-Don

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You can't just turn the dizzy because the drive key-way is offset Don. You would have to remove the drive shaft and turn that too. It may be easier just to swap the plug leads around in the dizzy cap. 

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I may be wrong but I understand that there are four positions for the large gear, each giving a difference of a 1/4 tooth, which could translate into your timing degree challenge.

Two positions by rotating same face out and two positions by reversing face and rotating - an early Triumph tuning trick??

Alf

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So, at TDC on the compression stroke (ie, the #4 intake valve just starts to descend open and both valves on #1 are not moving?), should my rotor be pointing towards #1 cylinder?  For some reason, it points more to the #3 cylinder, which has me scratching my head that the distributor was installed 180' out.  Is there an easy way to tell if my disturber is out 180 or my crank?  Trying to make this is correct as I can get it since it's all torn apart.

 

Don

 

 

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Here is my cam timing rig - It allows me to double check TDC of the piston to the timing wheel.(tall stud in the centre)  I also dot punch the back periphery of the crank and add a second timing pointer for TDC, this is away from the front of the engine where I am waving spanners etc. that may jolt the front pointer

image.jpeg

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT

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Just thinking.....dangerous I know. 
Has anyone ever found a measurable difference in tdc between no1 and no 4 cylinders?

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Not when you "Blueprint" the engine back to what it was supposed to be built like originally ie

Crankshaft journals and top deck of the block parallel (not good enough to have the engineering shop just plonk it on the miller/grinder and skim 10 thou of the deck face,) that only makes it parallel to the sump face...and blocks move around over 30-50 years. Measure by fitting dummy crankshaft and clocking crank journal to deck face at the front and rea of the block.

Crankshaft to be straight (within the thou) over the crankshaft journals, and the bigends ground accurately and exactly at 90 deg from the crank (aligned with one another) with equalised "throws".

Conrods to be exactly the same length when fitted including the new small end pins (gudgeon).

Pistons to be decked so that whatever variation there is in compression height (gudgeon pin to crown of piston, normally within 1/10s of thou of each other).  

Then the TDC difference is negligible too can't be measured, that's why you pay a lot of money to your engine builder.

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey

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Tangent Time....

If you are renewing the front oil seal what condition is the pulley hub that runs in the seal? 

Fitting a Speedisleeve  is the way to renew the sealing surface that will have rusted/pitted/gouged/worn since your engine was new

SKF 99175 or SKF 99174 is what I use.  99174 is 1/2" long and needs thinking about when fitting to get the new bit of the sleeve over the worn section of pulley shaft.  99175 is 3/4" long and does not need much thinking about when fitting.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-Speedi-Sleeve-99175/223480355925?hash=item3408779c55:g:MoEAAOSwPcVVqu5x

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