Z320 Posted August 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 Hi, we should go back to a simple question and simple answer: Can the caps on our TRs been locked careless without a special torque - because they are self-tightening? Yes - or no? Still all wire wheel TR drivers are invited to test it. Simply a permanent marker is needed. Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Z320 said: Hi, we should go back to a simple question and simple answer: Can the caps on our TRs been locked careless without a special torque - because they are self-tightening? Yes - or no? Still all wire wheel TR drivers are invited to test it. Simply a permanent marker is needed. Ciao, Marco I dont check torque, just hammer them up till tight then recheck after 50 miles when refitting from a wheel change. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harlequin Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 I am sure that there's a correct torque setting for wire wheels but I dont think Triumph were to fussed about it. After all the target customers were mostly youngsters who were more interested in lifestyle then the correct torque on a wire wheel, which is why the special tool supplied with the car was a version of a lump hammer. It is well established ttechnology which had been used for decades so as long as they didn't come adrift and cause warranty claims the combination of self tightening and a big hammer is ok George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's NOT confusing, it's very simple - two circles of different sizes in contact at one spot only (until fully tightened) the smaller one must rotate quicker than the larger one. Bob. (sigh!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Z320 said: Hi, we should go back to a simple question and simple answer: Can the caps on our TRs been locked careless without a special torque - because they are self-tightening? Yes - or no? Ciao, Marco The answer is no. Certainly not (..in all circumstance) do they self-tighten. Two cases I can speak of : When I bought my '66 S-type Jag (..an IRS car with wire wheels, I had a few years back) the rear of the car had a slight clonk. The independent classic-car pre-purchase inspection report (..what a waste of money !) suggested a U.J. or wheel bearing was on its way out. When I looked into it - the wheel was slightly loose and the spline was dry (..as were two other wheels). I removed the wheels, cleaned up the splines and their cones and liberally applied copaslip to each and then loosely tightened them, turned the wheel 180 degrees firmly shook it and tightened it a little more, and then another 90 deg turn and shake before a decent tightening. On inspection the splines and cone were in fair condition, but clearly had be driven while loose. Once tightened correctly each were fine (thereafter touring distances) and of course the noise was gone. A second experience I know of, but wasn't personally involved in, was of a TR4A with knock-on J.A.Pearce magnesium wheels, which lost a rear wheel when being towed on an A-frame trailer (with just front wheels off the ground). I don't know how tight the spinner nut was when the car set off - but it was steadily trailered some 150 miles (in America) or so before the wheel came off. This in turn tore into the rear wheel-arch before disappearing into the night. The dark-grey painted wheel was not found, nor the spinner, and the rear wing was a right-off. It seems to me that although a wheel spinner's handed thread might have a tendency not to loosen, and also Bob's cones being circles of (marginally) different diameter and in contact in one (very tiny) spot only might well tend to act in self tightening - these are insufficient to lift the weight of that corner of the car and to centralise the splined hub's cone. Perhaps the cone angle is just too steep. So., I'm inclined to believe the handed-thread will act to prevent the wheel spinners from working loose ..once correctly tightened, but to say they are actually self-tightening is a misnomer. IMO if you try to tighten the spinner with the weight of the car on the axle / hub you'll be very fortunate to get it tight. The wheel really needs to be clear of the ground and systematically turned - which with the aid of gravity and the inertia of the heavy hide, nylon, lead, or rubber faced mallet on a winged spinner will centralise the wheel and hub cones together. Only then should the tyre be lowered onto the ground for a final wack of that soft faced heavy mallet to pinch it up tight. As an aside : I did buy a brand new 'Thor' brand of nylon-faced mallet for the Jaguar, but in truth it was far too big n' cumbersome for getting in under the rear wheel-arch &/or to target the relatively small ear of a spinner. After just catching the bodywork once and then glancing the spokes of one of the wire wheels - I shelved it and much preferred to use a piece of softwood 4"x 2" (the target) and a nicely rounded builder's lump hammer ..very much more precise / easier to use.. Pete. Edited August 27, 2019 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Lebro said: It's NOT confusing, it's very simple - two circles of different sizes in contact at one spot only (until fully tightened) the smaller one must rotate quicker than the larger one. Bob. (sigh!) And the key thing to remember is that this process is driven by the weight of the vehicle on the rotating wheel, not the torque from the engine. The off-axis force - precession - and the clearance fit of the components, plus the slight elasticity of the materials allow the process to take place. The only part the engine plays is to drive the car forward, thus causing both front and rear wheels to rotate. Pete (Bfg) - I'm not yet convinced by your TR4A story, as there are always occasional anecdotes about wire wheels coming off. While I accept that there's more drag on a rear wheel, if what you say is true then I would expect more stories about front wheels making an unscheduled exit! The fronts are not driven, but undergo an intermittent retarding force (the brakes) which ought to drive the process - if true - in the other direction, loosening the wheel cap/nut. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Spit_2.5PI said: I'm not yet convinced by your TR4A story, as there are always occasional anecdotes about wire wheels coming off. While I accept that there's more drag on a rear wheel, if what you say is true then I would expect more stories about front wheels making an unscheduled exit! The fronts are not driven, but undergo an intermittent retarding force (the brakes) which ought to drive the process - if true - in the other direction, loosening the wheel cap/nut. I'm simply relaying the tale (..in my own words) as told to me by Raymond, the chap I'm buying the car off. As a direct experience, happening to him when he bought and collected the car, it was not from his point of view a fable. His plan and pre-arranged booking was to hire a full-length car trailer, from the seller's local U-haul depot, for him to collect the 4A, but at the time of collection there was no such trailer available at that depot, so he had to resort to using a dolly. Being rather annoyed by this circumstance, he then somewhat embarrassingly admits that he didn't think to check the wheels before trailering it (almost) home on that dolly. And that as he was buying an abandoned project - the wheel spinner might (..or might not) have already been loose (but I presume not obviously). So my point was simply ..in direct reply to Marco's query was - this particular spin-on wheel did not "self-tighten". Nothing more, nothing less. And as before .. 2 hours ago, Bfg said: So., I'm inclined to believe the handed-thread will act to prevent the wheel spinners from working loose ..once correctly tightened, but to say they are actually self-tightening is a misnomer. Pete Edited August 27, 2019 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 Just perhaps on that TR4A the splines / spinners had been fitted on the wrong side ? Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 All well and good theory, so explain why twin wheel vans have the rear wheel nuts threaded the opposite way on the same axle single wheel vans of the same model do not. No using the internet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stillp Posted August 27, 2019 Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 7 hours ago, Lebro said: It's NOT confusing, it's very simple - two circles of different sizes in contact at one spot only (until fully tightened) the smaller one must rotate quicker than the larger one. Bob. (sigh!) Perhaps in Bfg's example the spinner was so loose that it was effectively an ellipse in contact with a circle? Would that give rise to the same precession? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted August 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Hi, did some "experimental work" on my TR4A. First I put my tool (on the photo) back in pieces (tube off) so I was able to work like usuall with a hammer. Slacked each wheel with the "short wheel spanner" and a 800 gr. hammer (wheels on the floor), lifted this side of the car and put the cap off. Then re-tighted it by hand with the "short wheel spanner" as strong as poosible, than gave 2 "strong" punches with the 800 gr. hammer on it, let the wheel down to the floor and gave the cap 2 more punches. Then my 4 Edding marks have been close to be in line again.... Checked the torque, it was very different from wheel to wheel, about 130 - 180 Nm, locked them all up to 180 Nm and will drive with new marks for another test. I guess it will not be possible for the caps to self-tighten stronger, only self-locking. The Edding marks will show. Also I guess with 2 some more powerfull punches they will be locked with about 200 - 250 Nm. In future I use my tool again for about 200 - 250 Nm. Ciao, Marco edit: I realize the "short wheel spanner" has a longer lever than the "two eared cap", so the octagonal cap should be easyer to close tight respective with the same punches tighter. Edited August 28, 2019 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waldi Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 When I had cars with wire wheels I used to tighten my WW with a large wooded 2-eared spanner. This applies pure torque, no side-force, on the nut. Better for the bearings too. Waldi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisR-4A Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 Don’t trust torque figures when tightening two tapers together. A more consistent tightening would be to tighten until snug and then a further number of degrees say 15 or 20 using short octagonal spanner and hammer. Always put a light smear of lubricant on the tapers first. I leave a blob of grease up the middle of the adaptor so it’s always there when you need it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 20 hours ago, Bfg said: So my point was simply ..in direct reply to Marco's query was - this particular spin-on wheel did not "self-tighten". I understand now Pete, thanks. Cheers, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted August 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) Hi Chris, thank you for this information. Indeed yesterday in my garage from hand-tight to hammer-tight was about "some" degrees, maybe 15-20. I use no grease in the taperrd end where the cap is on and also no gease on the conus between wire wheel and adaptor. Ciao, Marco Edited August 28, 2019 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Carr Posted August 28, 2019 Report Share Posted August 28, 2019 If you really want to see if correctly fitted ww nuts self tighten try a few fast laps around Castle Combe circuit. I do not know if the result is 200 - 250 NM but it is more than plenty tight compared to the start. Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted August 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2019 (edited) Hi, what I have to add now is: last weekend (caps locked with about 200 Nm) I realized some "clonk-clonk" from the rear axle and thought it could be my diff. Today on the raod with about 180 Nm the "clonk-clonk" was an endless annoying "clonk-clonk, clonk-clonk, clonk-clonk" on every load change. After 10 miles checked the caps, the marks still in the same position, no self-tightening - and locked the caps with my tool with 300 Nm. From that on we had a wonderful drive for about 100 miles with no single "clonk". So finally I can realize no self-tightening on my TR4A and 300 Nm is the torque I will use to lock the caps. Ciao, Marco Edited August 31, 2019 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted September 1, 2019 Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 Hi Marco, the important thing is that by having the 'handed' spinners on the correct side of the car they did not UN-tighten. Although they did not tighten any more than your preset load they stayed on the car. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted September 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 Hi Roger, I agree with you. interesting yesterday was, when we started they have not been tight enough, did not self-tight while driving, but also did not un-tight themself while driving. Have a nice Sunday Ciao, Marco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
littlejim Posted September 1, 2019 Report Share Posted September 1, 2019 I had the unnerving experience soon after purchasing my 4A, of being overtaken by the rear driver's side wheel's spinner during one outing. Luckily I wasn't doing eleventy twelve, and the wheel stayed on while I pulled over to the side of the road. That's when I discovered that the spinners on the right hand side said 'left' and the ones on the left hand side said 'right'. After that the spinners were swapped over and belted on with the copper mallet. After that I couldn't care if Triumph (or God for that matter) told me they were self tightening, they were going to be belted with the mallet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.