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2 hours ago, stillp said:

Peasants are we, surely Ian.:P

The gas test wasn't correct then?

Pete

Pete, Who are you calling a 'Peasant'!

The instructions for the version of the gas test kit that I have says that it has to be carried out with the engine cold and coolant below 50 deg C. I suspect that the gas test didn't work because when the engine has cooled down the head gasket seals temporarily and there is no gas passing through the liquid.

Rgds Ian

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Head is now off and yep it had blown.  Quite difficult to spot but if you look at the attached photo at the point of the speech bubble you can see where the rolled edge of the cylinder head gasket just 'misses' the top edge of the liner.  If you compare it with the adjacent liner you can see the difference.  There is a corresponding build up of carbon on the face of the head gasket.  The liners were opened out at that point to accommodate the previous cylinder head which was aluminium and had been skimmed by about 50 thou and opened out for big valves.

The liner protrusions are all within spec.

Clearly if I try to refit a standard composite gasket I will have the same problem but I do have a solid copper gasket 1mm thick with plenty of meat in that area because in addition to it not having the rolled edge, the water passages are smaller than on the composite variety.

So I reckon I have two possible solutions:

  1. Refit the head with a solid copper gasket.
  2. Spend about £250 on parts replacing the liners (87mm), rings and Fo8s (and BE shells while I'm in there?) and probably another £30 - £40 for a machine shop to adjust the liner heights.

Option 2 would be the 'belt and braces' solution but it does involve a fair bit of work on top of the cost of the new parts.  How good a job does a solid copper gasket do? and what best to seal it with? Heldtite or Wellseal?

Any advice welcome.

Rgds Ian

PS I'm going to get the head checked for flatness anyway.

PPS The liners were shaped to accommodate larger inlet valves but if it had been the exhaust valves then there wouldn't have been any problems with the rim of the gasket.  So...if I rotated the liners the shaping would be in the right place but what are the chances of the deck heights being right?

2019-08-01 Cylinder Liners.jpg

Edited by Ian Vincent
To correct an error
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2 hours ago, iain said:

Hi Ian 

would be good to see the image. 

Iain

To give an opinion ...essential. 

Mick Richards

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Hi Ian, pdf ‘s are small files but can you load them to forum, I doubt it.

Try saving as a .jpg   Photo and reload .

Chris

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I find the issue somewhat minor as compared to what I dealt with a few years back - no protrusion. I would just skim the head and put a new copper gasket with RTV.

WhatsApp Image 2019-07-21 at 13.53.17(1).jpeg

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4 minutes ago, Drewmotty said:

+1.  It is shaped around the liners to match the cut out you have.  Any gasket overhang not sandwiched between head and liner will burn/ glow/ cause running on/fail. 

Peter W

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1 hour ago, Drewmotty said:

Thats what Im running with 89mm now, working fine. Not cheap but they just work. They are very similar to the ones we used to use when racing Jaguars as they would blow standard steel gaskets

Stuart.

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I have been using solid copper gaskets for 26 years - originally one, but two after I had to have the head skimmed (because, over 20 years ago, the water pump went whilst on a rolling road at full chat - head distorted as a result).

I used Wellseal because I had it on the garage shelf, but Weldtite should be at least as good.

Ian Cornish

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Many thanks for the helpful comments.  With regard to the solid copper head gasket, there seem to be two schools of thought, one says they are only good for engines that are stripped down regularly - i.e Racing, and there are at least two users on here who have no problems with them.

Because I don't want to have to remove the head again - it has already been off twice in the last 12 months, I have opted for what looks the safer option of an expensive composite gasket that will suit up to 89mm bores and should fit my liners.  I haven't however gone for the Racetorations version as TR Shop are offering a similar item at £90 instead of £138 with an undertaking that they will provide a refund (minus postage) if it doesn't fit.

I'll let you all know how I get on.

Rgds Ian

PS What's the view on using sealants with this type of composite gasket.  Does the fact that they have silicon beads around them mean that sealant is unnecessary?

Edited by Ian Vincent
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19 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Many thanks for the helpful comments.  With regard to the solid copper head gasket, there seem to be two schools of thought, one says they are only good for engines that are stripped down regularly - i.e Racing, and there are at least two users on here who have no problems with them.

Because I don't want to have to remove the head again - it has already been off twice in the last 12 months, I have opted for what looks the safer option of an expensive composite gasket that will suit up to 89mm bores and should fit my liners.  I haven't however gone for the Racetorations version as TR Shop are offering a similar item at £90 instead of £138 with an undertaking that they will provide a refund (minus postage) if it doesn't fit.

I'll let you all know how I get on.

Rgds Ian

PS What's the view on using sealants with this type of composite gasket.  Does the fact that they have silicon beads around them mean that sealant is unnecessary?

I would be paying the extra small amount (in the scheme of things) of cash for the Racetorations product. These people have raced & rallied these cars with success so should know a thing or to about their product. Do you know where the TR Shop originates from?

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The Racetorations 2 different head gaskets are the same price - £138.

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2 minutes ago, monty said:

I would be paying the extra small amount (in the scheme of things) of cash for the Racetorations product. These people have raced & rallied these cars with success so should know a thing or to about their product. Do you know where the TR Shop originates from?

Agreed Monty but I have had conversations with people who have been unhappy with Racetorations products / services.  Previous products that I have had from TR Shop have been good. In the end you pay your money and take your choice.  If it doesn't work I'll resurrect this post.  And once again many thanks for pointing me in a different direction.

Rgds Ian

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2 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Agreed Monty but I have had conversations with people who have been unhappy with Racetorations products / services.  Previous products that I have had from TR Shop have been good. In the end you pay your money and take your choice.  If it doesn't work I'll resurrect this post.  And once again many thanks for pointing me in a different direction.

Rgds Ian

 

2 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Agreed Monty but I have had conversations with people who have been unhappy with Racetorations products / services.  Previous products that I have had from TR Shop have been good. In the end you pay your money and take your choice.  If it doesn't work I'll resurrect this post.  And once again many thanks for pointing me in a different direction.

Rgds Ian

Whatever you decide Ian, all the best.

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The TR shop sell standard 83mm gaskets, & larger, They also do a much more expensive one for 87 -89mm liners. these have the thicker ring on the outside edge of the liners. OK if liner not damaged, but we had one fail (admittedly on an 83mm liner car) where there was a small chip out of one of the liners.

I would have thought the Ractorations one would be better as the bore holes are not round, but shaped to accomodate large valves.

Bob.

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44 minutes ago, Ian Vincent said:

Agreed Monty but I have had conversations with people who have been unhappy with Racetorations products / services.  Previous products that I have had from TR Shop have been good. In the end you pay your money and take your choice.  If it doesn't work I'll resurrect this post.  And once again many thanks for pointing me in a different direction.

Rgds Ian

Mine came from Racetorations, though admittedly I had it from them when they first had them and they werent that price :)

Stuart.

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41 minutes ago, Lebro said:

The TR shop sell standard 83mm gaskets, & larger, They also do a much more expensive one for 87 -89mm liners. these have the thicker ring on the outside edge of the liners. OK if liner not damaged, but we had one fail (admittedly on an 83mm liner car) where there was a small chip out of one of the liners.

I would have thought the Ractorations one would be better as the bore holes are not round, but shaped to accomodate large valves.

Bob.

Apparently the TR Shop one is also shaped for larger valves but if it doesn't fit it will go back.

Rgds Ian

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I use a Cometic head gasket on my 89mm engine with no problems since fitting. A lot cheaper than Racetorations although not sure of shipping charge to UK.

They are made to order so you can specify what size bore you require.

https://www.cometic.com/i-24765912-triumph-tr4-2138cc-2-2l-pushrod-4-cyl-1961-65-043-cfm-20-cylinder-head-gasket-88mm-gasket-bore-each.html?ref=search:https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cometic.com%2Fsearch.html%3Fq%3Dtriumph

Cheers

Graeme

Edited by graeme
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Used Cometic HG's on a number of boosted motors over the years and never had one fail.

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On 8/2/2019 at 2:33 PM, Ian Vincent said:

Apparently the TR Shop one is also shaped for larger valves but if it doesn't fit it will go back.

Rgds Ian

One of the local group sent his back and paid the premium at Restorations. 

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4 Gasket comparisons from stock

a Racetorations special gasket

an used original copper gasket

a packaged TR shop Lucas gasket

a genuine steel shim gasket

when the Racetorations item is placed on the others the cut outs required for odd chamber shape when the shroud is removed is quite obvious.

For my money if I had a milled head with the shroud removed I would use the Racetorations item or modify a steel shim to suit (what I have done in the past)

 

cheers

Peter W

411B4EBB-2380-499F-A87C-989BAE3A821F.jpeg

C180ADBC-DE1F-4E9E-8CD4-384FB429AA93.jpeg

E3C50B7F-6570-49B7-94A0-8E4DD2FC092C.jpeg

C8EEE005-56C6-4676-874B-D3183CD0C611.jpeg

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I even get the steel gasket to seal when I cut through the first ring and halfway through the second, coat with Wellseal both sides of gasket and head and block and away you go. I've done some terrible things to TR engines.

Mick Richards

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