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JJohn

ETHANOL FREE FUEL

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Once again, I am asking for your assistance.  A posting I saw recently on this section informed us that Esso Synergie Supreme+ is free of the dreaded ethanol.  It also reported that this did not apply in Devon, Cornwall, Teesside & Scotland.  Having suffered damage to the seals in a metering unit and internal collapse of flexible fuel lines, I contacted ESSO filling stations in North Yorkshire. All are supplied from Teesside.  ESSO head office was the next call.  I have now phoned twice but no help has been forthcoming.  How difficult can it be to send a text, email or make a 2 min phone call to tell me where the nearest station with ethanol-free fuel is located?  Web searches have proved negative.  Can the TR Forum guys offer any guidance?

I am in North Yorks, 17 miles north of York and am prepared to travel into West or East Yorks to collect.  

I see that 10% of this chemical will soon be finding its way into our fuel.  The politician (I prefer the description "hypocrite") announcing this change said that vehicles built before the year 2000 should not be affected.  All the damage to my TR6's resulted from using fuel with only 5% ethanol.  I have always used an additive claiming to protect against this problem, along with seals and flexible fuel lines, all of which claimed to be ethanol tolerant.

Jim

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I have always been lead to believe that it is only 10% & above ethanol that 'may' affect our cars & that 5% can be tolerated. Why on Earth can we not get a definitive answer to this problem along with a comprehensive list of the fuels & their content of ethanol. Why cannot this Club take some form of initiative in what could be an important issue? Surprised Jim that your car has had such problems with only 5% ethanol.

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I wonder if it is ethanol. BP Ultimate and maybe others are adding agents to remove deposits from fuel systems in a bid to gain mpg. 

Tesflon lined hoses and nitrile seals should be OK in 10% ethanol

http://www.efunda.com/designstandards/oring/oring_chemical.cfm?SM=none&SC=Ethanol#mat

However, ethanol can slowly oxidise in air in the MU to acetaldehyde that might well during winter layup split the diaphragm between the MU and castle.  Ive no idea if fuel stabilser additves prevent etoh oxidation

Peter

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1 hour ago, JJohn said:

How difficult can it be to send a text, email or make a 2 min phone call

You may be waiting some time, Jim. :mellow:

In the short term, a test kit like the one below will give you an immediate percentage figure at the pumps in your area :

 

ethnoltest.thumb.jpg.a4f975ec8dbc35b1777f6f253479c8ee.jpg

 

Here's Youtube's favourite motor mechanic, Scotty Kilmer . . . (in his own inimitable style :)):

 

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Some politician has been leant on to shift the wine lake and other crops used to produce bioethanol.

It is going to reduce the calorific value of the fuel.

These days petrol is almost considered a waste product of the oil industry with the key products being diesel, heavy oil for shipping and jet fuel along with stuff for the plastics/textile industries. Thus cutting petrol with 5 or 10% ethanol probably isn't going to significantly affect fossil fuel use but it will no doubt contribute to the profits of farmers growing grapes and making naff wine that hasn't got a market. Is that an efficient way of producing biofuels?

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3 hours ago, Andy Moltu said:

Some politician has been leant on to shift the wine lake and other crops used to produce bioethanol.

It is going to reduce the calorific value of the fuel.

These days petrol is almost considered a waste product of the oil industry with the key products being diesel, heavy oil for shipping and jet fuel along with stuff for the plastics/textile industries. Thus cutting petrol with 5 or 10% ethanol probably isn't going to significantly affect fossil fuel use but it will no doubt contribute to the profits of farmers growing grapes and making naff wine that hasn't got a market. Is that an efficient way of producing biofuels?

Agree, its green whitewash.

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Thanks once again for your comments.  I did receive a reply from ESSO yesterday, by email, with an attachment listing all filling stations which offer ethanol free  ESSO Synergie Supreme+ petrol.  As someone living in North Yorkshire, no one domiciled north of Birmingham will be at all surprised when  the information supplied by ESSO confirms that the North/South Divide is alive and well.   Of the 145 sites on the list, the most northerly available ethanol free ESSO fuel is in Rotherham.  There are two sites there, approximately 60 miles distant from my home.  There are a few in the Midlands and the remainder are further South.  Is that a surprise?  NOT to anyone OOP NORTH!

All the filling stations on the ESSO list are operated by TESCO.  Does this mean that the advice of many pundits claiming that supermarket fuel is not to be trusted, should be reviewed?

Yesterday, I had a phone conversation with someone in the "Product Tech Team" at Shell UK in an attempt to discover the ethanol content of their VPower fuel.  I was informed that it is "up to a maximum of 5%"  but that this varies depending on the season.  When I asked by how much and in which season was it at the lowest level, there was no clear response. The reply to asking whether it ever arrived at the forecourt with no ethanol was an emphatic "no".

Make of all this what you will.  I agree with Peter - more green whitewash.

Jim

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Hi Jim,

Interesting reading.

At the risk of appearing to be a lazy sponger, any chance of seeing that list of stations from Esso ??

Im sure many others would welcome the opportunity to find an ethanol free fuel source.

I am about 30 miles south of Rotherham, so may qualify as a softy southerner who deserves access to proper petrol !

Best,

Chris

 

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For a number of years I have tried to use Tesco's Momentum 99 RON fuel whenever I can, my TR6 likes it and I like the price and the points. I would be even happier if it does not contain ethanol.

Ethanol is the biggest greenwash ever. How much farmland and precious water worldwide is diverted away from feeding people to produce a rubbish fuel that carries oxygen around and absorbs water? How much primary and secondary rain forest has been burnt down to plant crops for Ethanol or bio-diesel? The primary exponents are the USA and Brazil, the first driven by security of supply for the military and the second by self-sufficiency driven by economics. Need to calm down now.......

Can you publish the list from Esso?

Mick

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+1

I fill all my classics with Tesco Momentum whenever I can get it. Lucas PI on my TR6 hasn't protested yet.

Nigel

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My local ESSO station in the Heathrow area (West London) has an E5 sticker on all petrol pumps - I wonder what is inside !!

 

Roger

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I totally agree with the comment about Ethanol being 'Greenwash'.  The problem with fossil fuels is not that the earth will run out - EVER - it's that if we burn all the existing known reserves of fossil fuel, the earth will become uninhabitable.  We need less fuel, not more.

Rgds Ian

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I have taken the precaution of asking for the approval of ESSO before posting the list with which they have provided me.

Jim

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A slight digression from the topic, for which apologies, but maybe of interest as background.

There was an article about ethanol published in the magazine from the dark side ....(Safety Fast).... back in February, written by a chap called Paul Ireland.  The degradation to rubber pipes and seals etc are acknowledged but these are fairly easily replaced with better materials.  To me the worst problem seemed to be in the corrosion of metals which he discussed. 

Water getting into a petrol tank, in the form of raindrops or similar, absorbs the ethanol out of the petrol and sinks to the bottom of the tank. This can also occur from long-term storage in a cold and damp environment if droplets of condensation form in the tank. Once present the water droplets will not re-combine with the petrol. It appears that this water/ethanol mixture is extremely corrosive and as it sits in the same place all the time it will eat into the metal, steel or aluminium. The same thing happens if droplets get through to the float chambers.  (Additives sold as ethanol-cures cannot do anything about this though they may help to minimise galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals which is another problem).

My take on this is don't re-fuel in the rain, don't be too enthusiastic with the hose near the petrol cap when washing the car  - and don't let condensation form in the petrol tank over the winter, even if it's empty of petrol.

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2 hours ago, RogerH said:

My local ESSO station in the Heathrow area (West London) has an E5 sticker on all petrol pumps - I wonder what is inside !!

 

Roger

and E5 meens ?  ya or na

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E5 ...no more than 5% bioethanol in the product.

Edited by iain

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3 hours ago, RobH said:

A slight digression from the topic, for which apologies, but maybe of interest as background.

There was an article about ethanol published in the magazine from the dark side ....(Safety Fast).... back in February, written by a chap called Paul Ireland.  The degradation to rubber pipes and seals etc are acknowledged but these are fairly easily replaced with better materials.  To me the worst problem seemed to be in the corrosion of metals which he discussed. 

Water getting into a petrol tank, in the form of raindrops or similar, absorbs the ethanol out of the petrol and sinks to the bottom of the tank. This can also occur from long-term storage in a cold and damp environment if droplets of condensation form in the tank. Once present the water droplets will not re-combine with the petrol. It appears that this water/ethanol mixture is extremely corrosive and as it sits in the same place all the time it will eat into the metal, steel or aluminium. The same thing happens if droplets get through to the float chambers.  (Additives sold as ethanol-cures cannot do anything about this though they may help to minimise galvanic corrosion from dissimilar metals which is another problem).

My take on this is don't re-fuel in the rain, don't be too enthusiastic with the hose near the petrol cap when washing the car  - and don't let condensation form in the petrol tank over the winter, even if it's empty of petrol.

I suspect, but dont have a link to support, that E10 will be better at holding that water in suspension than E5.

IIRC propanol added to the fuel will keep thw water-ethanol from separating out. Did have a link but its dead

http://www.esstronic.com/fuel/ipa-e.htm

 

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold

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I think the point was Peter, that this isn't water separating out of a saturated mixture by phase change - its going in as water droplets and stays that way.

This is interesting and supports what you say:

https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Evaluation-of-Water-Uptake-by-Ethanol-RFA-09-16.pdf

This is pertinent too:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

Edited by RobH
added link

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On 7/31/2019 at 3:54 PM, RobH said:

I think the point was Peter, that this isn't water separating out of a saturated mixture by phase change - its going in as water droplets and stays that way.

This is interesting and supports what you say:

https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Evaluation-of-Water-Uptake-by-Ethanol-RFA-09-16.pdf

This is pertinent too:

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

Rob,  Ah, yes, hadn't thought of that - preformed water droplets picking up etoh. Nasty. Our TR7 did that, the recessed filler filled with water, about a litre had to be drained form the tank.

I live a 40 mile retrun trip from the nearest 97 RON, so am building water injection so I can run 10 psi boost on 95 and get effectively 105-ish. Good stuff, water.....but in the right place !

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold

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I have received a reply from Esso on the subject of sharing the list of those stations selling ethanol free Synergie Supreme+.  The wording used is:  "We would like to kindly ask you to only share the list privately and not on the internet on any platform."  I am not going to ignore their request and I don't relish the prospect of being bombarded with requests for the address of everyone's nearest filling station. 

Jim

 

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There is only one forum member on here that does know the true facts on petrol,Esso and ethanol :rolleyes: and no it is not me :ph34r:

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Jim,

I have since discovered the Esso phone ‘app’ which has an interactive map showing location of all Esso Stations and the fuel grades they offer - so you can ignore all  further requests for Esso locations, or refer people to the app.

Chris

56 minutes ago, JJohn said:

I have received a reply from Esso on the subject of sharing the list of those stations selling ethanol free Synergie Supreme+.  The wording used is:  "We would like to kindly ask you to only share the list privately and not on the internet on any platform."  I am not going to ignore their request and I don't relish the prospect of being bombarded with requests for the address of everyone's nearest filling station. 

Jim

 

 

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12 hours ago, cjstoodley said:

Esso phone ‘app’ which has an interactive map showing location of all Esso Stations and the fuel grades they offer

Chris, but does the "app" tell you if the Synergie Supreme+ in each filling station is ethanol free, as per Jim's list?

Cheers, Richard

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Even if the stuff in your local fuel station contains no ethanol today, with the next delivery it might. Perhaps rather than agonising on the point we should assume it all does - change pipes and seals accordingly and just carry on enjoying driving TRs while we still can?

 

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