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Hi Pete,

Point 1.  No you cannot get the flywheel drilled for the bolt on ring gear due to size and that it fits from the clutch side of the flywheel.    Humble Pie Time.  This statement is wrong

Point 2.  What cleaning fluid do you use in your wash tank?  It looks to be quite effective.

Point 3.  If you suspect the push rod tubes may leak, re-swage them top and bottom with a coned punch or big ball bearing.  That approach worked for me.

Cheers

Peter W

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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2 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Point 2.  What cleaning fluid do you use in your wash tank?  It looks to be quite effective.

Indeed a very good question.

The tubes you could plug from below with cork and fill them up with oil.

This advice costs you 8 bottles of wine.

You could safe 4 bottles and do it two times with 4 corks - but that is half the fun...

Edited by Z320
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3 hours ago, brenda said:

Evening Pete, I am enjoying your engine strip down. As you did not see you engine running you will have no idea if you push rod tubes are leaking. I don’t know if you can check them or if your sending cylinder head away if they can check them, mine let a lot of oil past so will be have my head rebuilt and having the tubes changed.

Mike. Redrose group 

Thanks Mike - that's useful advice,  as indeed is Peter W's  suggestion to use a ball or similar to re-swage the tubes tighter. 

I was particular in noting where oil leaks were from, before I first cleaned the engine.  And the residue suggests that not a lot was seeping from any particular tube . .

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Of course, now that I know to look for this potential issue I might have to buy some wine to test the scenario, and then to be sure.. to repeat the test with new corks.  :rolleyes:

 

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.

This afternoon I continued cleaning 'bits'. One thing I was concern about was the wear in the oil pump. .

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^ this is the oil pump and strainer before I took it off so that I might clean inside. 

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^   And the (external) oil filter - after a first clean, while still fitted to the block. But then put aside in a work tray.

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^ After a good scrub, and with the gauze strainer removed I thought it prudent to mark which way around the pump's cap was fitted.  Centre punch was hardly visible on the cast iron surface so I just opened those out with a 3mm drill, not at all very deep. 

Yeah OK., in retrospect ;  the base of the pump points which way the cap goes !  Sometimes I just can't see the obvious for all the crud. 

moving on . . .

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^ four 1/2" AF hex head screws secure the cap. Inside there's just the spindle and rotor.

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^ cleaned up sufficiently to handle and measure ..and man were they filthy !  oil pump parts and drive in the left hand tray and the oil filter housing and can in the right.

- - -

The oil pump is visually assessed to ensure there's no scoring or otherwise damaged bits, and then checked for wear with four measurements. 

The first measurement is to place a straight edge diagonally across the case (not on the screw holes but next to those on each diagonal), and then to measure from that straight edge to the top surface face of the rotor and spindle, with feeler gauges.  This should not exceed 0.004" (Haynes manual says 0.005").   Incidentally, a new pump is within tolerance with 0.0025" end float.  Mine was at 0.004" on one side and 0.005" on the other. This can be corrected by ensuring the cap is perfectly smooth and then taking the top edge of the housing down.  I recently did this on my Norton Commando's oil pump, rubbing the surface down on emery paper laid on a flat surface. I took that down to a little less than 0.001" clearance.   

The second measurement (below) is between the tip of the spindle's vane to the rotor.  I did this four times ..to check each tip.

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^ the maximum acceptable clearance (wear) is 0.010". Each of mine were 8-1/2 to 10 thou. ..so not brilliant and only just within tolerance. I then turned the rotor over in the housing and this reduced by 0.001".    I would be interested to know what this tolerances were when new.?  

The third measurement, I don't see in the book but is mentioned in 'dimensions and tolerances', and that's the clearance of the spindle shaft within the body, which should be 0.001" - 0.003".   It's not easy to measure accurately in the spindle versus the pump body's hole  ..but the spindle can be rocked a little while doing the (above) spindle tip to rotor measurement.  This one rocked by a difference of about 0.0015"  as best I might measure it.  ie., plus or minus 3/4 thou at the top of the spindle vane.  I'll take that as being well within tolerance.  Again according to the specs, a new pump might have 0.003" clearance between the spindle and the bore it sits in.!

And then the fourth measurement is between the rotor and the pump housing (below) ..

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^ this should not exceed 0.010" (Haynes manual says 0.008").  Mine was 0.005" so comfortably within tolerance.  Oddly a new pump is within tolerance if this is 0.0075"

I'm now faced with that contemporary chestnut of,  sticking with the O.E. but part worn pump, or to buy a replacement quality after-market part ?    I must admit.., with the tolerances possible (according to the Triumph workshop manual) within a new pump - I can't see much benefit in buying a replacement ..unless I could go to the store and measure it for size (before purchase) - and then I might buy a new spindle and rotor.  But I don't suppose that would be wholly agreeable.?

So be it.  I'm quite sure after I reduce the end float of this pump to 0.001" or less,  and then only ever used SAE40 or 50 weight engine oil and a good oil filter - this pump would give good pressure for many a year.   Also it's not difficult to remove and refurbish it ..any other time the sump is off.  

Pete.

p.s.  Is it just me, or does the following from one of our best known international suppliers, not instill confidence. ?

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Hi Pete,

if the tolerances, after many years of running is still within tolerance, I would re-use this pump. I’m not familiar with the 4-cyl pump, but my new repro on the 6-cyl. Has several deviations from the original. Wish my original was servicable.

Waldi

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I tend to agree with Iain, I did buy a new one a couple of years back & returned it as I didn't like the quality of the machining.......

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Thanks guys for your feedback.  

I'll make enquiries of various suppliers to see if they can offer me a higher quality spindle and rotor  ..it is after all literally the heart of the car.

For the old Sunbeam motorcycles I ride I prefer to use Morris Oils of a straight SAE40w. I have tried 20/50w but they are then discernibly noisier, and I relate rattles to not being good.  As I now do not ride when temperatures drop to very low single figures  I can't see the advantage of using a winter weight engine oil, in our now milder temperate climate. My inclination is to use that same oil in this engine.

But, might I ask what are the forum's thoughts on engine oil, for the 4-cylinder engine, and for normal road use . ? 

Pete.

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But, might I ask what are the forum's thoughts on engine oil, for the 4-cylinder engine, and for normal road use . ? 

 

Extra bucket of popcorn bought, waiting....go.

 

Mick Richards

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If the Oil pump outer rotor has a chamfer on only one end its outer edge - be sure that this into the pump housing.  Binding rotor is not uncommon on repro rotors that have one chamfer.

The pinned inner rotor to shaft on your item is a GOOD item.  Repro rotors may be splined in only and not locked with a pin.

Mick - Are you saying that there is not a standard oil for our engines?

Cheers

Peter W

 

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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45 minutes ago, Bfg said:

But, might I ask what are the forum's thoughts on engine oil, for the 4-cylinder engine, and for normal road use . ? 

Best do a forum search Pete - and report back in about a year when you've managed to read it all ! :D

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19 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

If the Oil pump outer rotor has a chamfer on only one end its outer edge - be sure that this into the pump housing.  Binding rotor is not uncommon on repro rotors that have one chamfer only and assy wrong way round.

The pinned inner rotor to shaft on your item is a GOOD item.  Repro rotors may be splined in only and not locked with a pin.

Cheers

Peter W

Thank you Peter, that's very useful information ..and perfectly logical consequence of the production process. The photo I posted before (and copied below) is with the rotor inverted so it's a 0.001" tighter fit between it and the spindle.  It therefore shows that chamfer facing up ..so the wrong way around.  It's probably only 1/32" (0.8mm) and so quite easily missed.    

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Now that I know of it,  it'll not be an issue because I'll just file a chamfer on the other end of the rotor.  That's easily done and has no downside.  So again - Thank you. 

Pete

 

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On 12/18/2019 at 9:27 PM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

 

Point 2.  What cleaning fluid do you use in your wash tank?  It looks to be quite effective.

 

well BFG this is an interesting set of posts and all very interesting, keep it up.

I along with others are awaiting your reply re cleaning fluid as i have tried several useless products .

ROY

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19 minutes ago, roy53 said:

well BFG this is an interesting set of posts and all very interesting, keep it up.

I along with others are awaiting your reply re cleaning fluid as i have tried several useless products .

ROY

Yeah

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30 minutes ago, roy53 said:

well BFG this is an interesting set of posts and all very interesting, keep it up.

I along with others are awaiting your reply re cleaning fluid as i have tried several useless products .

ROY

Sorry Roy,  I had to go to the shed to have a look ..but then got bogged down in filthy black sludge and feeler gauges

I'm using Carplan engine cleaner and degreaser ..plus a fair amount of elbow grease, washing up brush and paint brush, wire brushes of different type, scouring pad, scraper for gaskets, etc.   

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Mine in the part's washer is pretty filthy, but it's still ok for a first-wash of parts as I filter it through a sheet of 1/2" thick felt to take out the big lumps.!  By coincidence, because I'm running low and I'll need to wash everything through again, after machining but before reassembly - I was out to buy a new barrel yesterday.  It was £77.57 (inc VAT) for 25ltrs from Motor Parts Direct.  I made the mistake of going out in pre-christmas traffic, but I believe that company does offer free delivery on orders over £50 ..via the internet.

Pete.

Edited by Bfg
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.

Postie's arrived :)

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Three piece clutch kit : TR4A-5-250.  GCK6004X.  £99 (inc VAT and post) was the best value I spotted this week., from Midland Sport & Classics (..and on ebay).

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^ assuming I use this TR3 flywheel, it'll give the engineering company something to do - to very accurately re-drill for the diaphragm clutch cover and to balance it. 

Me mum's old bathroom scales are not very accurate, but indicate together they weigh in at about 26.5 lb (12kg).  However with a smaller clutch the rim of this flywheel might be well chamfered, to loose weight off the peripheral.  

Pete.

 

Edited by Bfg
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I managed to drill (& tap) my standard '3 flywheel to take the diaphram clutch. It did require some very careful measuring, & marking out.

My clutch was marketed as a GT6 clutch from the TR shop. I don't suppose it is any different to the 4A,5,6 one ?

Bob.

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^ you did it yourself.  If you don't have a lathe - that's particularly impressive B)

The GT6 clutch kit is a different part number but I don't know whether the diaphragm cover is different,  or the spine in the friction plate,  or perhaps the thrust bearing,  &/or any combination of those.

 

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Pete

go the whole hog and get this flywheel. 

Has the starter ring, will take your new diaphragm clutch and not too heavy. 

Triumph TR4A Lightweight Steel Flywheel Assembly - can also be used on TR2/3/A/4 https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F184011808608

 

 

H

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