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Pete your continuing attention to detail is impressive. I hope you get to a point where you are happy with it.

in a bid to help your mind space. Could it be that the plate was in fact panel bonded as modern cars are rather than seam sealed. If so many of the proper panel bond adhesives are better than welds.

 

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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7 minutes ago, Hamish said:

Pete your continuing attention to detail is impressive. 

 

What Hamish said ! 
 

keep up the good work !

steve

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Hi Pete

Painful when you discover what you thought you were getting and paying for turns out to be the opposite not sure I'd be so understanding Pete and admire your constant perseverance!

Personally I doubt it will be a bond adhesive when M&T were unable to even tighten the bolts or stick on a bit of rubber etc and instead a delightful bodge job thinking "well no one is going to be looking or poking in here too soon". M&T wasn't banking on you been so diligent! I hope that others read your story and potentially avoid another S&M fiasco.

Shame all those reading your efforts aren't closer or personally I'd be up for helping lifting the shell off and back on so you could weld the T shirt and check for any other omissions. 

Best Wishes

Andy

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1 hour ago, Hamish said:

Pete your continuing attention to detail is impressive. I hope you get to a point where you are happy with it.

in a bid to help your mind space. Could it be that the plate was in fact panel bonded as modern cars are rather than seam sealed. If so many of the proper panel bond adhesives are better than welds.

Thanks Hamish,  My attention to detail is it seems a handicap which can often be difficult to live with.  

Had the panel been bonded, as on modern cars, would have helped my mindset - had it been a body part rather than on a weak spot of the IRS chassis ..but still to use seam sealer ! ?   :lol:

Interestingly, or not,  I note that the TR5 / 6 appears to have an additional pair of body mount through that T-shirt plate, indicated by the rubber pads on the Moss parts drawing < here > as 113 or 114.  The TR4A doesn't have this second pair.

 

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1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Interestingly, or not,  I note that the TR5 / 6 appears to have an additional pair of body mount through that T-shirt plate, indicated by the rubber pads on the Moss parts drawing < here > as 113 or 114.  The TR4A doesn't have this second pair.

 

No they dont thats for seat belt mounts as opposed to the 4a having them in the prop tunnel.

Stuart.

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36 minutes ago, stuart said:

No they dont thats for seat belt mounts as opposed to the 4a having them in the prop tunnel.

Stuart.

Is that the same for the TR4 also Stuart ?

Mick Richards

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29 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Is that the same for the TR4 also Stuart ?

Mick Richards

 

29 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Is that the same for the TR4 also Stuart ?

Mick Richards

Yes it should be,

Stuart.

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On 1/15/2022 at 10:11 AM, PodOne said:

Hi Pete

Painful when you discover what you thought you were getting and paying for turns out to be the opposite not sure I'd be so understanding Pete and admire your constant perseverance!

Personally I doubt it will be a bond adhesive when M&T were unable to even tighten the bolts or stick on a bit of rubber etc and instead a delightful bodge job thinking "well no one is going to be looking or poking in here too soon". M&T wasn't banking on you been so diligent! I hope that others read your story and potentially avoid another S&M fiasco.

Shame all those reading your efforts aren't closer or personally I'd be up for helping lifting the shell off and back on so you could weld the T shirt and check for any other omissions.

Best Wishes

Andy

Thanks Andy, lending a lifting hand is a kind thought.  

Mark at M&T was doing his upmost to work within my limited budget.  He runs a small business that subcontracts out various tasks, and despite being in the Midlands has struggled to find competent employees for certain positions, in particular a really conscientious spanner man, so he's been sub-contracting a mechanic to help out.  Any such business relies on the integrity of each and every member of the team.  If a man forgets a weld, to do a bolt up, or to fit some strips of rubber, then the Manager hopes to spot it before it's too late. 

I bet even Stuart is constantly, albeit perhaps sub-consciously, watching closely and working long hours to see that things are done to expected standards within his shop.  He may pick up on something or other that might have been slightly better or even a detail that needs to be corrected, but just occasionally he might miss some little thing.  But whether that detail ever comes to light ..because the customer is a pain-in-the-arze - like me, is another matter all together.  ;)

And even if it something is noted, the 'executive decision' has to account for how crucial that is, versus the time, interruption to working schedule, and cost of pulling things apart to correct it.  Small business, tight schedules, customer on a tight budget., what is he to do. ?   Like most customers, I cannot afford the perfect restoration. And like most businesses, Mark cannot afford having to rework tasks.  If a man makes a mistake, then he (Mark) will pay for it to be corrected.  If that man makes too many mistakes.., he'll end up dismissed.  But then the process of Mark having to employ and watch someone else starts again. 

Good men are hard to find, and then they need to be led to work to high standards while at the same time to not take too long over it, and yet again at the same time encouraged not to move on to a better paid job. That's the nature of a small but growing business. Mark is doing a great job, he's very conscientious, has high standards for his work, is courteous and accommodating to the customer  ..but he's just one man overseeing the work of many others. Having spoken to him a few weeks ago, I got the impression that he'll now contract the business and concentrate on what they (he and his better employees) are best at, and that is the body work restoration.

It's important to note, that the plate that didn't get welded was in addition to the standard TR4A spec.  It's something I wanted as an upgrade (detail), but clearly Standard-Triumph didn't think it was necessary. On the TR5 and 6 the tunnel bridge between the main chassis rails was replaced with the top T-shirt plate.  Again clearly Standard-Triumph accepted this as a cost saving over that tunnel-bridge pressing.           

- - -

Lifting the body off completely, isn't so easy when my work space is confined to two or three foot around the car, and the poly-cover frame was never intended to take such weight.  We'd also have to disconnect fuel, clutch and brake hydraulics (from the bulkhead), the water heater pipes, the inlet manifold with carburettors, wiring and earths, the handbrake cables, things like the radiator brackets, and so forth.  Along with removing exterior panels (and nowhere to store them) that's a whole lot of work (and time).  And then as you say.. I can "check for any other omissions".  So while the body is off and the engine accessible, let's also do . . . . .     In short, lifting the body now would be a sure-fire recipe for project over-run and my not having the car roadworthy for another year, not least because I have limited energy and resources, and otherwise do have other projects demanding my attention.  

- - -

How to tackle the largely inaccessible underside of floors ?  ..is I'm sure an issue faced by many an owner of "an older restoration".  Things may be OK as they are but.. in the back of the mind a little voice is saying "yes but really only for local use on dry road conditions ".   This nagging festers until the car is not even used for club nights, because there is a chance of rain, or perhaps running issues or a breakdown in the dark.  Proof of the pudding is in a number count, at this time of year.. of how many of your local group turn out in their cherished classic ?   Ask around for the reason - and all sorts of explanation will be presented, as few owners would care to openly admit, even to their friends, the true condition of their car.  After all that might reflect poorly on the owner ..and of course because one day it will be offered for sale.  :huh: oow - you're on dangerous ground there Peter !

I guess the issue for many of us starts with the nice coating of semi-gloss black paint that comes on repro panels.  In the case of my own car, these were fitted by a previous to the last owner. The floors and sill are welded on, seam sealer is used ..seemingly as much to conceal the workmanship as to protect the joint from moisture, and that black paint was over coated.  But as that panel was budget priced and its coating was only ever intended for in-transit and storage, the paint had been applied to ill-prepared shiny pressed steel. Thereafter it had been 'handled' in transit and then again in the garage environment and otherwise made to fit.  As a consequence, that paint tends to chip and lift along the edges, and once lifted it can continue to hold moisture or to flake off as leaves.  Some panels are of course better quality than others, but then even galvanising is stripped off around the edges where it is to be welded. ie., along the edges and in the corners ..which are most vulnerable to corrosion. 

And where the metal was welded.. its even more readily prone to rust through.  Unfortunately nowadays - this welding is not confined to localised spots, away from the edges, but it's continuous and stress inducing along the whole length of a sill, and between the floor and the sill, the floor to either post, between the sill and body mount brackets, and of course along the floor to wheel-arch seams.  If you wanted to concentrate vulnerability to rust, you simply couldn't plan it better. !  

Certainly the transit paint on Katie's  floor panels were not stripped off, before being etch primed and then finished with a good quality harsh-environment paint. Inside the car had been primed but their underside surfaces just had a light coating of under-seal. And that was just where it could be sprayed around the chassis and suspension parts. 

With the body fitted to the chassis, the underside of those floors and in particular many of the corners are largely inaccessible, but to road dirt, dust, minerals and moisture ..which gets everywhere.  Fortunately, Katie had almost always only been driven in summer or dry weather, and parked within an integral-garage ..for the 20+ years since restoration. And then I bought her. 

Although since then she's been covered when parked, and I've taken care to keep her well ventilated underneath, that doesn't stop humidity in the air &/or condensation on cold metal.  The evidence is particularly obvious when I look to her interior. The varnish of her burr dashboard has now gone very dull and milky grey. In short, although it might strip back - I suspect it is ruined.

I'm getting to be an old man now, and so its time to compromise ..and that's not easy to get to grips with.  But I have to face it., she ain't-never going to be as good as I'd like, but surely even an old girl TR4 is better for the soul than a brand new Nissan Micra ! ?   So, if I can keep a focus on getting the car ready for April,  and at the same time to slow these panels from rusting through for another five or ten years then I'll have moved in the right direction. 

My repainting her inside floors (twice) was of course intending to seal that steel from both moisture and air.  And likewise my attempts under the car is to effect the same ..where I can get to it.  In all other places I'll just have to resort to coating it with wax-oil.  I don't like the stuff in my hair when I work under a car, but without lifting the body off and rolling it onto its side then I think it's about the best I can do.   Other suggestions on a postcard please.   

Hey, it's time for me to get on and do some more..  Tomorrow I'll have a day off so today would be a good day to get some more paint on, so that has an extra day of cold and damp to dry in !  :ph34r:

Take care, Pete

 

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4 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Certainly the transit paint on Katie's  floor panels were not stripped off, before being etch primed and then finished with a good quality harsh-environment paint.

That was a waste of etch primer then!

Pete

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2 hours ago, stuart said:

No they don't, that's for seat belt mounts as opposed to the 4a having them in the prop tunnel.

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart. Much appreciated.  Do the TR6 seat belts not anchor through the floor panel and into the chassis then ?

As I bought her Katie  had L-shaped brackets for its inner seat belt anchorages. The bolts were too long and so prevented the seat from moving further back, so I turned the bolts around to clear.  During the chassis swap the L-shaped brackets were swapped for screwed in rings (eye-bolts) into the side of the tunnel, which would have worked nicely with the earlier type of clip-on seat belt.  However, mine are a retractable type, and so I now have the seat-belt bolts into the side of the tunnel. 

M&T also kindly supplied big rectangular plates for that inner body-mount, next to the seat.  Might I enquire as to why this is different ? ..as the floor pressing suggests a normal thick-round body washer would suffice, as is used on all the other body mounts. 

Cheers, Pete

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18 minutes ago, stillp said:

That was a waste of etch primer then!

Pete

sorry my confusing grammar ..

18 minutes ago, stillp said:

 ..were not stripped off, before being etch primed and then finished with a good quality harsh-environment paint.

ie., they were not " etch primed and then finished with a good quality harsh-environment paint" either

:ph34r:

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42 minutes ago, Bfg said:

...Other suggestions on a postcard please...

Hello Pete,

I think you worry too much.
If you worry too much you will have a heart attack and the car will never get finished.

Just throw it all together and drive it.

If the floors rot out in 5 years time just slap a bit of fiberglass on them and carry on driving.
It will still get you from A to B

If you spend too much time perfecting everything you will never leave A, and miss out on all the pleasures that you might find in B

Well…
That’s my opinion, but I’m sure that many will disagree.

Charlie.

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49 minutes ago, Bfg said:

Thanks Stuart. Much appreciated.  Do the TR6 seat belts not anchor through the floor panel and into the chassis then ?

As I bought her Katie  had L-shaped brackets for its inner seat belt anchorages. The bolts were too long and so prevented the seat from moving further back, so I turned the bolts around to clear.  During the chassis swap the L-shaped brackets were swapped for screwed in rings (eye-bolts) into the side of the tunnel, which would have worked nicely with the earlier type of clip-on seat belt.  However, mine are a retractable type, and so I now have the seat-belt bolts into the side of the tunnel. 

M&T also kindly supplied big rectangular plates for that inner body-mount, next to the seat.  Might I enquire as to why this is different ? ..as the floor pressing suggests a normal thick-round body washer would suffice, as is used on all the other body mounts. 

Cheers, Pete

Sorry you obviously misunderstood my reply, TR5/6 seat seat belt stalks bolt down through the floor as the chassis has two extra captives welded in by the tunnel and behind where the large floor plate you mentioned is situated. TR4a doesnt have the belt captivesin the chassis instead they have the mounts for the belts in the sides of the prop tunnel, this is a carry over from the TR4 where it doesnt have a chassis member at that point in the floor to take a mount. The 4a does still have that large plate on the floor mount as a strengthener despite it looking out of place to the floor as the floors are also a carry over from the TR4 where there was a countersunk screw used (again a carry over from the TR2/3/3a floors) so that the seat pan missed it when sliding back as the pans were lower. Sorry thats a bit of an anorak answer but hope it explains what you have there and how it should go together.

Stuart.

 

 

Floor plate - Copy.jpg

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1 hour ago, stuart said:

Sorry you obviously misunderstood my reply, TR5/6 seat seat belt stalks bolt down through the floor as the chassis has two extra captives welded in by the tunnel and behind where the large floor plate you mentioned is situated. TR4a doesn't have the belt captives in the chassis instead they have the mounts for the belts in the sides of the prop tunnel, this is a carry over from the TR4 where it doesn't have a chassis member at that point in the floor to take a mount.

No that's fine Stuart, I understood - Thank you that's what I thought..  The TR6 has the body mounting Moss chassis illustration # 109 to 112, and then the seat belt fastens through to the chassis to the pair of holes with captive nuts immediately behind those.   The floors in Katie  have the holes for the TR6 seat belt stems to be fastened through.

Cheers, Pete    

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Aargh.. Now I'm really seeing RED ! 

. . .

. .

.

P1410122s.JPG.fb9525960d13b50031f7e8dee47def0b.JPG

P1410127s.JPG.06961ad706a343fe1a208661cb4bc3f7.JPG   P1410128s.JPG.37f606a79d1168bc96eee1482a3bcb4e.JPG

:D

Have a good evening,

Pete

 

p.s. I tried to give it a stipple finish but it didn't work very well.

 

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47 minutes ago, Bfg said:

p.s. I tried to give it a stipple finish but it didn't work very well.

 

Small foam roller or pad would give you a stipple finish. 

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19 hours ago, Bfg said:

The floors in Katie  have the holes for the TR6 seat belt stems to be fastened through.

Cheers, Pete    

Thats because the floor are all to TR5 on spec. hence the extra hole, normally filled by a bung on a 4a.

Stuart.

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^ Thanks Stuart. Guessed They might have been TR6 floors, didn't think about the TR5 ..most likely because i think of that as being the rarest.

 

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I can't believe the psychological difference this flash topcoat of paint, underside the car, has on me.  My attitude is changing from the car being an "acceptably tidy car from 10 -15ft away"  to a car that is being 'nicely restored and is well on the way to being a good example'  ..whereas in truth I'm just tarting her up in places ..where no gentleman ought to look.    Not only that but I'm actually enjoying doing this painting, despite it entailing my crawling around on the floor like a fat pink worm on cold concrete slabs !

hey ho., I hope to enjoy it ..for however long this refreshing attitude lasts . . .

P1410141s.JPG.797892fe16b11dbca092ff100f0ca08b.JPG    P1410142s.JPG.1b6cb8c24d107464cf35f2a41a8b797d.JPG

^ this afternoon I continued painting the underside of floors and the body tub, wherever I could reach, but particularly where (when lowered again) it will be near-resting on the chassis. These two piccies show the underside of the spare wheel well and the body's step over the rear axle.

P1410148s.JPG.3fd21a76f01f7ef5b7b7f9c47936f82f.JPG       ...  P1410146s.JPG.06b53c8587ddeb47947b3b118b028461.JPG

^ the outside edge of the floor and the inner sill plate, with it's body mounts.  ^^ the underside of the driver's foot well.

Tbh It's looking in much better condition than I realised.   I'm 65 years old and I'm sure my thinking that is a first  ..with any car I've owned !

Bidding you a very pleasant Sunday evening,

Pete.  

 

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Good evening Pete, still enjoying your posts and photos on Katie, your doing a great job and showing us al that you don’t need a garage to do all the work on a classic car. You’ll soon be done sliding underneath the car and then you can drop it down onto its wheels and saying job well done. I’d put the drivers seat in and go for a drive. Then have a big drink and get the inside fitted out and then get out and enjoy.

Mike redrose group 

 

 

983AFB23-E134-492B-9E68-AE674F98C080.jpeg

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Thanks Mike, Thanks Steve,  I am well pleased with this Johnston's red paint.  And with it being spirit rather than water based I hope it'll stick well and then do its job ..which of course is to help shed dust and moisture.    

This afternoon was pretty darn chilly out but lots of break-dancing type spinning around under the back of the car kept that well at bay.  Unfortunately though I had more welding to do, which I'd spotted before - but now was the opportunity. . .

P1410151s.JPG.b3d61baeb528cdb95265c15116597032.JPG      P1410157s.JPG.7b358ff77cc08e767a633fdecff3a347.JPG

^ again the MOT man with the white stick missed this loose body mount, even though it was very much clearer to see from the underside ..because it has a flipping great rust hole through it.!  :ph34r: 

I'd spotted this bracket's bottom flange, which under-laps and should be spot welded to the underside of the spare-wheel-well, was adrift when I first investigated why the body was sitting low on the driver's side.   Only in scraping it clearer of underseal & seam sealer today did I realise that one of its side flanges was also loose, and there were perforations (albeit only dime-sized) through the panel into the wheel-well.

In the circumstance  ..of the body only being 2" above the chassis ..and so very limit access between the mount and the chassis rail, I decided to cut (or rather tear) the underlapping flange off ..back to the rust hole, and to replace that with new. 

P1410162s.JPG.9c751794e06869786f10dd629cf1be6f.JPG

^ Inside the spare wheel.  The upward ones follow the run of the original spot welds.   I drilled through holes to be plugged with weld, from both sides, and than used two self-tapping screws to hold the mounting bracket tight to the side of the well.  Of course, there was a whole lot of cleaning out of seam sealer, rust and crud too. The through holes drilled in the floor are likewise to plug weld the bracket's new bottom flange on. The set screw with washer simply held it in place for welding.

P1410165s.JPG.b2285bc96344cd1625920fda1f3b2ea9.JPG    P1410181s.JPG.42786f98401da57005b0a3347875b803.JPG

^ Work-in-progress.  Aside from the plug welds I added a few more tacks around the outsides of each flange.

All in all, that may have seemed a five-minute job, but from first to last of these piccies took me 3-hours.! 

P1410188s.JPG.1882433a50cf4523e4d1f6390597beb3.JPG     P1410187s.JPG.ba5d02bc45aaf13a851c91b8aaed5a36.JPG

^ I used copious amounts of zinc spray-paint into the edges, let that dry and slapped-on the red.  It wasn't pretty before so I expected little else when I was done.  But at least it's now secure again.  The inside plug welds linished off nicely. The remaining perforation is plated over from the wheel-arch side, so now that's well coated with zinc and paint, I'll simply seal over it on the inside as I redo the bottom inside corner.

- - -

While at this end of the car with the welder . . .

P1410166s.JPG.8fb7463cc9b64da461f6dfb932201d12.JPG     P1410170s.JPG.355f29570fad177830c9ca5143526c3b.JPG

^ I did this same task with my, also red, '66 S-type Jag.  It is of course the hole in the middle of the spare wheel well, through which the tie-down hook attaches to the chassis. As such I guess it ought to be considered a body mount too.  In any case I don't want a split-edged hole, so I welded a disc to its underside.  Just hope I've got this hole in about the right position.! 

P1410172s.JPG.3ea842828865a31dfec031a52abb8611.JPG  P1410184s.JPG.56d623c131f9735b9b7e50bcf3bcc6ab.JPG

^ I then added another very large washer to the inside. Thereafter lots more zinc and a splash of colour. 

. . . It took me all afternoon to do just those two jobs ..I could never make a living doing this professionally. 

Bidding you a good evening with toasty warm toes .. quite unlike mine at this moment !

Pete.

 

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^ Thanks Gareth.

 

After a couple of days off, this afternoon I did a little pottering around rather than real work.  Thought I'd deal with the T-shirt plate.

On 1/14/2022 at 11:23 PM, Bfg said:

..to locally clean up and repaint the underside of the floor,  just above those pivot brackets. . .

P1410096s.JPG.e660097e5ab41ce85d47333215d0135b.JPG      P1410098s.JPG.908c9a6b81877cc5cd6391f23f1fc8eb.JPG

^ The first inch of Lift off.   I had already started to clean flaky paint and surface rust off that underside slope ..which is why it looks tan coloured, but then I noticed the top plate (a TR6 T-shirt top plate) on the chassis, had a slight gap under it, perhaps 1/8" (3mm) in some places.  That was very odd, until I prised it up (2nd photo, with long screwdriver coming in from the RHS) and discovered that it hadn't been welded.!  

. . .

    . .  I'll now deal with it as best I can.  As I cannot get in there with a welder with the body on, and although a body mount does go through this T-shirt panel (on either side of the driveshaft tunnel) I'm now faced with drilling and adding more bolts to secure it. 

Whether or not anyone else thinks having the top (TR6) T-shirt plate on a TR4A chassis is worth the bother is not really the issue - It is something I wanted as part of my IRS-chassis mods., so this afternoon I set to bolting it in place. . .

P1410191s.JPG.43705ed0686760b0728720ff2d72bd95.JPG

^ first up I decided to drill and tap into the chassis, where the TR5 & 6 have their seat belt mounting hole.  The T-shirt plate was drilled to just clear a 5/16" UNF bolt, and then the chassis was drilled and tapped for that bolt. Although there's only a couple of threads into that thickness of chassis - any movement here, between the T-shirt plate and the chassis, would be in shear ..and so that bolt needs to be a good fit but not that tight.  With that on either side, plus the standard TR4A body mount alongside the rear tunnel gives four fastenings for the plate, and so I added a couple more ..in the back inside corner of the floors  . . .

  P1410196s.JPG.4c4a1abc2aaa21b9bcbfeee51d3acd26.JPG

 ^ Drilling into the rear corner, though to the chassis, not only allows the T-shirt plate to be clamped under it, but it is also where there is a corner gusset reinforcement (to the rail onto which the trailing-arm-brackets are mounted).  In short this means - there's twice the thickness of steel to tap those bolt threads into. 

Furthermore, and rather importantly ..to my way of thinking . . .

P1410202asi.jpg.7eb04d4f0962bb7057616c7ff22724b3.jpg

^ The new inside-bottom-corner mounts tie in nicely with the TR6 style chassis to body mounts, I specifically had added on the step next to the inner arches. On the chassis these body mounts are  immediately adjacent to the suspension's spring hangers. The new inside-bottom-corner mounts also offer load-path-continuity along the rear chassis rail to the sill's rear body mounts.  All together they add cross-bracing (signified by blue lines) of the body-tub combined with chassis, that was absent from the original.  

Possibly this helps clarify the significance of the T-shirt plate and why I required for it to be secure.

OK.,  I'll close the door on the way out. . .

Pete 

 

 

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