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3 hours ago, boxofbits said:

there are two longer studs if you recall to pull the Overdrive onto the box/ adapter

 

Using the studs to pull the O/D onto the gearbox is a good way to distort or break the adaptor plate. Ask me how I know... :(

Pete

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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26 minutes ago, stillp said:

Using the studs to pull the O/D onto the gearbox is a good way to distort or break the adaptor plate. Ask me how I know... :(

Pete

Yep shxx happens now and again! It can be a tricky job Pete, especially if the pump cam and follower don’t quite fall into place correctly, and difficult to see that well as the more you tighten the less you can see. 

Kevin 

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Hi Pete

I'm amazed you're having to deal with theses issues given "Klassic Transmissions" have recently had a go twice? I wonder what they have to say for the quality of the rebuild. I'd be tempted to it back to them to sort, but would they perhaps make matters worse as it would seem they lacked the "Klassic" knowledge in the first place. 

Best of luck I'm sure it will turn out well in the end :D

Andy

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Thanks Bob and Kevin,  I may tackle those tomorrow.  I've been advised not to to loosen nor remove the overdrive, so I'll see if those studs might be undone and dealt with just one at a time. 

This afternoon my focus was on the threat-repair of five of the eight holes, for the bolts which secure (and seal) the gearbox's top cover.  Again my apologies to those who have seen these thread repairs / inserts a dozen or more times before. . .

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^ after being stood on end and slightly inverted overnight ..to drain the last of the oil out (of gearbox and overdrive), I cleaned / degreased the case and my stainless work tray this morning, covered over the exposed gears and prepared for drilling. 

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^ I'd bought this kit of UNC thread inserts off an e-bay seller a couple of weeks ago specifically for this task, and having used the same sort (but Whitworth threads) on my Sunbeam motorcycle engines - I had a fair idea how to do it.  As you can seen the kit comes with the correct size of drill, and tap, a good number of thread inserts (coils of the replacement thread) and the tools to insert them. 

The difficult part of the task is drilling and then tapping squarely into the old hole.  A stripped out thread is very nearly the right size already but a sharp drill-bit will tend to cut at an angle if you're not really very careful.  I use a spirit-level to sight against . . . 

P1400254s.JPG.e9dd8eb5be06ec79cce6246401089e5a.JPG    P1400253s.JPG.37dd9463ea843ce1f086ff9e3bb3b7a5.JPG

^ the gearbox was set, with spacers under the bellhousing flange, so that its top face (where the holes are) was sitting vertical. Alongside the gearbox, and set at a convenient height, a spirit-level was leveled.  Then, as can be seen in the second of these photos, the drill can be sighted to be level with it.   Yeah Ok., so while taking the photo I was having difficulty holding the drill perfectly horizontal ..but I'm sure you get the idea.  During the drilling - my head was alternating, like a nodding-dog in a car's back window, from sighting at this angle to looking down on the drill ..to ensure that it wasn't going in at an sideways angle.  The blue masking tape is simply a depth gauge, so that I knew when to stop !

The modus operandi is likewise used when tapping the oversized thread ..into which the insert will be fitted. . .

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^ tapping the oversized hole is more difficult than drilling, and although the first part of that is its chamfered end - I take as much care with this stage as when the tap bites and starts to cut (seemingly very crudely with a coarse thread into cast aluminium).  Great care is needed at this stage., as the tap bites a chunk of aluminium out of one side and then at 90-degrees ..which tries to throw your direction off true.   But if I can do ..then so can you :)

During this tapping, I stop to brush-clean the tap, and to clean out the hole, two or three times. This is because the chunks of metal being cut out need to be cleared out rather than their snagging and binding.  My marker tape might tend to prevent some bits from clearing, but I still prefer to have it there as a depth gauge.  Personally, I don't use cutting paste nor lubricant either while drilling or when tapping, because I want that hole and the freshly cut thread to be bare-metal clean for its insert. 

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^ The thread-insert is a coil of stainless steel, although not of marine grade because it's slightly magnetic. The outside of the coil winds into the freshly cut oversized thread, and its inside is the right size and thread for the bolt.  In this case 5/16" UNC.

The forks on the end of the tool provided engage with a wire across it's inside end,  and is used like a screwdriver to fit the insert into the threaded hole. It very simple to do so.   I liberally apply Loctite 2400 both to the insert and into the threaded hole, before winding it in to about a mm below the surface.  

I then screw a clean bolt in ..to first ensure that the insert has gone in correctly, and also to collect / clean out the excess of Loctite.  I do this two or three times, inbetween times removing and wiping the bolt's thread clean with tissue paper.

The wire inside, used to screw the insert in, has to be broken off and removed. There's a straight rod within the kit to do this with, which when inserted into the hole is tapped on end with a wooden block. . .

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^ It's then very important to retrieve that little piece of wire ..as you wouldn't want it floating around inside with the mechanical gnashing of teeth or otherwise restricting an oil gallery. A small screwdriver, temporarily magnetized can help retrieve those which are broken off in a blind hole.

Job done . . .

..except I had two others to do . . .

P1400275s.JPG.b8ff3102ca0bcc342b7580c4b268bbea.JPG    P1400276s.JPG.92c2b1b973a2b4b65a9fbdfaa4b66f34.JPG etc., etc.

^ here I clamped the spirit level to the side of the case so that it was again at a suitable height for sighting the drill, and tapping, level.   With those done and all the bits carefully swept up and disposed of, and the newly re-threaded holes picked clean - all that remained was to ensure any bits ..that might have got passed or around the barriers were blasted out . . . 

P1400284s.JPG.e8c2e200f73fc528fb85950692e3c9fc.JPG  

^ copious amounts of carb cleaner jetted into and around the gears and all around the inside of the case, which itself was tilted so that any bits would wash out of the open top. 

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^ ,,and then it was left to drip dry.  I had very carefully cleaned the tray out before doing this, and subsequently.. I found one small piece of aluminium from the thread cutting in the tray. whether that came from inside the case or from its outside, I will never know.  Still better be safe, in the knowledge that reasonable precautions had been taken, than miserable.

Tomorrow I'll address a few other issues before trying to refit it back into the car.

Bidding you a good evening,

Pete.

 

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53 minutes ago, PodOne said:

Hi Pete

I'm amazed you're having to deal with theses issues given "Klassic Transmissions" have recently had a go twice? I wonder what they have to say for the quality of the rebuild. I'd be tempted to it back to them to sort, but would they perhaps make matters worse as it would seem they lacked the "Klassic" knowledge in the first place. 

Best of luck I'm sure it will turn out well in the end :D

Andy

Thanks Andy,  I'm very surprised too, as they had and possibly still have an good reputation with Jaguar restorers, not least because they had a stack of NOS of parts which were original quality.  I've asked Mark for their telephone number and that came back to me in an app format that my computer couldn't read.  So I've sent Mark a link to what I've posted ..and proposed he forward this to them and also ask for his and my money back ..for the labour cost and his hassle factor, and mine for the rebuild cost and the hassle factor of having to pull the gearbox yet again   ..But I don't expect anything more will come of it.  

I didn't take it back to them because,  i) I've lost confidence in their doing the job properly, and ii) because it's a 350 mile round trip to take it and then again to collect it.  Not to mention the delay and/or the stress of arguing the odds. 

I hope it'll be OK in the long term.

Pete 

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Hi Pete,

I'm still following and enjoying your thread, and finding it a really useful guide to some of the things I am attempting on my car - I particularly like your clear photos which really help.

A point on 'helicoiling'. I have used a similar (probably the same) kit as you for a couple of threads on my car. I seem to remember from my metal work classes at school a zillion years ago that:

i) when tapping a hole we used three taps, small/medium/large in sequence to take out progressively larger cuts. The last one I seem to remember was called the 'plug'? I was concerned when I used my kits that there was only one, so taking the whole thread cut in one go. However, it seems to work, so no problem.

ii) the technique I was taught is to do half turn forward then a quarter back - this breaks the cut piece of swarf which gets cleared into the gullies of the tap. Is this still the best technique? I can't believe I can remember (or mis-remember?) that after all those years but struggle to remember what I did yesterday!

Keep up the good work.

Alistair. 

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Thanks Alistair.   Must admit., it takes me longer to take the photos, edit them for clarity, to bring them down to size, and to then write up the report ..than it actually does to do the job !   ..so I'm glad they are useful and enjoyable - it makes the effort worthwhile.   The photos are also wonderful for attracting comments and tips from those much more experienced than I.  And those persons who have spotted things &/or have something else useful to add.. are really making this thread so much better. From that we all benefit ..and isn't that what being part of a club means !

I'm not an expert in fitting thread inserts and I didn't even know coiled-thread-inserts existed a zillion years ago. I must have slept through that class ! <_<  I thought in 'the golden years' of engineering any thread-insert would have been a machined-sleeve (tube) ..like these.?   

38900_1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Anyhow, I guess like cutting anything, whether planing a piece of knotted timber or tapping a thread.. very much comes down to the material in question, how deep and how sharply defined a cut is needed, and the operation.  My concern with multiple depths of cut is whether the second or third cut would follow exactly the path of the first (or second) ..especially when doing it free hand.  I would have thought it very easy to cross-thread the first cut, especially in a cast material where the bits tend to break off in chunks and throw the line off.   If the thread is to be very deep, relative to its pitch, then I can understand that would need to done in multiple cuts, and similarly if the material is really hard.  

Again, if the cut thread needs a very carefully defined shape.. I can see that a cutting tap might be followed by a finishing tap, to define the last 5% of the thread's profile, but surely that would used in a more suitable material, perhaps those used in motor racing &/or the aerospace industry. Repeat cutting of a thread in a smooth material like brass or bronze might be very much easier, but in cast aluminium or iron.. I just don't know.   Perhaps someone with greater experience and skills might advise. 

Your second query is sort of closely related, and again backing off would seem to incur a greater risk of going off-track.  While doing these I was very focused on trying to keep the tap square to the mating surface. At the same time I was trying to apply steady pressure and turn the tap at an even pace ..to have the very tip of the tap cutting in a true spiral rather than it tending to be pushed back out again ..which would inadvertently cut some off the face of the preceding thread. 

Keeping the drilling and tapping perpendicular to the mating surface is particularly necessary where the bolts will be long (such as through the tall gearbox top cover ..with its selector rods). There's little room for angular error, unless one is prepared to 'stretch' those holes, through the cover, wider.

I pulled the tap out after it had just cut the opening chamfer, to clean away its swarf ..and then I proceeded the tapping ..at as even and continuous pace as I could, until the first half of the thread had been cut and its tracking defined.  After cleaning that swarf out.. the tap then screwed in without cutting on the defined thread, so then it was simply a matter of repeating the same pressure and pace to finish cutting the deeper-half of the thread.   I cannot say that is the correct procedure.. only that it's what works for me ..in cast aluminium.  

I really don't like fastenings being taken out of a casting. Wherever possible studs, which stay in for life, are better engineering practice. But possibly when I come to put this top cover back on,  I'll see that the selector forks or something need a little play in the cover, to get them aligned, before the lid will go down.    

Hope that's a helpful and yet not too long-winded a reply.

Pete.

 

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Actually Pete, when I mentioned doing it at school I just meant tapping a new thread in a blank hole - not sure what was around then for fixing stripped threads, that would have been far too advanced for 'O' level metalwork.

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10 hours ago, Ali King said:

I seem to remember from my metal work classes at school a zillion years ago that:

i) when tapping a hole we used three taps, small/medium/large in sequence to take out progressively larger cuts. The last one I seem to remember was called the 'plug'? I was concerned when I used my kits that there was only one, so taking the whole thread cut in one go. However, it seems to work, so no problem.

Ali,

What you recall was a three tap set, all the same size, but one 'taper', to start the thread, one 'plug' to extend it as far as necessary, and  the "bottoming" tap, that took the thread right to the bottom of the hole, if it were blind and not right through.

Your kits with only one of each size tap have all 'plugs', with a short taper on the end, that make starting easier than a bottom tap, with no taper. And as you say, it works!  Mostly!

John

 

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Good morning all,  with the gearbox top-cover's threads now all being good, and my friend Rich having a complete set of the correct bolts which I'll collect sometime this week, all I needed was a gasket.  Not many pence perhaps but for the inconvenience of ordering just one item and then also its postage cost.. I made one. 

To many who read this, a home-made gasket is a huge No, No.!   Some may argue that its thickness is critical, and that it's a false economy and so forth. And very often I would agree that those arguments.  Conversely, many an Engineer has made gaskets for engines and mechanics that are either unique or else so rare that such things as gaskets are simply not available.  Many others will think "why not if you can do it successfully " ..particularly as in this situation, it's not an engine nor gearbox out again job, if its oil sealing is less than 100% successful.

The failings I've seen in home made gaskets (..and I have seen quite a few over the years) is that the card used is inappropriate &/or the cutting out and holes are awful.   Regarding the former, there is of course sheet-gasket-paper commercially available.  Alternatively, selection of a suitable piece of card comes down to it not having been compressed too much when it was made or printed ..nor is it creased or soiled from use.  In my estimation, more often than not, cardboard which has a glossy surface (such as a cornflake box, whether printed or not) is less than suitable.  However the brown card envelopes now used by Amazon is really quite excellent for our purpose. 

Again.., I am not saying 'do as I do'  ..all I'm showing here is 'this is how I do things' if you find yourself caught-short of a gasket . . .

 

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^ with the card cut slightly oversize, and three of the sides square to each other (because the holes will be measured from their edge, the first two holes are easy to mark.  The hole centres were first marked as ticks along the edge but then checked with a ruler.  Note ; as this gearbox was made to imperial measure, so then the checking of its hole centres was done to nearest 1/16".   Btw, that first edge overhangs the side of the gearbox case a little, simply because the card is stronger when the holes are not so very close to the edge.  If that is subsequently ugly (such as on a motorcycle engine which is clearly seen) then it is best trimmed after the cover is installed.

Holes are not so difficult when you press them out rather than trying to cut or drill them. Here's how. . .

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^ the hole centres are marked on the one side of the paper, and a suitable penny washer is aligned to those. It is held in that position as the card is turned over and placed faced-down on a work-bench edge, and then a suitable rounded end of a ring spanner is pushed into it.  The steel of the ring spanner pushed firmly and turned stamps a hole neatly through the cardboard.  It's very nearly the same as using a hole punch through the edge of a sheet of paper ..but I do find using a washer easier to centre accurately.  These simple tools, and a used Amazon envelope, are also convenient for the tool kit when touring.

NB. the penny washer has sharper edges on one side than the other from where it's been stamped, the sharp side is used against the card.  The ring spanner has to be small enough, to push into the hole.  And the hole in the penny washer (penny washer used because it's easier to hold when turned over) is a size smaller than the bolt size used.  ..So, in this instance the bolt is 5/16" UNC. The penny washer used was of 6mm (1/4") hole, and the ring-spanner used was of 8mm.   

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^ the cut hole is adequately neat (..the pressed out piece of card still within the washer).

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^ Although firm pressure is needed to punch these holes out.. accurately marking out their position is very much more time consuming.  Again remember to measure in from the edge of straight edges and then check the hole centres correspond to imperial measure, so in this example the centreline of top cover's LHS holes is exactly 5" apart from the centreline of the RHS holes.    

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^ I had carefully removed the old gasket and with that loosely in position over the new, I roughly traced the line of the inside cut. Using a straight edge I refined my tracing before cutting.  Still it saved a fair amount of time, in measuring and draughting the cut line . . . 

P1400301s.JPG.3f1f99a501d6ad70dcb2ec49768c09f0.JPG

^ almost done.  Although I use scissors to cut the outside shape, I find it easier to cut the inside with a Stanley-knife (cutting through onto a piece of scrap plywood) ..working from each corner.  

P1400302s.JPG.a65f25679055c1b418cfa73753653b2d.JPG

^ to finish off, I've sealed the card's surface and edges with paint.  Here I've used aerosol zinc-primer, which with a finger I've rubbed into the surface and in particular into the cut edges of the cardboard.  This was done on both sides, and is akin to fibreglassing, whereby its resin holds the fibres together.  Here I'm using the paint to prevent any loose paper fibres along the inside edges from washing away.  As you can see I've only applied and rubbed-in a thin / sealing coating of paint.

Making this gasket from scratch, including paint and taking all the photos, took 60 minutes ..so it's not instant. But at the same time buying and getting a new one isn't either.  And this is (imo) much better than reusing an already compressed gasket, or else using an excess of goo.

Once the paint is dry, its use is just the same as a commercially available gasket. In this application I'll most likely use a smear of Wellseal between the gasket and gearbox case, and a smear of heavy grease between the gasket and the top cover.

"granddad have you sucked that egg yet ? " :rolleyes:

Pete     

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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I do this fairly often, using A4 sheets of gasket material (Ebay). I use a hole punch for the holes, after marking them out by pressing the gasket into the holes in the casting.

Bob

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My Maun wad punches and hole punch pliers come into their own when gasket making.

https://shop.ehayes.co.nz/maun-wad-punch-kits-m1000-05

See what I did there?  
Took you to the company in NZ that has the ‘Fastest Indian’  ….to divert this thread a lot more.  https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g255120-d1770406-Reviews-E_Hayes_and_Sons_The_World_s_Fastest_Indian-Invercargill_Southland_Region_South_I.html

image.jpeg.be4a3535658bf125ce6187b8135ecadc.jpeg

 

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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I find a scalpel knife is easier to use for cutting things like gaskets, and precision cutting in general. More control than a Stanley knife.

Go for a proper "Swann-Morton" version.

Just watch your fingers !

Charlie

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Other little jobs are being done ...

P1400215s.JPG.67f5df79a72d233b8b14985138cb62c8.JPG    P1400305s.JPG.09d8a18cc958a56b529160c2975a8f3e.JPG

^ as previously spotted, by sharp-eyed Bob if I recall, this stud through the overdrive's flange and its nut were not exactly precision fitted.  The stud was poking through the back, but lacking threads in the nut.   The dilemma then was how to get the stud out ..with damaging it and or separating the joint.?  As you can see there's not enough thread for a single nut let alone for locking two together . . .

P1400304s.JPG.99ec50f0b63920ef2b8069c6320a3c43.JPG

^ the solution I chose was to remove the washer, to expose more thread, and to loosely refit the nut on its stud with medium strength Loctite.  When this cured it undid the stud from the cast flange.  

P1400307s.JPG.c376fdeb29260cbd5e74ceb8c8b313cd.JPG

^ although I would have preferred it an 1/8" longer.. the stud is just about long enough.   I applied loctite to the thread into the cast flange and screwed it in to be flush with it back face. I let that cure before refitting its washer and nut. 

P1400324s.JPG.4e82d1d149a0975efc2b7f72911bf3ac.JPG

^ Job done ..next.

It was disappointing to see that the clutch release mechanism had been altered from as I'd fitted it just a few months ago . . .

P1400314s.JPG.04a7387e4fa746aee10e70b8354bf252.JPG

^ several things were apparent. 1. I had left double bushes in the case where the rod passes through ..because those bushes were rather short.  2. there's a glean of oil around the bellhousing. somewhere is leaking.  3. the grease I had applied was lithium based molybdenum-disulphide ..as used CV joints where high shear loads (ie., sliding) and infrequent maintenance access is usual.  This has been substituted with Copaslip ..a very different product intended for a completely different job.  4. the lock wire through the release lever arm does not go through the dowel pin.  The prior owner of this car did that and the pin fell out and then the main pin sheared off, so I consider it necessary to wire that dowel pin in place.  

P1400315s.JPG.97bc2a85a4c3960a5e95b51242820d47.JPG

^ where I'm pointing to, there's oil  ..as if that gasket face is leaking.  Or else the oil has come passed a seal around the splined shaft and has dribbled back.  It might better account for the sheen of oil all around the inside of the bellhousing.  Either way, it's an unhappy prospect.

P1400318s.JPG.28a42f9ddf45f7ecfa246d9f93bea4b5.JPG    P1400313s.JPG.042d788d2cadd772bdd626833f599d56.JPG

^ Both ends of this shaft and their bushes are dry of lubrication.  ^^And the bush in the RHS is part hanging out, with its end battered. As the bush is short it ought at least be under the shaft.  These were a brand new bushes, that I had carefully drifted into their place. And there was a bolt through the hole under it, which located it.

I'm disheartened by the lack of care & attention. 

I'll see if I can get another pair of new bushes, before I refit the gearbox.

Pete

 

Edited by Bfg
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Good solution to the shallow stud threads. Some great photography of some unfortunate extra issues, but I know you'll methodically work your way through them. 

Gareth

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Pete i have had 2 gearboxes leak from the plate gasket just under your pointer.  I don't use the rebuilder anymore as it's a gearbox out job to rectify it and all for the sake of a squirt of sealant.

Roy

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4 hours ago, roy53 said:

Pete i have had 2 gearboxes leak from the plate gasket just under your pointer.  I don't use the rebuilder anymore as it's a gearbox out job to rectify it and all for the sake of a squirt of sealant.

Roy

oh dear :mellow:  ..might I ask how much came out when it was just that gasket leaking ?  ie. if it's just a single drip after a run then I live with it. Conversely if it's a puddle then I'd better deal with now, rather than having to pull the gearbox out yet again.  cheers. 

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14 hours ago, Bfg said:

oh dear :mellow:  ..might I ask how much came out when it was just that gasket leaking ?  ie. if it's just a single drip after a run then I live with it. Conversely if it's a puddle then I'd better deal with now, rather than having to pull the gearbox out yet again.  cheers. 

Dont leave it as it will develop. Best done now not later.

Stuart.

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photos speak for themselves . . .

P1400398s.JPG.37414a72e4eb4709aab3c5dacdde2dad.JPG  

^ bolts without plain shanks and an apparently reused gasket.  

P1400402s.JPG.00108c1bb6f90890641cfa33a409d4fe.JPG

^ two thread inserts, both proud of the gasket face.

P1400406s.JPG.027ba26903cd6aae3324488f14c84f13.JPG

^ untapped hole for the thread insert

  P1400409s.JPG.9372e45c773f51063a7a18847d59e1d7.JPG

From cleaning out that hole.. it feels like silicon but with stripped-out-thread-bits to give it a nice crunchy texture.

 

P1400407s.JPG.7a72481fea31d8c3a30137a14859906e.JPG    P1400408s.JPG.804b7dcd6f2de2f8425bd623d1cf25c6.JPG

^ the top hole's thread insert, similarly in a plain (untapped) hole. 

P1400410s.JPG.20787f628eff7625dbb4cd1529c076fa.JPG

^ it's going to rather difficult to prevent swarf from my tapping that hole, inbetween the two gears, from dropping into the gearbox case. 

And this is just 200 miles since the gearbox was professional rebuilt by Klassic Transmissions.   I don't know if these faults were there before, but still I feel they ought to have been rectified in a professional manner.  And although there might have been an occasional drip of oil under the car - it was, when bought, remarkable oil-leak free. 

Pete

 

Edited by Bfg
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Judging by the way that insert has come out your going to possibly struggle to tap those holes anyway. Thats shocking, did they use copper washers on the bolts?

Stuart.

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