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Pete you have saved yourself all the labour costs and now know exactly what has been done.

And of corse the pleasure of doing it .  :o:blink::angry:

Roy

 

 

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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I would be happy with that days work Pete 8 hours gearbox in and out including new clutch fitting and all the cross shaft repairs. 
 

I suppose classic car specialty charge £50 to £65 is per hour plus vat another 20%.

I triumph specialist May cut the time down by a few hours with experience. 
 

So £600 ?

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3 minutes ago, roy53 said:

Pete you have saved yourself all the labour costs and now know exactly what has been done.

And of course the pleasure of doing it .  :o:blink::angry:

Roy

 

3 minutes ago, Hamish said:

I would be happy with that days work Pete 8 hours gearbox in and out including new clutch fitting and all the cross shaft repairs.

I suppose classic car specialty charge £50 to £65 is per hour plus vat another 20%.

I triumph specialist May cut the time down by a few hours with experience.

So £600 ?

Thank you both,

I'll also need to balance their cost against the quality of work, the care taken to protect the car, and of course the risks. 

Now that I have no garage or garden to do things at my own pace, and without labour/overhead costs .. I need to reevaluate what I can and cannot do.  I like to see things are done properly, and I'm also used to my own and factory workshop practices ..which safeguard both the workers and the car.  But after doing this rather simple job, I'm feeling the risk of using a back-shed-type workshop is not worth it.  

Tommy the spanner-man used to work for for a local classic car restoration shop.  He would have struggled to take the gearbox out on his own, and when asked he suggested doing it on his own would probably have taken two and a half days.  The charge rate is a very reasonable £25 per hr. so those 8-1/2 hours + an extra hour as a bonus cost £240 plus the parts and my own time in the workshop and in getting the parts in. Had he struggle to do it on his own and it took two and a half days then the cost would have been £500.  Very likely he would have hurt himself in the process.   As it stands, the car has greasy finger prints (including my own) on it and I still have to re-fit the interior. That took me 50 minutes to remove but may well take an hour and half to refit.  

On reflection, the risk of my working with this workshop is too great.  If my thumb had been broken rather than 'just' its nail bruised - then my right hand would have been out of useful service for months rather than days. Likewise if I had pulled my back or dropped the gearbox on my toe.   Had the carburettors caught alight then where would I have stood with claiming off their insurance (if they have any ?) or my own car insurance.  And of course replacing the phone (which was only where it was because I had been using its LED torch ..because it was too dark to see into the footwells) is going to cost me.  And then, using a back street outfit I really don't know what guarantee there is on their work and/or public liability should something go drastically wrong.

No, at my mid-60's turn in life - the pleasure I seek is to have a nice car which is well-sorted and safe, and then to use it ..have fun driving it, but with due respect for the age of its parts and design specification. 

Pete.

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19 minutes ago, Lebro said:

Is the clutch any lighter now ?

BTW I did not know brake fluid was flammable !.

Bob.

The clutch is so very much lighter now, even though I've fitted a new return spring alongside the slave-cylinder (which was missing before).  My Chrysler Voyager's clutch is heavier and has probably twice as much travel at the pedal.  Disappointingly the new clutch thrust-bearing can still be heard, although it has been suggested that this may be the lay-shaft bearing within the gearbox.  Of course it's difficult to tell when the gearbox cover is loose, has holes through it, and there's no felt or carpets over it.

I'd guess brake fluid is an oil, and like all oils it has combustion and an autoignition temperature.  However, the flame was not fierce though as petrol would have been, more like paraffin. 

Pete.

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I did that job on my own a couple of years ago Pete and your two-and-a-half days of working time  is about right for that. It took longer to strip and replace the interior than to remove and refit the 'box itself.  I found the trick is to try to do things cleverly rather than by brute force (which I can't manage these days anyway) so lifting aids and levers used wherever possible.  Slows the job down but better than doing serious damage to the person.

 Minor damage is unavoidable I find, as each job seems to require some small blood-sacrifice. 

(It's always a personal concern when doing large jobs of any kind- not just the car- that should I have a major calamity I have no-one to summon for aid and no neighbours are likely to be within earshot; so I try to remember to have a phone within reach.) 

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Since you have a spring on the slave cylinder, & presumably you have adjusted the rod to give a small clearance, then with foot off the clutch the release bearing will not be in contact with the clutch, so will be stationary. If the noise you can hear goes away when you depress the clutch, then it is more than likely the counter gear bearings - quite normal !

Bob

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Friday :

The clutch is now so light that I first wanted to check that it was properly bled (after being used for two short journeys) and to fit return spring alongside the slave cylinder.  The was just a little air in the pipe (it's a nuisance having a bigger bore pipe when bleeding). Now the feel of clutch wouldn't feel out of place in a small modern car. 

- - -

I also wanted to check out the differences in gearbox covers and to see if we might get a steel TR3 one to fit in place of the TR4's fibreglass cover.  It wasn't intended to be, but this also gave me the opportunity to see how effectively and neatly Tommy worked with tin bashing, as I have much bigger changes in mind for the car . . .

P1380236s.jpg.9fadf6a52b197981dd1fdd7c6ba6ae5f.jpg

P1380235s.jpg.fa81262c9f4304932d784e5e7634aa87.jpg

P1380234s.jpg.b4573d25af659b3e21bd2eb6e2239fa7.jpg

^ sorry., I should have taken a little more time to align the two up. Their lengths are in fact very similar indeed, as are their footprint.

As you can see the TR3 cover (right) has an upturned flange at the front ..to bolt through the bulkhead, whereas the TR4 - TR6's  g/box cover sits on a flange coming back from the bulkhead.  The TR3 cover is noticeably fuller / rounder over the gearbox. This must have been altered because the later cars have a dashboard-support H-frame, and so their covers are slimmed down just forward of the gear-change hole, for the H-frame to straddle over it. 

The first thing I wanted was to split the TR3 cover into two parts. . .

P1380239s.jpg.3fe57fb825862850158ca75c73d08e42.jpg

^ I proposed a line about 3" further forward of the gear-change hole for the split, as this would allow easy access and if necessary replacement of the overdrive's solenoid without needing to disturb the forward part of the cover.  The split is also just forward of where the H-frame sits and so because I wanted to retain that (at least for the time being) I hoped reworking their (split) edges would be easier. 

The height from the front edge of gear-change hole to the floor was much the same between the two covers (1/4" difference), but the height over the rear part of the prop-shaft tunnel was an inch too high on the TR3 cover. That was easily sorted by simply re-bending its bottom flange ; 1" difference at the back tapering to no change in height at the front corner.

Meanwhile inside the car. . 

P1380240s.jpg.3bc3060ccebae361f38616333f6cc2a7.jpg

There's certainly plenty of space under there.  The solenoid switches and their wiring connections stick up but not that much. . .

P1380225as.jpg.2ecdf339b728ab2a4ba56ef85460b5a1.jpg

P1380241s.jpg.40eae7e5ab4a1766f99f531bbe43c11d.jpg

^  although the footprint to the floor is very much the same (and many of the holes line up), the width around the top is ..let's say 'generous'.  Personally I would prefer more spacious foot wells.

P1380249s.jpg.71bcfc787081bcb3abefada55ecbba54.jpg

^ even the steel cover's fit against the bulkhead was very good.

In short ;  it all looked very promising and to my eyes easy enough to modify to fit very well.

However... Tommy seemed to be struggling with simply getting on with the job. It was his job and so I tried to only suggest client instructions to what was wanted.  In truth I was enthusiastic by the fit and I just wanted to get on and do it. His rolling & smoking cigarettes while he was thinking was getting to me ..as indeed was rap "music" out of the transistor, having tea and then toasted sandwiches, and his not being able to find tools.  There are no solid work-benches, and two lightweight stands are covered with tools and drill bits ..from however long ago.  So anything is done by scampering around on the floor or otherwise hammered over a steel (horse) trestle at the other end of the workshop

According to the photos, we started looking at these g/box covers at 11:40am. And the photo taken ..where the cover was simply cut into two, was taken at 13:12pm ..an hour and a half later !  ..by 16:00 we had packed up.

The cuts (as darts) he'd made to bring the small rear part of the cover lower & narrower (to fit under the H-frame) was let's say "not as I would have done it".  Very ugly indeed, horribly hammered, and with just a few holding-tacks of weld to show for 4-1/4 hours work. The front / larger part of the cover hadn't yet been touched.

If I were to let it continue, then it would be a very expensive job (for what I was getting).  Perhaps it's a sad reflection on me, but I am not even able to watch someone work like this.  After doing things my own way, and just getting on with the job on my own for the past 40 years - I was getting more and more wound up.  I didn't say anything but.. I'll not continue with him doing this. 

So Friday, was such a disappointment ..when the TR3 cover itself offered such promise - with its fit and for being an easy mod. to simply slim down.   I now have to consider how best I might proceed on my own ..with no power and little space in my storage container. In the meantime I have overheating and water loss issues to worry about.

Pete

 

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5 hours ago, Bfg said:

Thanks Hamish,

Any idea how long the job has taken others, or does anyone have experience of what it costs to just take to car into a old school type garage ?   

I'm trying to ascertain whether my trying to do these jobs on a tight budget is actually saving me money or whether a Triumph specialist would be as cost effective because they are already tuned into these cars cars and any particular task. ?

Pete.

Hi Pete,

around 3hrs from opening the car door to having the box on the bench, half to an hour to swop bits and crossdrill cross shaft, and 2Hrs plus to replace all, BUT, and here is the credit to you, not all on the same day.

I make it a rule now, half the job, one day, replacement the next, otherwise the recovery time is a number of days!

You did well.

John.

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3 hours ago, Bfg said:

Friday :

The clutch is now so light that I first wanted to check that it was properly bled (after being used for two short journeys) and to fit return spring alongside the slave cylinder.  The was just a little air in the pipe (it's a nuisance having a bigger bore pipe when bleeding). Now the feel of clutch wouldn't feel out of place in a small modern car. 

- - -

I also wanted to check out the differences in gearbox covers and to see if we might get a steel TR3 one to fit in place of the TR4's fibreglass cover.  It wasn't intended to be, but this also gave me the opportunity to see how effectively and neatly Tommy worked with tin bashing, as I have much bigger changes in mind for the car . . .

P1380236s.jpg.9fadf6a52b197981dd1fdd7c6ba6ae5f.jpg

P1380235s.jpg.fa81262c9f4304932d784e5e7634aa87.jpg

P1380234s.jpg.b4573d25af659b3e21bd2eb6e2239fa7.jpg

^ sorry., I should have taken a little more time to align the two up. Their lengths are in fact very similar indeed, as are their footprint.

As you can see the TR3 cover (right) has an upturned flange at the front ..to bolt through the bulkhead, whereas the TR4 - TR6's  g/box cover sits on a flange coming back from the bulkhead.  The TR3 cover is noticeably fuller / rounder over the gearbox. This must have been altered because the later cars have a dashboard-support H-frame, and so their covers are slimmed down just forward of the gear-change hole, for the H-frame to straddle over it. 

The first thing I wanted was to split the TR3 cover into two parts. . .

P1380239s.jpg.3fe57fb825862850158ca75c73d08e42.jpg

^ I proposed a line about 3" further forward of the gear-change hole for the split, as this would allow easy access and if necessary replacement of the overdrive's solenoid without needing to disturb the forward part of the cover.  The split is also just forward of where the H-frame sits and so because I wanted to retain that (at least for the time being) I hoped reworking their (split) edges would be easier. 

The height from the front edge of gear-change hole to the floor was much the same between the two covers (1/4" difference), but the height over the rear part of the prop-shaft tunnel was an inch too high on the TR3 cover. That was easily sorted by simply re-bending its bottom flange ; 1" difference at the back tapering to no change in height at the front corner.

Meanwhile inside the car. . 

P1380240s.jpg.3bc3060ccebae361f38616333f6cc2a7.jpg

There's certainly plenty of space under there.  The solenoid switches and their wiring connections stick up but not that much. . .

P1380225as.jpg.2ecdf339b728ab2a4ba56ef85460b5a1.jpg

P1380241s.jpg.40eae7e5ab4a1766f99f531bbe43c11d.jpg

^  although the footprint to the floor is very much the same (and many of the holes line up), the width around the top is ..let's say 'generous'.  Personally I would prefer more spacious foot wells.

P1380249s.jpg.71bcfc787081bcb3abefada55ecbba54.jpg

^ even the steel cover's fit against the bulkhead was very good.

In short ;  it all looked very promising and to my eyes easy enough to modify to fit very well.

However... Tommy seemed to be struggling with simply getting on with the job. It was his job and so I tried to only suggest client instructions to what was wanted.  In truth I was enthusiastic by the fit and I just wanted to get on and do it. His rolling & smoking cigarettes while he was thinking was getting to me ..as indeed was rap "music" out of the transistor, having tea and then toasted sandwiches, and his not being able to find tools.  There are no solid work-benches, and two lightweight stands are covered with tools and drill bits ..from however long ago.  So anything is done by scampering around on the floor or otherwise hammered over a steel (horse) trestle at the other end of the workshop

According to the photos, we started looking at these g/box covers at 11:40am. And the photo taken ..where the cover was simply cut into two, was taken at 13:12pm ..an hour and a half later !  ..by 16:00 we had packed up.

The cuts (as darts) he'd made to bring the small rear part of the cover lower & narrower (to fit under the H-frame) was let's say "not as I would have done it".  Very ugly indeed, horribly hammered, and with just a few holding-tacks of weld to show for 4-1/4 hours work. The front / larger part of the cover hadn't yet been touched.

If I were to let it continue, then it would be a very expensive job (for what I was getting).  Perhaps it's a sad reflection on me, but I am not even able to watch someone work like this.  After doing things my own way, and just getting on with the job on my own for the past 40 years - I was getting more and more wound up.  I didn't say anything but.. I'll not continue with him doing this. 

So Friday, was such a disappointment ..when the TR3 cover itself offered such promise - with its fit and for being an easy mod. to simply slim down.   I now have to consider how best I might proceed on my own ..with no power and little space in my storage container. In the meantime I have overheating and water loss issues to worry about.

Pete

 

Did you use this as inspiration or pattern?

http://www.racetorations.co.uk/triumph-c56/tr4-c6/tr4-interior-and-trim-c41/racetorations-split-gearbox-tunnel-tr4-includes-extra-inspection-panels-p1315

 

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2 hours ago, John Morrison said:

Hi Pete,

around 3hrs from opening the car door to having the box on the bench, half to an hour to swop bits and crossdrill cross shaft, and 2Hrs plus to replace all, BUT, and here is the credit to you, not all on the same day.

I make it a rule now, half the job, one day, replacement the next, otherwise the recovery time is a number of days!

You did well.

John.

That great information John, thank you.

And 5-1/2 + hours for the whole job is inspirational. Is that two persons or on your lonesome ?  I think even if I were doing it again I might only knock three hours off., so with trim out and then back in again that would be down from 11 hours to 8 hours.  I note your reassembly time of 2 hours is less than pulling things apart, is that including refitting the interior and seat(s).?  

I like the idea of doing it over two days. Pull it apart and clean things, do the swopping of bits, and then come back the following day fresher and having had a chance to sleep-on / think-through the whole lot again ..would be the way to go.

cheers, Pete.

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1 hour ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

No, I've not seen that before, but didn't Bullfire do similar.  I can't find it in my files but I seem to recall the general concept.  I did it because the cover is so darn big and cumbersome to get out ..and the steel one especially so with its upturned flange and extra weight.  From what I've noted - the most usual need to get in there is when fault finding the overdrive's solenoid & its connections.

I haven't looked yet to see what other access I might need for g/box oil &/or adjustments, etc., but I note the hole in the top left of the TR3 cover is in a different place to that of the TR4.  I like racetorations idea of getting to the switches too. I have no idea what adjustment they might need though.  Clearly I need to do some more homework.  I was thinking of having the top of the cover quite flattish, so that a dish for loose bits n bobs, like tickets, change &/or card for the toll booth, the camera and spectacles, might sit in there.  Of course I'll have to see what space I have under the heater's flap. 

Pete.

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15 hours ago, Bfg said:

That great information John, thank you.

And 5-1/2 + hours for the whole job is inspirational. Is that two persons or on your lonesome ?  I think even if I were doing it again I might only knock three hours off., so with trim out and then back in again that would be down from 11 hours to 8 hours.  I note your reassembly time of 2 hours is less than pulling things apart, is that including refitting the interior and seat(s).?  

I like the idea of doing it over two days. Pull it apart and clean things, do the swopping of bits, and then come back the following day fresher and having had a chance to sleep-on / think-through the whole lot again ..would be the way to go.

cheers, Pete.

Hi Pete,

no that is by myself, but

I do have an home made crane, which makes the job one man safe and simple,

and I have done this a number of times now,

so you learn tips, e'g' tieing the clutch drop arm, to a hole in the bell housing, to stop it getting in the way.

If you PM an email, I'll drop you teh crane info, it has some tips that you will relate too just now, hopefully not

that you will ever need them!

John.

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Hello Pete

Just found your post after speaking to Richard. Like the look of your tr4a will we see you in it in April.

Do not be disapointed by finding a few problems with your car looks like you have a very good starting point. Once you find a problem fix it and then enjoy useing your car. Remember only one person will ever repair or maintain your vehicle it the way you want it to be and that person is you. The previous owner had probably just not noticed things going wrong. I had gearbox problems too, a bearing failed a month after I bought my old tr4a which was a cost £2k to rebuild, removed and fitted. Then had to rebuild the engine the following year.

As you say my tr4a had mk2 mx5 seats which where fitted when I bought it but I found  the original seats useless they caused me to have back ache. Not sure if fitting mx5 seats would give you more leg room you could ask the question on this site. They are more comfy though. As you rightly say a Surrey top would give you more sholder space.

mike797

ps i now have a tr6

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re. this car's cooling system.

1. on Sunday I again flushed the water by pocking a hosepipe into the radiator's bottom hose (disconnected from the radiator) so the water in the block gets flushed out. No thermostat being fitted this should flush through the radiator and out of its open bottom pipe connection.

P1380260s.jpg.5d9fcb18a6a922f1c1b9851edb934fea.jpg

2. the thermostat was in fact fitted the wrong way around, so I swapped that around when I refitted it.  It is a new item from Moss and I hadn't checked its operation before I fitted it. That's something I will now do.

3. the radiator cap had no top seal. So, once opened with pressure - some water would go to the expansion tank.  But then because there was no top seal in the cap ; as the water in the radiator cooled down and condensed again, there was no seal to create a vacuum ..to draw the water from the expansion bottle back into the radiator.

4. the overflow / expansion bottle pipe is too short (less than half way into the bottle). That ought to have worked but only the top half the bottle's capacity would have been used. However when checked (when the water was hot) - the water level in the bottle was down below the bottom of that pipe, so it would have sucked air.  

 

I now have another cap ..albeit, until I can get a correct one, it's 7psi rather than the correct 4psi.   I've just driven back from town in the car (4 miles) and the water level is still 1/2" below the radiator filler orifice.   However, the gauge was reading very hot as I drive along, and even though the engine does not appear to be pinking or rattling (the carpets and its insulation are presently off the gearbox cover, so I can hear the engine clearly) - it did overrun when I turned the ignition off.  On opening the bonnet immediate - there is no 'ticking' as if the engine was very hot.

There is still condensation under the rocker cover, but since fitting the thermostat - water has now stopped dribbling out of the radiator cap and expansion bottle when I stop (ie., there's no piddle on the ground).  I'm hoping the condensation under the rocker is residue from before, so I presently have the rocker-cover cap off, while the engine is hot to encourage it to dry out a bit.  There's little point in changing the engine oil until this coolant issue is resolved.

 

Now to the Odd Readings :

The gauge reading, from the car having been driven but then parked for two hours, very quickly read very hot (within just 3/4 of a mile of steady 30mph driving).  And the faster I drive the hotter the gauge reads, so as I'm trundling along at 30 - 40 mph the gauge reads that I'm overheating ..but then goes down to read hot (5 o'clock rather than about to boil over 4 o'clock) when I had to stop at traffic lights.    

I might suspect the sender unit but that surely wouldn't read hotter when running than at idle. ? 

I'd welcome your thoughts.

Thanks, Pete. 

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Unscrew the sender and test it in a nice hot cup of tea while you ponder the issues.

That should give you a view as to what the reading is.  
Do you have access to an infra red thermometer?  That could be used to check the thermo housings temperature 

If it is not loosing or blowing water out I would suspect over reading by the sender unit etc.

Peter W

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12 hours ago, mike797 said:

Hello Pete

Just found your post after speaking to Richard. Like the look of your tr4a will we see you in it in April.

Do not be disappointed by finding a few problems with your car looks like you have a very good starting point. Once you find a problem fix it and then enjoy using your car. Remember only one person will ever repair or maintain your vehicle it the way you want it to be and that person is you. The previous owner had probably just not noticed things going wrong. I had gearbox problems too, a bearing failed a month after I bought my old tr4a which was a cost £2k to rebuild, removed and fitted. Then had to rebuild the engine the following year.

As you say my tr4a had mk2 mx5 seats which where fitted when I bought it but I found  the original seats useless they caused me to have back ache. Not sure if fitting mx5 seats would give you more leg room you could ask the question on this site. They are more comfy though. As you rightly say a Surrey top would give you more shoulder space.

mike797

ps i now have a tr6

Great to hear from you Mike.  Rich suggested you had sold your beautiful 4A but hadn't mentioned your going so very modern as a TR6 ! :ph34r:

I agree, but that the problems find me, rather than me finding them :rolleyes:  but otherwise yes - I'll try to fix them one or two at a time.  I'm sure the car served Bob & Pat very well for many years and I do relate to how things can get progressively 'different' without they really being noticed or an issue that needs immediate attention.   But then a new owner comes along and he or she notices all sorts of niggles.  It's to be expected and accepted as all part of the classic car & motorcycle fun.  I must admit I hadn't expected the clutch or the overheating problems ..not at least so soon,  but that's wholly my own fault for wearing the rose-tinted glasses of a naive buyer.  I've no complaints though because Bob very kindly let me have the car at bottom ££ price ..and he's already done most things (like poly-bushes and new UJ's with grease nipples). And she's solid, very pretty and generally well maintained.  

I've read that early MX5 seat allow the driver to sit lower and further back, so that'll help.  I think my issue is that the wheel is quite flat, whereas with even another inch of dish it would better clear my leg.  Priority is of course to get the car running reliably and safe. Then I'll come back to the seats. In the meantime I have no dashboard H-frame support in the car, so I can cope for local trips to and from town or the farmyard (my place of working on the car).

Surrey top would be great, and so plans for one are in the pipeline. 

Look forward to seeing you in April, but I'll only come in Katie  once I'm happy that she'll not get too hot.   

Take care. Pete.   

 

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Just now, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Unscrew the sender and test it in a nice hot cup of tea while you ponder the issues.

That should give you a view as to what the reading is.  
Do you have access to an infra red thermometer?  That could be used to check the thermo housings temperature 

If it is not loosing or blowing water out I would suspect over reading by the sender unit etc.

Peter W

Thanks Peter, I was thinking the same but then the engine over-run when I turned her off.  And that I associate with overheating.

I hadn't even considered the possibility of test a sender unit like that, but yes it makes sense and is very easy to do. And I could do with a cuppa.!  

I do have an infra red thermometer ..if I can find it now that I've moved house ..and of course it's 9v battery.   I guess its reading at the sender ought to read no hotter than 82 degrees, which is when the thermostat is fully opened. ? 

I'll report back.

Pete.

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The temperature gauge symptoms may just be a faulty instrument voltage-stabiliser Pete.  Does the fuel gauge vary as well with road speed?

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1 minute ago, RobH said:

The temperature gauge symptoms may just be a faulty instrument voltage-stabiliser Pete.  Does the fuel gauge vary as well with road speed?

No the fuel gauge seems to read consistently as far ..as it goes. The seller had warned me that the gauge wasn't very accurate, but it doesn't vary with road speed. 

Pete   

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The temperature gauge may be wired direct to the ignition supply, & not to the stabiliser. If so it will over read, & read even hotter if the engine is reving higher.

Bob.

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13 minutes ago, Lebro said:

The temperature gauge may be wired direct to the ignition supply, & not to the stabiliser. If so it will over read, & read even hotter if the engine is reving higher.

Bob.

Thanks both Rob and Bob.  I don't know anything about voltage stabilisers but have a w/shop manual and can otherwise check where the wires run to.  However I might add that the gauge appeared to be reading correct (cold, or just-off cold) when I had no thermostat in.  But whether that was cold (8 o'clock) at low revs and just-off cold (7:30) at higher revs I honestly couldn't say.    

Pete.

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