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Hiccups in our best laid plans...

Re-torquing the cylinder head / gasket leak into the coolant - mostly worked.   I'll probably try again as it's by far the easier option.

Parts order arrived from Moss today - mostly  there.   158777X    Pin C/Fork Securing      Ord Qty: 1     Del Qty: 0 (nil) 

.                                                                                                Fed Ex Next day delivery      £8.95+ VAT

And the car is booked in to have the clutch fork pin replaced, first thing on Thursday. :unsure:

I'm asking my local TSSC group if anyone happens to have a spare pin in their box of bits that I might have for the time being, collect in person tomorrow, to be returned asap.

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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Thanks Ian,  The issue is more a matter of delivery at this late stage, in advance of having the job booked in. 

However, I dropped a line to members in our local TSSC group yesterday evening, and Colin our AO not only happens to have a new one in preparation for his rebuilding a gearbox, but is also passing by Ipswich on the A14 this morning  ..So I think I've been saved. 

That said I'm still awaiting a parcel from another supplier, with new bearings, gearbox oil and other parts in, which I now hope will arrive today.

Pete.

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Yesterday, I needed to drive across to near Wattisham Airfield, as a friend Andrew had in his loft my steel gearbox cover from a TR3.  I bought and collected it on the way back from the Duxford Triumph meeting a couple of years ago, intending to fit it into Chance  ..the American project TR4 I was trying to buy.  I've been advised that the cover won't fit a TR4A without very extensive modification but, as the gearbox was coming out anyway, now is opportune to see how practical it might be to do such changes.   I'll report back on that later in the week.

While over there, Andrew was keen to see what I'd bought in Katie,  and so in observance of social distancing (he was on one side of the car and I the other) I took a moment to check the water level in the radiator again.  Unfortunately it had gone down.  Not nearly as much as was being pushed out before I re-torqued the head ..but still things are ominously not right.  I then also notice fuel pouring out of the forward carburettor's float bowl.  Fuel was on top of the cap but also running down (when the engine was running) onto the wiring loom and puddling in the bottom corner of the inner wing.  

Standing there, in the fine drizzling rain, I cut 3/4" off the end off each of the two pipes & then tried fitting smaller (better fitting) jubilee clips, and then also replaced a length of pipe, each of which made little improvements - but when flexed the petrol would pour out again.  I suspected a cracked cap, because as I say the petrol was also on top of the cap, whereas Andrew more suspected the gasket.  Thankfully he was correct. The gasket must, I think, have been a home-made piece of thin card, which was mostly missing and otherwise turned to mush in my fingers.  Again good fortune was with me, insomuch as Andrew has seven classic cars including a Mk3 GT6 and 1500 Spitfire, the latter of which kindly donated the correct float bowl gasket.  I didn't investigate why the petrol level should be so high in bowl, nor the condition of the other float bowl's gasket. They'll be jobs for another (hopefully drier) day closer to home.        :rolleyes:

Pete.

 

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Pete.

I don't know where your "kit" is coming from, but, Unless it was pretty expensive the chances are that the main ball bearings in it are low quality.

I found this when I bought a gearbox kit from Moss last year. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/repair-kit-gearbox-tgk113.html?assoc=114711

It comes with these bearings    https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/bearing-mainshaft-centre-058391.html?assoc=114714

They also sell these original quality ones  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/bearing-mainshaft-centre-oe-quality-058391rhp.html?assoc=610589

As you can see, a considerable difference in cost.

In fitting the kit bearings, they loosened up to the point of being unusable. This was partly due to the hardness of the steel used, & partly due to them being extremely tight on the shafts.

Bob.

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Re the TR3 / TR4 gearbox covers, we covered (sorry) this a while ago, the castings are compatible, although the TR4 one will not have a dipstick hole.

The selectors are not, in fact the reverse selector is totally different.  It is possible to fit the TR4 selectors & rods to the TR3 casting - but why would you ?

Bob.

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Thanks Bob, I suspect you're five pages ahead of me.. as I am waiting for the bearings (more correctly bushes) etc for the clutch lever shaft.  I will however take the opportunity to change the thrust-bearing and friction plate, and also do an oil change and clean the filters while the gearbox is out of the car.  

And the steel cover I'm referring to is the one over the gearbox covered over with carpet, in preference to the pressed cardboard construction supplied with the TR4 

I'm not into rebuilding the gearbox just yet.  Sorry for the confusion.

Cheers, Pete.

 

Edited by Bfg
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Im afraid that gearbox cover wont fit on a 4a as the step on the floors will push it up too high to fit the "H" frame so it`ll also be too high for the prop tunnel and the front end wont have anywhere to bolt to as theres a lip on the 4a bulkhead and the cover bolts downwards whereas the earlier cover bolts forward into the bulkhead.

Stuart.

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Pete how much water have you in you radiator, my tr only had water up to top side of the fins inside the radiator if I filled it up to the top it would push it out into the overflow bottle, it my be you have to much in.

Mike Redrose Group 

 

regarding the oil filter if you have the old paper filter and you are having no problem with it why change it, 

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Thanks Stuart, that is a very useful insight.

Mike, when I removed the radiator cap yesterday - the water-level was perhaps 1/2" below the core level. That is from being full and then having driven about 20 miles on Sunday (after re-torquing the head) and then an additional 10 - 13 mile drive across to Wattisham. 

My understanding of expansion tanks is that the hot, and therefore volume increased (expanded), water in the radiator over-flows into the expansion tank. As the water cool it contracts again, and the water is sucked back into the radiator.  The water level should then remain at much the same level for any given temperature. And as I checked it soon after arriving at my friends house the water in the radiator should have been at a high (volume increased) overflowing level, not low.

Regarding the oil filter, I am considering changing it simply for the ease and cleanliness of changing it.  Anything that makes life easier, without lessening its engineering performance, or distracting from the character of the car to drive, or being incongruously modern - is good for me.  This being in context of Katie  not being, nor will it be restored to, standard or concourse. Nor does the car have a history that might best be preserved.

Pete.  

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I always leave the water at least an inch below the inner cap lip to allow for expansion. If there is an expansion bottle with sealed cap,  as long as the pipe into it reaches the bottom of the bottle-it just serves as an extra reservoir that siphons back into the rad upon cooling.

Mick Richards

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14 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

I always leave the water at least an inch below the inner cap lip to allow for expansion. If there is an expansion bottle with sealed cap,  as long as the pipe into it reaches the bottom of the bottle-it just serves as an extra reservoir that siphons back into the rad upon cooling.

Mick Richards

Provided you have the right rad cap, a recovery cap is the one needed.

Stuart.

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& you need a very good seal on the overflow pipe to rad junction.  I modified my standard TR3 cap by removing the thin metal spring from under the cap edge, & replacing it with a rubber seal.

Bob.

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22 hours ago, Bfg said:

Hiccups in our best laid plans...

Re-torquing the cylinder head / gasket leak into the coolant - mostly worked.   I'll probably try again as it's by far the easier option.

Parts order arrived from Moss today - mostly  there.   158777X    Pin C/Fork Securing      Ord Qty: 1     Del Qty: 0 (nil) 

.                                                                                                Fed Ex Next day delivery      £8.95+ VAT

And the car is booked in to have the clutch fork pin replaced, first thing on Thursday. :unsure:

I'm asking my local TSSC group if anyone happens to have a spare pin in their box of bits that I might have for the time being, collect in person tomorrow, to be returned asap.

Colin, our AO of the TSSC came up trumps with providing a clutch fork pin, and was even driving passed Ipswich this morning on the A14 - so I met him at a junction to collect it.  Absolutely brilliant ..and it was good to see a fellow Triumph member in person, albeit over the socially distanced roof of a car..

Water is still overflowing and draining away. I fear head gasket woes.

Interior being removed. . .

P1380153s.jpg.6ee3199dbacb03d79170399657b43b3b.jpg

^ Passenger seat, carpets, H frame removed. One of the two top bolts "securing" the H-frame to the dashboard were very loose, undone only a turn to remove the nut, and the other had fallen out and was under the carpet. Clearly scuttle shake was doing its damnedest to break free !

Thereafter the tunnel-carpets and felt, and all the bolts holding the fibreglass cover down were removed, so now cover is now loose now and ready to lift out.  There were no fastenings into the bulkhead itself.  For reference, working outside in the yard, it took me 50 minutes to get thus far, but that did include me taking lots of reference photos, as it's been 35 years since I last did this.

Pete.

   

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Hello Pete

i have a 4a hood with a fabric cover need to check if mohair/double duck/canvas in black if interested. I also have a red carpet set, fitted but the car was never used. i just need to find where they are.

As you are probably learning when you store stuff away it is getting to it and then finding it.

Roy

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Clutch-fork pin replaced, 3/16" dia roll pin fitted and lock-wired in ..as I learned here, the clutch itself replaced, and successfully all back together again (save the interior), I drove home in the car at six this evening ...all THANKS to invaluable advice from learned gentlemen of this Forum, to Rich for helping me in sourcing parts, and to Colin ..the AO of our TSSC group, who came to a very timely rescue with letting have his own new clutch fork pin.   

After months of activity, and then a 9 hour day today of clambering over, under and contorted inside - I'm knackered !!   ..so I'll report with photos on the forum over the weekend. Perhaps my thumb will have stopped throbbing by then ! ?

Pete

.

 

Edited by Bfg
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8 hours ago, roy53 said:

Hello Pete

i have a 4a hood with a fabric cover need to check if mohair/double duck/canvas in black if interested. I also have a red carpet set, fitted but the car was never used. i just need to find where they are.

As you are probably learning when you store stuff away it is getting to it and then finding it.

Roy

Absolutely understand about storing stuff away and then getting to it ..having recently contracted into a 3 bed house, garage and sheds into a studio apartment and 12 ft of a 20ft shipping container.!

I'm very tired indeed tonight but I'll drop you a line of the weekend.

Cheers, Pete

.

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On 3/15/2021 at 8:02 PM, Ian Vincent said:

Pete,

If your head gasket still leaks and you aren't  in a position to fix it the conventional way, I have successfully used something called Steel Seal in the past.  Costs about £30.

Rgds Ian

I can visualise  how radiator seal might work when water is leaking out of the radiator or jacket (ie., pressure of the water inside versus atmospheric pressure) ..but how might that work when the high pressure of the combustion is blowing into the water jacket.  Surely even 'Steel Seal' can only form an impervious skin, which in turn will split open by the pressure of the gasses ballooning it ?   

I ask because, the car's overflowing water is as bad now as ever.  And that water looks as rusty & frothy as before I re-torqued the cylinder head. Things I feel have gotten worse ..still without a thermostat fitted.  And without that - the engine runs cold, so I need to pull the out choke every time I pull away from a junction or tight corner.  And aside from not being a good driving experience - it's not good because the rich petrol-air mix will wash lubricant from the cylinder bores.  

So yesterday I fitted a new 82 deg. thermostat.  And now the car's gauge is back to showing overheating.  I didn't understand that, but on reflection I wonder if that thermostat is in the wrong way around ?  Being tired, distracted and frustrated by in-your face rap music and my spanner man / metal-bashing restorer not doing things as I might have hoped ..and so without thinking much about it - I fitted it (the thermostat) the same way as the old one had been (judging by the old gasket's impressions). 

I don't know without taking it out again, but I'm wondering if that may be with its wax-bulb facing into the top-hose elbow, ie., towards the radiator.. which is not in the flow of hot water on the engine's side of the thermostat.  Duh !  ..I can be so  stupid at times, as it's obvious when one stops and thinks - that hot water is necessary around its wax bulb to open the thermostat.   I'll open it up again and check that before I go much further.      

It's all rather disappointing that this value of car is so much work, so much additional cost, and after two weeks is still un-driveable, for more than just a few miles. 

Pete.

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Pete, Steel seal is aimed at blown head gaskets not just sundry water leaks. There are other products that claim to do the same thing. 

Rgds Ian

PS but sounds like you do need to lift the head. 

Edited by Ian Vincent
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On 3/18/2021 at 9:04 PM, Bfg said:

Clutch-fork pin replaced, 3/16" dia roll pin fitted and lock-wired in ..as I learned here, the clutch itself replaced, and successfully all back together again (save the interior), I drove home in the car at six this evening ...all THANKS to invaluable advice from learned gentlemen of this Forum, to Rich for helping me in sourcing parts, and to Colin ..the AO of our TSSC group, who came to a very timely rescue with letting have his own new clutch fork pin. 

Thursday g/box & clutch out and fix it !

starting soon after 9am ;

P1380168s.jpg.1df418c120ce1cb39fdfce8e6929afdd.jpg

^ 9.47am ; Having released the gearbox cover the evening before, it was just a few seconds to remove it completely, and then the gear change lever, the wires to the overdrive switches & solenoid, and to remove the solenoid itself so that it didn't get damaged.

The speedo cable and its 90-deg drive, the earthing wires from under the gear-change top cover nuts, and the prop / drive shaft were also released, and the handbrake lever (on the tunnel) was removed ..so the gearbox may be drawn up and backwards from the engine.  And the bell-housing bolts were removed

P1380175s.jpg.3536fd6d533fefd129d1213aac62a02c.jpg

^ 10:05am ; ready to lift into the air to remove the bottom bell housing bolts, the clutch slave cylinder, and two big nuts under the gearbox rubber mount.  

P1380196as.jpg.85eddac89a8bb5c1b9a6e5cd3bf08066.jpg

^ 10:37 ;  This was the amount of free play in the lever.

All ready to remove the gearbox but no experience in how to do it.  My understanding was that the workshop had a gearbox hoist, whereas they only had a gearbox stand to support the gearbox as it is dropped  out.  But this gearbox was to come out from inside the car but the dashboard is in the way to get a hoist in. 

The back-end of the engine is to be supported on a jack (block of timber to protect the sump) and so we tried to get a second trolley jack under the bell housing to roll it back on.  That didn't work because Tommy had removed the front wheels and the car was hanging on the two poster lift, so that and its arms were in the way.  And off the two poster would have been too low to get his trolley jack under.  I went off to my storage container, to get my small trolley jack.. by which time Steve (who has the workshop) had come up with the good idea to use a longer piece of wood between the first trolley jack and the sump.  When pulled back, the bellhousing would then drop onto that. . .

P1380201.jpg.565b64316c67aca81f1f91bf97a69271.jpg

^ I was more concerned about getting the shaft & its spline back in again, so added to his idea by packing other pieces of plywood on top of that first board (now sandwiched tight under the sump).  And those were of the right thickness (about 20mm higher) to support the bellhousing itself (so no dropping down - which also meant no lifting up when it was refitted). . .

With the trolley lifting the boards / back end of the engine a little and me lifting n' pulling the back end of the gearbox (mounting studs out of the cross member's holes) Tommy was then able to slide the gearbox back. A little more tilt, lift and twist cleared the gearbox's prop-shaft flange over the rear part of the tunnel.  An 18" length of 4"x 1-1/2" timber was then placed across the floor (spanning the hole) so the gearbox could then be swiveled around and slid further back from under the heater matrix and dashboard on that.  It worked well.

P1380203.jpg.25ed5909c50dec8ffc1c175700eb9b75.jpg

^ 12.03pm ; gearbox out ..three hours. I would have thought a competent workshop, familiar with TR's, with suitable equipment and the right sized tools to hand, might have done this in half the time.  Nevertheless it was out, with fingers and car otherwise intact, and so the task could be got on with. 

P1380212s.jpg.2949cdadab78a8bae179bd1ef32117d2.jpg

^ unfortunately the clutch was shot, not just the friction plate but the diaphragm fingers were well worn too.  I had a new one in stock but had hoped not to need it because my spare engine's lightened flywheel & crankshaft had been balanced with it.. Nevertheless it was needed and so swapped out.

P1380210s.jpg.341690ff37b96196fd56b8c057dc76d4.jpg

^ so very close to being down to the rivets.

P1380206s.jpg.ad7603dcfa3560bf0b77907177185284.jpg

^ I suspect the oil wash is from the engine's crankshaft rear scroll. the thrust bearing of course whirs when spun.  By the stiffening web, just seen below the middle of the cross shaft and the clutch release fork, you might notice the shiny end of a pin, quietly hiding in the corner there. 

P1380213as.jpg.e86466cc410cec87d7ea993a34f46819.jpg

^ 1. the sheared-off taper pin, which should be twice as long as you see.  With that part of the pin removed, the clutch release fork still would pull not slide down and off the cross shaft.  So the shaft was quickly cut through, close to the fork, which allowed each piece to be withdrawn from the bell housing.  2. I later spotted the clutch release fork was cracked close to where the pin screws in. I only hammered a drift against the fork and so I don't think I broke it, but anyway it was now scrap.Thankfully I had been well advised to buy both a new shaft and a new fork.

  3. the little pin, found in the bottom of the bell housing, was from where that clutch release fork n' shaft had been drilled at 90-degrees ..but it had fallen out !  

P1380215s.jpg.dd3a753f0288abfc77739c8d8bd565eb.jpg

^ The cross-shaft bushes were replaced ..you wouldn't believe how loose the shaft was in its old very-narrow bushes. Indeed, when I first looked, I thought the bushes were missing altogether (the shaft itself was worn).  I only needed two of the four replacement bushes I had bought, as these are about 2-1/2 times the width of the original ones. I fitted the old ones too, as they weren't actually in bad shape. I suspect they had been replaced when the car was restored 22 years ago (38k miles ago) but perhaps the rebuilder didn't have a replacement shaft to hand.   

P1380218s.jpg.66dea4d4b3da0684ce18f86648dd9f15.jpg

^ 15:17pm : with the new taper pin fitted, the new clutch release fork and shaft were drilled at 90 degrees for a 3/16" x 1-1/2" roll-pin.  The shaft is solid steel so it took a little while.  Its pilot hole was done with a brand new 3.5mm drill bit and cutting fluid, and then the 3/16" drill bit finished the hole to the correct size.   By the way., the shaft's hole through the release fork needed honing before the shaft would go through. 

P1380219s.jpg.fdbbc00e916897fed22cda06fdc8e670.jpg

^ The thrust bearing's bush was pressed out of the old and into the new. The inside of this was cleaned out and it, and the gearbox shaft, liberally smeared with molybdenum-disulfide grease.  During final assembly, this bearing assembly has to be fitted before the taper pin is fitted into the release fork.

P1380222s.jpg.38f5b5ae94d174f9dc5781c6e9531c27.jpg

^ the roll pin was cut to length ..leaving about 1mm poking out of either side, before being wired in place, together with the standard taper pin.  It's galvanised wire.  The fitted assembly was then lightly smeared with grease to help dispel moisture (rust).   

. . to be continued  ..after a cup of coffee.

Pete

 

Edited by Bfg
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Thursday continued . .

P1380216s.jpg.0ae9214a224a66c0b381af8e78408013.jpg

^ the new clutch fitted.  It's not that I'm a bit of a pack-rat but I still had the clutch-centering tool I'd bought back in the mid-'90s when I last worked on a TR4.! 

P1380223s.thumb.jpg.3e4547708fcc01b8dd0a4bc2defafd1c.jpg

^ 16:07pm ; The all new clutch release mechanism together and ready to fit, with the Borg & Beck red grease on the gearbox splines. The thrust bearing shaft's new plain bushes were fitted flush to the outside of bell-housing case, and the old bushes refitted (with bearing Loctite) inside of those.

25 minutes later . . .

P1380224s.jpg.d0a1fe33576dae1f1586de691ce64ba1.jpg

^ 16.32pm ; the refitting of the gearbox was the reverse of it coming out, save the jack under the engine with its gearbox support boards was adjusted to get the tilt alignment right, as the gearbox rubber mount's studs cleared the chassis cross brace. Tommy adjusted the height as I eased the gearbox forward.  

I might add that, as we were swiveling the gearbox in on the timber spanning the hole in the floor, I had one hand on the bell housing. The weight of the overdrive suddenly toppled that end down and the bellhousing pivoted upwards - my thumb nail was caught between the bellhousing and the underside corner of the heater box.  Neither of those were damaged nor did they shout out !  And neither of those now have a very bruised black thumb nail as a reminder of this auspicious happening.. the gearbox being back in situ.

P1380225s.jpg.5abfd96061b3660bd63fd1fbe1131719.jpg

^ The race was then on to get the bell-housing holes aligned and its bolts in, and to get everything reassembled enough to drive the car home that evening.

P1380198as.jpg.7c97b7723bb16fbea410350ebe07de28.jpg

^ The bottom bell housing bolts of course needed refitting, and while down under - the clutch hydraulic pipe had to be disconnected ..so the slave cylinder's mounting plate could then be fitted onto the other side - where it should be (..the slave cylinder should be on the engine side of that plate).  'Interestingly' the clutch master cylinder's cap was seized on and the reservoir was all but empty ..it wouldn't have worked for very much longer without sucking air rather than the last dregs of its filthy black brake fluid.  That is now flushed through.

The clutch pedal was so light that (thinking there was air in the pipe) I suggested to Tommy that it wouldn't pump up.!    

My last photo was timed at 17:28pm, so the task took the two of us 8 hrs 28 minutes.  I wonder how long it would have taken a commercial garage or even an experienced crew ?  The gearbox cover and interior / passenger seat etc weren't refitted, because they'd only have to come out again the following day, but my mistake was to not drop the cover in place ..to close the hole, as I drove home.  It was a mistake, made in haste because Tommy needed to rush off to catch a train, but I was thinking that the handbrake lever had to be removed again to get the g/box cover on. Of course that was only necessary to get the gearbox far enough back over the rear part of the tunnel. 

It appears my not fitting it has cost me a Samsung Galaxy phone, which has just disappeared ..I guess having skated across the floor and down through the hole in the floor !      Stupid boy Pike.

Oddly, after the 2-1/2 mile drive home, I pulled into this apartment block's car park, and not having the cover over the gearbox showed a flickering of orange flame from under the bonnet.  I swung straight into the nearest parking spot opened the bonnet to be faced with what appeared to be a bonfire !  Tommy had been refilling the clutch cylinder and, while he was changing to leave, I had refitted the cap and closed the bonnet.  I hadn't spotted the small silver bottle of brake fluid sitting amidst the silver manifolds behind the carburettors.  The heat of the exhaust manifold had melted a small hole the plastic bottle and its brake fluid had ignited. I'm a big chap and, being duly motivated ( ! )  ..I managed to blow the flames out.  Ironically, had the gearbox cover had been in place &/or had it still been be daylight - I wouldn't have spotted those flames or their smoke immediately. 

Being unfamiliar with another person's way of working + my haste to get the car done and out of the workshop that evening - very nearly caused a catastrophe.  Again I can be truly thankful that just two days earlier I had spotted and fixed petrol leak from the carburettor - Wow ! 

P1380229s.jpg.b9ff12e283d38db069a07cf499713e80.jpg

^ photo taken the following morning.

Even though I'd not have put the bottle of fluid there, Tommy was simply keeping the bottle handy as he topped the fluid up, and not wanting to place a bottle of fluid down on the bulkhead's paint ..Fair enough, but it's still something that good workshop practices would easily avoid. 

I hope it is a lesson we all might learn from ..

                                                          Calamity Pete !

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Great write up Pete. 
and all done in a day. 
 

Lucky escape with the fire. I’m sure we all do things we shouldn’t especially after a long strenuous days work.  And your car has made it’s new owners  mark on you with the thumb nail. You have a common bond now - like blood brothers 

enjoy the car. 

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Thanks Hamish,

Any idea how long the job has taken others, or does anyone have experience of what it costs to just take to car into a old school type garage ?   

I'm trying to ascertain whether my trying to do these jobs on a tight budget is actually saving me money or whether a Triumph specialist would be as cost effective because they are already tuned into these cars cars and any particular task. ?

Pete.

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