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That was a year that was..

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On 3/22/2020 at 7:49 PM, Bfg said:

 

I have had to scrap badly pitted worm-gear wheels, made in bronze (..and very expensive to buy nowadays !) from the rear-drive of a post-war Sunbeam motorcycle ..because a prior owner used EP gear oil in it (standard spec is straight 90 mineral oil).   But perhaps EP gear oil has different chemicals which caused that.?   Still, I was warned that some high-detergent engine oils can be damaging / corrosive to certain metals such as the bronze bushes and gears (speedo-drive gear for example) used in older engines. I don't know this for a fact, but I do tend to heed such warnings. 

Pete.

That would be GL5 spec  Gear oil which really doesnt like Brass/bronze items. Always use GL4 where these parts are present.

Stuart.

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On Monday my engine's new camshaft arrived from Newman Cams.. I'm glad to see that they are trading and able to provide these excellent camshafts once again. 

P1340545s.jpg.d9ced79538c41320506c80899837f3ee.jpg.

^ The old camshaft is that in the foreground and a new set of cam followers is seen behind the brand new PH1 camshaft.  I had supplied my engine's camshaft to Newman ..for their opinion as to why, despite almost no wear, there were chips out of the cam lobes ?   Ken Newman's thoughts were that the damage was most likely to have been caused by the valve springs becoming coil bound.

Coil bound  for those unfamiliar with the term, describes the situation when ; the value of (wire diameter) x (the number of coils which make up the spring) when fully compressed is greater than the space they are asked to squeeze into - then things lock up.   ie.,  it is to do with the physical size when compressed and not the stiffness of the spring.

In the scenario of our engine's valve springs ; the camshaft lobe is turned to lift the cam-follower and push-rod, which in turn tilts the rocker arm to open the valve. In doing so the column of forces compress the valve springs between top and bottom collars.  When the cam-lobe lift is greater than standard spec. - the valve opens further, but also the distance between these collars is reduced.  When it is insufficient (too short a length) to accommodate the fully compressed spring's length - it becomes coil-bound.  In the extreme it can totally lock up the valve gear and prevent the engine from turning over.  But when just a little too tight (..even just a few thousands of an inch) then the metal parts flex just enough for it to work, but at the same time - it excessively loads every part.  Something has to give so the spring might slip sideways a little, or the push-rods bend, the rocker arm's contact pads get dented in,  the camshaft is loaded until bits chip off it, and the rocker-arm shaft and bearings get a hammering.  In fact everywhere throughout the valve chain is subjected to more loading that it was intended to, from the cam-chain and its sprockets to the camshaft bearings, to the tappet adjuster screws, and even the bolts which hold the rocker shaft to the cylinder head.    

On my own engine - this would also account for the damage apparent on the rocker arm pads, which have crater like indentations rather than being recessed by long-term wear,  and likewise the excessive wear of the rocker-arm shaft  ..which added together now measure perhaps 0.025" ?   One might only guess what, being that much too tight, has done to the push rods. 

Note.,  when the engine is cold - it might still be free enough to turn freely without coil binding - but as each part thermally expands in length, when the engine gets hot - then it can be too tight - and then damage is done. 

P1340547s.jpg.f83872b950c03b5b0ecd1a00d8918467.jpg.

As I haven't an accurate means to measure the ratings of the valve springs which were fitted, not least because at the time they with the cylinder head at the machine shop, I had a set sent directly to Ken - who had kindly agreed to measure them for me.  His assessment was that those valve springs were slightly stiffer and with larger diameter wire coils than original specification, and dependent on the cups used were probably too tight for the extra valve lift of the camshaft that was in this engine (# A MC24174 307036) ..and so they became coil bound. According to the Moss catalogue that is a Triumph 'replacement' camshaft number.  

Newman and others recommend standard (original spec.) valve springs are used with the PH1 camshaft.  So mine need to be replaced.

P1340548s.jpg.357d5d84280fd4dd93a8fa6c6dd274cc.jpg.

^ It's of interest to compare the shape of Newman PH1 camshaft lobes (left) with that of the Triumph ' TR4 replacement' previously fitted.  Using my vernier gauge I've just measured the lift of the Newman cam lobe at  0.2775" compared with 0.266" for the old one, so the Newman has 0.011" more lift.  I cannot say what the difference is in how long the valve is opened.  

That's it for today.  I wish you a good one. B)

Pete.

 

P.S. and Btw..,  There has been no news / no photos from America, with regard to getting this project TR4A  together enough for shipping - which after I conceded (several times) was meant to have happened at the end of March.  Then they asked for another couple of weeks, because of family preparations needed for the pandemic,  so always glad to be understanding - I suggested the end of April.  Being in lock-down ought to give Raymond a chance to get such tasks at home done.  That deadline is tomorrow.  It's very disappointing to have heard nothing.

I made the offer to buy this project, complete with its spare TR6 chassis (but without his TR6 engine or the MX5 seats) exactly one year ago now. The offer was counter-proposed and so we agreed on the 6th May.   I try very hard to keep to any agreement I make and to be a man of my word ..even if my own circumstance happen to change.  But I'm feeling aggrieved by the way this transaction has repeatedly not happened and with my being led along.  I do feel for the seller who by his own account has had a very bad year,  but surely - to pack every loose TR part into boxes, and place those inside the car,  and to build a simple wooden cradle legs (which I supplied a cutting list for and which I was to pay another $500 for) to mount the spare chassis on - should not take more than a week of spare evenings.  Naturally, I feel I've been shown to be a trusting FOOL  ..which I may be, but I'd rather not like to show it !   

Inside, I am just very upset   ..so as of tomorrow's deadline - I will be writing to Raymond to say that our time-expired agreement has come to an end. 

Whether I pursue my old-man's-final-ambition to own a Michelotti Triumph sports car remains to be seen.   I will put this engine together again to the best of my ability,  but then whether I sell it,  mothball it,  or find another car to drop it into is uncertain.  I am undecided.

I would however like to express a  BIG THANK  YOU  to all that have been a welcoming friend through the club meetings, the rallies,  and through this forum..

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up

Chin up 

Cheers Rich

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Hi Pete

Its disappointing when things don't go to plan ,as Rich says keep your chin up something will crop up I'm sure, if I hear of anything worth while Ill let you know

Chris

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BFG,

Did we correspond a little while ago, about cam profiles?     I was measuring one of mine, and while it's time consuming, we all have lots of time right now!

18248543_camcheckingontabletop.thumb.jpg.29f4b4d6deaeccd9528564488f8633c0.jpg

A couple of V-blocks and a dial gauge, and you can derive the complete curve of the cams.     It'll reveal Newsman's secrets of course, but I don't suppsoe you have signed a 'non-disclosure agreement" with them?

691606223_Cranecamprofileinthou.thumb.jpg.0f0a588272d9a0e05b38c7f2c83e5eb0.jpg

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Hey John where do we get lots of time from ?   I have enough project work to keep me busy for another two years ! :rolleyes:

We haven't corresponded cam-profiles before.   I'm actually very happy with the reputation of Newman's PH1 camshaft to fit it without question.  And having not driven the car with the old camshaft in - I have no reference datum for any further measurements to mean anything. 

Cheers, Pete.

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On 3/20/2020 at 8:25 PM, Bfg said:

Having seen the job done on Mike's TR4 (Brenda )'s crankshaft - which necessitated his having to buy a replacement ..because his had been previously 'balanced' so badly and was beyond retrieving - I now see this in mine.   I fail to see how so much needed to be removed from the balancing Triumph had originally done ?   It gets worse on the other end . . .

I was reading TR action #185 from March 2003 the other evening and happened upon a letter penned by Mr Dave Worne which may shed light on this 'issue', my genuine concern, and how my own crankshaft may actually be fine ..despite first impressions !  

Dave's letter (copied below)  starts off by saying that his car's engine was fine.  The engine pulled well and was smooth running, but then due to an unfortunate error the crankshaft was damaged.  And after being rebuilt with another crankshaft - the car just never felt right.  The crankshaft was stripped out again and this time was balanced together with the flywheel.  However, the new balancing on the flywheel was contrary to the original balancing (drilled holes). 

Mr Worne goes on to speculate that the Triumph factory balancing was done as a crankshaft and flywheel assembly,  and when his engine's crankshaft was replaced - it threw the whole dynamics out of kilter ..and then a noticeable amount of metal had to be removed to get the whole new assembly  back in balance. 

P1340549.thumb.JPG.78f99bdb28b276e7e28fe2bb396f0978.JPG.

This simple explanation may be nothing new to you guys  ..but I'd not read of it before.  Unfortunately Mr Worne's query ..regarding factory practice of balancing, doesn't appear have been answered in the magazine, but then I seem to be missing issue #187.

My own TR4A engine ; was not quite the same because the crankshaft has not been changed, but the principle of why it was so far out-of-balance might be ..because when bought it - it lacked the original flywheel.  I bought a TR3 flywheel (..because it's 10 - 12 lb lighter than a TR4A one) and had that converted to suit a TR4A starter motor and clutch.  The crank and the lighter flywheel were each individually balanced, and then balanced (together with the new clutch cover) as an assembly.   The machine shop was surprised by how much out of balance it was,  and I was led to question the amount of metal crudely removed during their balancing it.  

But I now see Mr Worne's supposition as being insightful and logical ..after all if Triumph could get away with balancing the rotating assembly once rather than piece meal and then again all together - it would have been simpler logistics and a useful cost saving.  And insightful for us to also know., because if he is correct - then either changing the crank or having a non-original-to-that-particular-engine flywheel, or lightening one - necessitates the whole assembly to be re-balanced  ..which is what most gurus say  (but without their actually explaining ' why ' ..when the parts were originally balanced).

But, I am now wondering if balancing the crankshaft individually was counter productive, insomuch as it may have resulted in more metal being carved out of the crankshaft than might otherwise have been necessary  ..had it only been balanced as a complete assembly. ?   

Of course, if buying an engine individually / loose - it would be really worthwhile to ensure you get the original flywheel to that engine.   

And then there's that old chestnut of broken crankshafts when the fan extension is removed.  Well I must admit that cast-iron piece on my own engine wasn't even true / turned in a lathe to be symmetrical.  And it, its central bolt, the pulley & the fan all together weighed over 3kg.  So sure - if it was likewise factory balanced as part of ' the assembly '  ..then when removed - the crank's balance might be thrown way off. And more so on some engines than others because there had been no effort to make it symmetrical so no two would be the same.. Lighten the flywheel at same time as fitting an electric fan and hey-ho the dynamics would be all over the shot..

I'll leave the thought with you.

Pete.

 

Edited by Bfg

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I have always thought the parts should be balanced individually, & finally checked as a whole to get the best result.

Bob.

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This could all be in my dreams....  I recall seeing a factory training film on building the 4 cylinder TR engine and want to remember seeing the fan and its hub assembly being balanced on knife edges. 

The 'out of balance' was adjusted by moving  the half moon balance piece around, when correct a small hole was drilled through the balance piece, fan, and into the cast iron extension.  The fan bolt lock tab was positioned so the drill could pass through one of its slots.  Reassembly of the balanced unit was therefore easy, poke a drill through the three holes to align and fit all the bolts etc.

 

In 1972 my own TR2 engine ran so much sweeter after I had removed the metal propeller from the front of the crank.  I was probably getting rid of a previous owners mistake of mounting the fan to the hub incorrectly.  The engine had thrown a rod (the PO told me) and that had meant a replacement crank and one con rod.  When rebuilding the engine a while later I found the crank was a scoll backed item from later TR and the conrod was small BE bolt Vanguard.  The crank remains in use in a TR2 and the conrod is the basis of my piston crown machining clamp.

On subsequent engines I have followed the perceived wisdom of lightening and balancing all the components individually then as assemblies.  Oselli Engineering used to do most of the tuned work for Moss when I worked there so I used them, as I believed them to be a trusted machine shop.  http://www.oselli.com/classic_oselli/engines

Last year CME at Bracknell did all the machining and the balance of TR rotating items and assembly for an engine I was involved with.  http://cmesuk.com/

Cheers

Peter W

 

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT

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Balancing an engine must include all the rotating parts, together?    That would include the flywheel, and the clutch cover, the front pulley and chain cog.

A factory might have kit to spin them separately, and so balance them, but no machine shop would.   If they claim to 'balance' a crank alone, walk away.

 

Edited by john.r.davies

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I have had two Stag crank assemblies balanced, the first one at Oselli, the second at Vibration Free (they are a bit less of a drive to get to)

Oselli balanced the flywheel and clutch cover separately as they both had material removed.

Vibration free just removed material from the clutch cover (unless the flywheel happened to be perfectly balanced)

End result will be the same, but if the clutch cover ever needed changing it would wipe out most of the balancing. I once had a clutch thrust bearing fail which wiped out the fingers of the diaphragm spring pretty quickly at a very low mileage.

Neil

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Further to a very kind post today on  My other project(s).. post-war Sunbeam m/c's  by David Bee,  I thought I'd reply here.. 

 

33 minutes ago, DavidBee said:

But I'm getting impatient about your TR project. PLEASE either snap up those two TR4s or get the US car over. If that is looking more like a pipe dream, what on EARTH is hindering the purchase of the TRs on your doorstep???

The likelihood of my getting a TR anytime soon is I am afraid very slim indeed.  This one,  from the United States, never came through ..and after a year of unfulfilled promises (regarding packed its disassembled parts loosely inside the car for shipping)  I wrote and wished them well.  

The plan had been a simple one.. to have a very usable TR4A as my daily driver, and to live on a boat (a 1972  30ft catamaran) to save my paying rent on a house.  My friend Rich asked about the possibility of a TR4 being stolen ..with it not being garaged.?   As I explained - that car had fibreglass wings and I'd deliberately not finish it to be pretty (although mechanically & structurally it should be v.good).   Anyways up ..it never happened and I was greatly disappointed ..not least because of the amount of time I'd invested  and because I had some rather obtuse plans for it.

 

Rich then very kindly introduced to the two locally available TR4A's project cases ..just at the right moment.  And I was seriously discussing buying one of them. We had negotiated a price.,  but I wanted clarification on what exactly I'd be getting and had asked for photos of dismantled parts. There was a little delay and while I was waiting for the seller to come back to me - I realised that I  need  to get on with refitting the boat and to be ready to move onto her next year  ..otherwise I'd be in deep water  :wacko:  so to speak.   I had to come to terms with the present situation (..over a year on from when I started looking to buy a TR4A), not least of which included my not being likely to have a house let alone a garage to work in ..within the next 12 months.

However much I would like to have a TR4 / 4A,  and however much I'd love to build one last car and to do my own peculiar thing with it  ..I have to face the facts.  Those being - it's now looking very unlikely indeed. 

Veronica, Membership Secretary of the East Saxons group,  is asking me to write something more for their local magazine.  And so I was thinking of sharing hitherto " my secret " pipe-dream for a TR4A shooting brake,  with chassis mods, lowered footwells and other Big n' Tall alterations. Perhaps I ought to post it here ? ..if only to give others something obscure to think about as they are in lock-down mode.

                    2077610496_TR4side-ghost2small.jpg.cc4d1d3c61d6d7ca6bbefe7fa6bcd667.jpg

Otherwise.., I do plan to finish rebuilding the TR4A engine, and of course hope to continue its write up here.  But what for ?  what then ? - I don't know.  If things were to drop into place then I'd sell my 1948 Sunbeams motorcycle ..and I'd be able to afford to buy a TR4A rolling restoration. But more likely with the pandemic's effect on the vintage motorcycle market I'll have to concede defeat and move on ..sans TR.

Pete.

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1 hour ago, Bfg said:

Further to a very kind post today on  My other project(s).. post-war Sunbeam m/c's  by David Bee,  I thought I'd reply here.. 

 

The likelihood of my getting a TR anytime soon is I am afraid very slim indeed.  This one,  from the United States, never came through ..and after a year of unfulfilled promises (regarding packed its disassembled parts loosely inside the car for shipping)  I wrote and wished them well.  

The plan had been a simple one.. to have a very usable TR4A as my daily driver, and to live on a boat (a 1972  30ft catamaran) to save my paying rent on a house.  My friend Rich asked about the possibility of a TR4 being stolen ..with it not being garaged.?   As I explained - that car had fibreglass wings and I'd deliberately not finish it to be pretty (although mechanically & structurally it should be v.good).   Anyways up ..it never happened and I was greatly disappointed ..not least because of the amount of time I'd invested  and because I had some rather obtuse plans for it.

 

Rich then very kindly introduced to the two locally available TR4A's project cases ..just at the right moment.  And I was seriously discussing buying one of them. We had negotiated a price.,  but I wanted clarification on what exactly I'd be getting and had asked for photos of dismantled parts. There was a little delay and while I was waiting for the seller to come back to me - I realised that I  need  to get on with refitting the boat and to be ready to move onto her next year  ..otherwise I'd be in deep water  :wacko:  so to speak.   I had to come to terms with the present situation (..over a year on from when I started looking to buy a TR4A), not least of which included my not being likely to have a house let alone a garage to work in ..within the next 12 months.

However much I would like to have a TR4 / 4A,  and however much I'd love to build one last car and to do my own peculiar thing with it  ..I have to face the facts.  Those being - it's now looking very unlikely indeed. 

Veronica, Membership Secretary of the East Saxons group,  is asking me to write something more for their local magazine.  And so I was thinking of sharing hitherto " my secret " pipe-dream for a TR4A shooting brake,  with chassis mods, lowered footwells and other Big n' Tall alterations. Perhaps I ought to post it here ? ..if only to give others something obscure to think about as they are in lock-down mode.

                    2077610496_TR4side-ghost2small.jpg.cc4d1d3c61d6d7ca6bbefe7fa6bcd667.jpg

Otherwise.., I do plan to finish rebuilding the TR4A engine, and of course hope to continue its write up here.  But what for ?  what then ? - I don't know.  If things were to drop into place then I'd sell my 1948 Sunbeams motorcycle ..and I'd be able to afford to buy a TR4A rolling restoration. But more likely with the pandemic's effect on the vintage motorcycle market I'll have to concede defeat and move on ..sans TR.

Pete.

No. No. NO!!!

you must PERSEVERE. Maybe some kind soul in this marvellous Register will donate a TR for you.

I understand the circumstances, but the bottle is half full.

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:D:D:D 

 

Thank you David,  I am ever the optimist. 

I'll tell you what.. Find me a sponsor to do the actual restoration work and Big n' Tall structural changes I'd like  (ie., to cover the workshop, mechanical, welding and finishing costs ..to a standard that won't p-me-off) and I'll buy one of the project cars being offered and will be a design-engineer consultant.  I'll make the ES roof and a mould myself.  I get the très  I want and will even blog both the design and build.   If that 'sponsor'  happens to be a TR related or restoration business.. then, in exchange for their generosity / contribution - they'll have the mould and build details  and  they'll also benefit from hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of international car-magazine publicity for their company !

That seems reasonable to me.  The conversion could then be offered to any Michelotti TR owner ..in much the same way as traditional coach-builders converted Aston Martin, Jaguars, Allards and host of other sporting tourers  ..so we all win. B)

 

I'm glad to hear the bottle's half full.,  as my glass could do with a top up  :rolleyes:   Cheers,

Pete.

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See? You have already formulated an innovative and exciting plan of work.

[Having just finished writing what you are about to read, I must apologize for its length, but hope you find it useful, or should I say "ye", since there will be other readers too].

In business terms, youurs is a well-formulated executive summary, a workable proposal. Four interested parties, potentially, and the basis for a new thread, during the development phase for discussion and feedback from members.

Before I suggest who they are, let me explain the logic of this question: why now?

We all remember PIGS, the acronym to refer to Portugal, Ireland, Greece, and Spain, the worst hit countries, ten years ago, after the sub-prime mortgage market imploded and virtual money and investment techniques suddenly became a real-world problem. Of these four, worst hit, nations, only one managed to reverse its fortunes very fast: Portugal. How? When austere economic measures were the accepted norm, Portugal decided to invest, to borrow. It was soon a thriving economy, in the face of orthodox IMF and WB so-called "regulation" and "measures".

That strategy on a macro scale works on a micro scale too, I think, which is why it is, in my opinion, a perfect time for such a dream project of this nature.

You are the right man for the job. You have the skills, the project management, experience, and enthusiasm, justified pride in your work. So here are the potentially interested parties.

1. A car magazine. The one that springs to mind is Practical Classics. You are a natural. Either for contributor status or as external serialized project. In your favour, in addition to the qualities mentioned above, there's your fine writing, clear, instructive, entertaining, not formulaic or predictable, tired, even, which their articles sometimes are. Finally, your engineering knowledge shines through in the photographs (as it does, in fairness, in some other contributors to this Forum).

It goes without saying that for a technical publication of this kind, those are the three crucial criteria:

a. Engineering knowledge.

b. More than fair for writing, a fetching personal style that endears the reader to your dilemmas, whether technically minded or not, and built on solid project management.

c. Solid grasp of illustration and graphics, and relevant scope.

2. The Register itself. What a coup it would be! Could the Register, perhaps, suggest a partnership project with PC? Boosting its profile, attracting more people, while doing so? This is a question for Wayne Scott, methinks.

3. A PC competitor, keen to get an asset like this to up its stakes, serialized, continuity, professionalism.

4. The Forum, taken more as a developing entity, rather than a help line. It has many functions, including germinating ideas. Because it voices the members' views, I am inclined to think that it is the main vehicle of communication, subject to further development. That is vague. What I am thinking of is a kind of syndicate, and namely, a group of people who believe in this project, with a clear understanding of its value, who wish it to go ahead, and will join forces to make that happen.

Note. I would contact Graham Robson, who seems approachable, for more suggestions.

David (Member no. 15333)

Edited by DavidBee

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Hi all,

My landlady dropped off a letter yesterday to say that her brother now wants to live in this house ..and so they will be instructing the agent to end my tenancy agreement.  

No date was given but I've been here 16 years and I'd rather not to discard a whole lot of  ' my stuff ' within the next 2- 3 months. 

The plan was to try and get my little boat ready to move onto (liveaboard) for this time next year, and so their timing is 6 winter months earlier than convenient.  Anyway to save trying to find and move into another house with garage and garden shed right now - I'm considering buying a 20ft container and finding somewhere to store that.  Then I'd find somewhere a tiny hovel to live in,  just until I could move onto the boat. 

So,  does anyone know anyone who sells one-trip or otherwise low mileage shipping containers ? 

Thanks, Pete.

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BFG,

You need a solicitor!    At least have a look at the Shelter page on eviction:

  https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/how_long_a_section_21_eviction_takes

You have at least three months, plus two months for a successful court order to take place, and the courts are in lockdown until the end of June.

I'd guess right now that there will be shipping companies dying to flog off a shipping contaner or two.   Try them directly?

John

 

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John,  thanks but I see no need for conflict. The Landlady has always been kind and this old-farmhouse property has been a wonderful place to live - so I am very grateful. I wouldn't want to ruin that by getting solicitors involved and all the trauma we would each experience.  

I have of course looked on-line ..at containers being advertised, but if there was someone hereabouts who had a friend or family member with those contacts and who was willing to help me out, then that would be greatly appreciated.  That's all.        

Looking on the positive side.. I'm rather glad I hadn't just last month arrange the shipping of,  or otherwise bought, a TR4 basket case.

Cheers, Pete.

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Pete

cant help with the container info 

John has several good points Both container and tenancy advice wise.

but so sorry to hear about the end of your tenancy it’s bad enough that it’s happening at all let alone at this time. 
I truly hope you get something sorted. 
H

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