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Moving on....

I am checking the valve spring clearance for full lift of the cam to ensure the springs do not go coil bound when running.  

Newman state minimum clearance between coils should be 0.050"

The Newman  PH1 cam is stated as having 0.405" lift with 1.5 ratio rockers (0.270" lobe lift) so doing the sums that means with original TR2-4 rocker, as far as I can ascertain have 1.55 ratio, the valve lift is 0.4185"  (0.419" for ease) I have checked a single rocker on a shaft and if you lift the adjuster 0.020" with a feeler gauge a dial gauge at the valve stem end measures 0.031"

The shortest fitted length on a twin spring installation is 1.5" (1.56" for outer)

Coil bound length for inner spring is 0.995"  for outer it is 0.925"

So....using length of longest coil bound spring in the shortest fitted length position (The inner spring in fact)  

We get

Stated Valve lift with 1.5 ratio rocker 0.405” (0.270” lobe lift)

Actual Valve lift using 1.55 ratio rocker = 0.419”  

Minimum recommended clearance  before coil bound 0.050”

Spring Fitted length = 1.5”  less Coil bound length = 0.995”

Available spring clearance when fitted = 0.505”

Running clearance  0.505” less lift 0.419” = 0.086” before spring goes coil bound.

 

Comments please if my rocker ratio measurement & assumption is wrong.  

 There is a lot of conflicting ratio info on the web and parts sales sites.  One company says 1.5 ratio is more aggressive than standard - so that might be incorrect if my rocker measurements are right :

Triumph TR2, TR3, TR3b, TR4 - Roller Rockers (1.5:1 Ratio)

These roller rockers fit onto the your standard rocker shaft without any modifications to the original components.

They have a 1.5 :1 lift ratio that is slightly more aggressive than standard, yet more conservative than others available elsewhere.  You'll still have a smooth Idle, but with extra power when you put your foot down.

 

Pete

Check the end bits of your push rods are secure - done by tapping the push rod on a metal surface they should sort of 'ring' if ok   Ends can be removed and refitted with loctite or araldite if you do not have a swaging tool to hand.

Also roll the pushrods on a flat surface to check for bend.  Out of 15 pushrods I checked 2 were bent and 3 others had loose ends.

Cheers

Peter W

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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12 minutes ago, Waldi said:

Hi Peter,

did you consider the valve clearance that reduces valve lift?

Cheers,

Waldi

Yes I did the calculation with and without rocker/tappet clearances.  If  you include the tappet clearances of 0.014" & 0.016" the distance to coil bound measurement increases,  giving a bigger space between the coils at full lift.  It goes to minimum of 0.100" as you lose valve lift equivalent to the tappet clearance used.

Peter W

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Peter,

It is some time ago when I did the same evaluation on my CP TR6, and had small clearances too. Cannot find my notes unfortunately.

Waldi

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18 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Moving on....

I am checking the valve spring clearance for full lift of the cam to ensure the springs do not go coil bound when running.  

Peter I have just sent a set of my engine's valve springs to Ken Newman to assess.   Either too stiff (uprated springs fitted) or coil bound may help explain the pitting and wear characteristics of the cam lobes.  NB. He has my old camshaft already. 

The lift I measured on this 'replacement camshaft' (as noted by the part number) was 0.267" whereas the standard cam lift is 0.260", so we wonder if the camshaft had been replaced (..it was a Standard Triumph part) and at the same time stiffer valve springs were fitted.  If so it might also account for the excessive wear of the rocker shaft and the indentation (more perhaps than wear) of the rocker arm pads.

Pete.  

p.s.  the TR4A uses three springs per valve, whereas earlier cars had double springs.  From what you are saying -  I wonder if this change might have been because double springs would be thicker wire and so become coil-bound sooner ?

p.p.s.  I note that shims / spacers are sold for under the rocker pedestals.  With my very limited experience - I had never such things before. With the setup on your engine how would such a shim / change in geometry effect your figures.? 

Btw.  Newman have a six week waiting at the moment for their Ph1 camshaft. They are waiting for new blanks from the foundry.

Pete

Edited by Bfg
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Hi Pete,

the TR3a uses three springs on the exhaust valves and two on the inlets and will get coil bound with a high lift cam. The TR4a uses double springs and they are the same for both inlet and exhaust. In order to fit the TR4a springs you need the appropriate valve spring caps. 

Rgds Ian

Edited by Ian Vincent
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18 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Comments please if my rocker ratio measurement & assumption is wrong.  

 There is a lot of conflicting ratio info on the web and parts sales sites.  One company says 1.5 ratio is more aggressive than standard - so that might be incorrect if my rocker measurements are right :

Triumph TR2, TR3, TR3b, TR4 - Roller Rockers (1.5:1 Ratio)

These roller rockers fit onto the your standard rocker shaft without any modifications to the original components.

They have a 1.5 :1 lift ratio that is slightly more aggressive than standard, yet more conservative than others available elsewhere.  You'll still have a smooth Idle, but with extra power when you put your foot down.

Peter,  as far as my ol' grey matter is concerned your assumption and therefore ratio is correct, as although I have not checked the maths - I might assume your calculation to be correct.  ie. the free length of 0.086" (~ 2.1mm) before the tightest inner spring becomes coil-bound.   This might be eased slightly by slimming down the spring collars top and bottom, or indeed by skimming a little off either end of the spring itself. ie., if an average of 0.0054" were taken off each collar and either end of the spring - then that would be 0.021" (~ 25% ) more running clearance. 

In practice, removing thickness of the top collar would not be easy without the machine tools,  but it may be perfectly viable to skim 0.011" off the underside of the bottom collar. Fitting shims under the pedestals, to raise them, would tend to increase the ratio.  Regrinding the shape of rocker arm's contact pad may also also be used to effect this ratio.

I would also agree with you that 1.55 to my way of thinking is "more aggressive" than a 1.5 ratio.  And while I appreciate the advantages of lightness and reduced friction / wear in using aluminium roller rockers for racing (when allowed) - I personally consider the copy-righter's claim ..in any sense of noticing any difference in power when driving or in recorded lap times, to be far-stretched.

Pete.

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FWIW I’m using a Newman PH1 cam with standard rockers and TR4a double springs and I don’t get coil binding on either inlet or exhaust. With the same cam and TR3a triple springs on the exhaust I got coil binding. 

Rgds Ian

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Not a whole lot of progress to report ..but a smattering of jobs interspersed with everyday life from the past couple of weeks.

As mentioned above, the camshaft was sent to Newman Cams - to see if they might be able to identify why cam lobes had chunks missing.  I spoke to Ken Newman and he thought the wear on the leading edge of the lobe was excessive for the overall wear that was otherwise apparent and suggested the springs may be too stiff.  I've now had those sent to him (by the machine shop as they were still with the cylinder head) and hope to speak further on the matter. 

Btw. the waiting time on the Newman Ph1 camshaft is six weeks, or thereabouts, as they are presently awaiting another consignment of blanks.

JD Robertson, Colchester - the machine shop I'm using, hadn't done anything as of mid last week, as the chap who is to do the work went in for a cataract operation.  Unfortunate timing on my part.

The water pump was sent off to Paul King at E.P Services and is now rebuilt and parceled up to send back to me. He's also changed the pulley for me. Further news about that soon.   "Tune in.. Same time, same channel".

The carburettors were sent to Glen Watson of GW Carbs  for total refurbishment.  They were in a bit of state, not bad but very much needing careful disassembly and cleaning . . .

P1330632s.jpg.6cb75cc2386ce1de07b024c47b9e2447.jpg

Topside doesn't look so terrible but you can see the underside is pretty filthy.  The fuel inlet pipe is bent and both carb's sliders are locked in place. I suspect these are tarred up with stale fuel residue.  Why might I suspect that ?  well ..

P1330614s.jpg.1b0b637e58c742b6eba786d231649bbe.jpg

^ literally the consistency of treacle. But I wasn't going to taste it to see if there were any other similarities !

P1330639s.jpg.834ba4ca8da1a272d612c48ae9db8689.jpg

^ judging by the oil distribution it confirms the timing cover was seeping oil and the fan has distributed that to the underside of the forward carb.

Altogether with the manifolds and control rods - these are a pretty big lump to post, but I found a plastic storage crate to packed them in, and used cardboard wrapped over the top to close it off.  A parcel I had received some time ago had blocks of expanded polystyrene as packing. This was recycled to secure the carbs very tightly  All up weight wasn't very much and MyHermes couriers delivered them safely.  I think their insurance cost as much as the courier service.  

. . .

I've also been going through parts lift sent to me by Bob Smith ..there are numerous other little bits in need ..like a replacement rocker shaft, manifold studs, head stud washers and all those sorts of things.  It was a surprising time consuming task, checking and cross checking numbers required and part numbers, but hopefully Bob has most of what I need for the engine's reassembly.  

While in the 'admin' mode I've also pulled together a spreadsheet of where my money has been going.. It adds up to quite a bill.!   I'll present that as this engine rebuild nears completion. 

P1330665s.jpg.6fe7a779bcdaed753cb7ddae392ff589.jpg

^ I didn't need to measure the wear on the rocker arm bushes to see if they might needed replacing.!   Funny wear pattern though.  These and indentation (..more than wear) of the contact pad (where contacted by the valve stem) again implies too stiff valve spring or perhaps as likely the spring coil-binding (the spring be fully squeezed down and yet still being loaded by the lift of the camshaft lobes) ..as discussed by Peter W  in his recent post (above)

. . .

Aside from that I've done a bit more cleaning up and repainting  . .

P1330664s.jpg.9339361468e5f4270def1bbbd11abbf5.jpg

^ I cleaned up the cam chain / timing cover and went around straightening where the localised fastenings bent / dished the metal around the bolt holes. Here you can see I'm using a craft knife blade as a short straight edge to see if the cover is locally flat.  Non were (..the blade rocked on the indentation).  The metal on these covers is surprisingly thick though, compared to the motorcycle ones I'm used to. Those are possibly half as thick as this. ..now they really get bent !

P1330668as.jpg.d6fdea10575ab9d715c3b2f296649d4d.jpg

^ The flange around the sump was nice and straight, as if it had been even torqued down in the factory and never since has been off.  Perhaps it hadn't ..after all most owners wouldn't drop the sump to change the oil, and the prior owner of this engine doesn't even seem to have changed the oil.!

P1330672as.jpg.714c99f73573cf8adead9968b6aa317b.jpg

There were a few minor dings in the metal, just as likely to have happened when this engine was taken out and put aside by the gent I bought it off.  I knocked those out as best I might (there's limited access to get inside because of the baffle plate). But otherwise it was a matter of thoroughly degreasing the outside and using various wire brush / abrasive wheel attachments to clean off all the paint and as much of the rust as I could.

P1330676s.jpg.edcb81ddc98fd575e723c19e5af2a433.jpg

Again I'm using POR-15 as the protective coating (outsides only).  

All in all I'm pleased with how well they've straightened and cleaned up.  

Earlier today I was trying to buy 5/16" oval washers, which are used on MG timing cases, but so far I've not found them at a sensible price. Hey ho., I can always cut some penny washers down (which is what I use on my Sunbeam engines). 

So that's about it for now as a progress update. Hopefully soon I'll be sharing photos of parts as they come back from the machine shop &/or specialists.

Have a good evening,

Pete.

 

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Thank Hamish,

I looked at those but unfortunately they are for 1/4" fastenings. Likewise old Citroens used them ..but again only with 6mm holes.  The MGA used them, with 5/16" ones for their timing cover  (..item 31 on this illustration ) ie. Washer - Oval 5/16 Inch - Product Code: 2K7440.  So possibly the MGB used them too (Brown and Gammon only have five of the small ones with 5/16" holes in stock).  There's  are also 2" long ones for fastening their wings. 

I've contacted another company  and am awaiting a reply.  My local fastening place (Suffolk Fastenings) can't get them.

Pete

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Thanks Gents, 

Leacy had just 3 in stock, and have only sold a dribble now and then in the past five years so will probably not be getting new stock in. 

I did however find them from the MG owners club < item 82  here > which I'm not a member of, but they let me buy what I wanted @ club member's price of £0.55p each including VAT.  Very decent of them I thought. 

     . . .   I didn't happen to say I wanted them for a TRiumph   :rolleyes:

:D

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.

..delivery today from Paul King of EP Services, Wolverhampton who recondition the water pumps.

It used to look like this . .

P1330554s.jpg.aa2bbca99815588c7dcda8cb46546d37.jpg

       and now looks like this  (Below, bottom Left). . .

P1330677s.jpg.fe2522afb65a6f7ada647e3fee1e58d8.jpg

..aside from recondition everything inside the pump, EP very kindly swapped out the pulley for a narrow v-belt one.  It's apparently off a Jaguar XJS, which had been a double pulley until their local machine shop turned it down.

Unexpectedly Paul also found an aluminium narrow v-belt pulley blank (no holes in it) with the right offset for me, and it passed over to his friendly machine shop to be modified to fit the TR4 crankshaft.  Needless to say Paul has been very generous in his time and trouble on my behalf, but he says he enjoyed the challenge.!  

I have yet to source an alternator for this engine but I guess I can find one also with a narrow-v-belt pulley on it. Adjusting it offset might be fun but hey ho.. I'm all up for a bit of joviality.!     

P1330678s.jpg.2e2b6c2e77a43757d10d6ab378ddf224.jpg

I don't have the engine parts, so I can't check the alignment of each pulley, but that on the water pump has some room for adjustment and the alternator brackets will have to be made anyway, so I recon things ought to work out at the end of the day. 

The cost ?   ..well let's just say it was a substantial saving over 'the usual suspects' prices for a narrow belt conversion.  That said, I'm sure the Triumph suppliers would be more convenient to buy as a complete package.  If it wasn't for Paul's helping me - it probably wouldn't have happened. 

Give me a month or two to get the engine bits back together and to reassemble it then I'll tell you how well it all worked out.

Next, I need to find someone with a lathe ..to make a replacement of the fan extension piece for me,  in some material lighter than forged steel !

Pete 

.

Edited by Bfg
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I  turned up a punch and die from 3/4" diameter bar to dimple the distorted flange/screw holes in the sump and timing cover.  The mating faces of the punch and die are is slightly curved (mushroom/hollow) so the hole flange is pushed out toward the screw head once struck.

Worked fine and are flat  when checked on a granite block.

Cheers

Peter W

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14 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

I  turned up a punch and die from 3/4" diameter bar to dimple the distorted flange/screw holes in the sump and timing cover.  The mating faces of the punch and die are is slightly curved (mushroom/hollow) so the hole flange is pushed out toward the screw head once struck.

Worked fine and are flat  when checked on a granite block.

Cheers

Peter W

Very good tip Peter, much easier the a ballpeen hammer.
The sump/timing chain cover to me looks like all the raised surfaces around the bolt holes have been crushed through over tightening.

Iain

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2 hours ago, iain said:

The sump/timing chain cover to me looks like all the raised surfaces around the bolt holes have been crushed through over tightening.

Which are you referring to Iain, my engine's pressing or your own ?

 

. . . this afternoon, out in the garage was flipping cold ..but I did a little more dismantling and cleaning.. Today I turned my attentions to the thermostat's housing.  .

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^ as it came off.  Btw the aluminium washer under the temp sender was doing absolutely nothing, as the inside end of this unit seats in a cup (like an plumbing olive) and so that washer was loose. 

P1330687s.jpg.c4c3ab7ec8d784ba1eac21de25f9bc1d.jpg

^ the temperature sender was a right sod to get out.  Penetrating oil and the right-size spanner (courtesy of Austin of England) didn't work, nor did applying heat to the surrounding case.  Even clamping the hex head in the vice and using extension bars didn't want to play magic roundabout.  The more effort I applied the more the brass hex-head slipped.  In the end the darn thing crushed. After that I'd was resigning myself to the likelihood of it shearing off completely and I'd have to drill it out or find a replacement housing ..But it finally shifted. It felt like it had sheared but nope it broke its lock ..even then it did not give in to the struggle.   Determined little "wotsit" !

P1330689s.jpg.fad8052e694f61637ece9c1059c4be51.jpg

^ reckon that needs replacing !

Thereafter it was just a matter of dismantling and cleaning up each component.

P1330691s.jpg.431eff8c4eee2aad63fd4d486fe58df4.jpg

^ One odd bolt ?  anyway I cleaned up the gasket faces on a flat of emery paper too.

I liked how the bronze-age Waxstat came apart for cleaning.  It's possibly shot but I don't know the critical parts of how it works (again m' motorcycles don't have such sophistication !) so I'll simply push it back together again and drop it in a mug of hot water to see if it does anything.  I assume, when heated the wax expands inside the capsule and the consequential movement along the central pin opens the coolant's waterway.  I'm just not sure if the (presumably rubber) seals on this are any good. 

Mind you, looking in the Moss catalogue, they're only  £4  ..so I'll get a replacement anyway (if only as a spare). 

This one was rated at 82-degrees c. which (according to Moss) is for 'standard' climate.  So, unless y'all advise otherwise I'll get the same. 

And that's all the practical work I got done today ..huh ! <_<

Pete.    

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Yours Pete.
Each bolt hole on the sump and timing chain cover should have a raised edge, like they have been pressed out as described by Peter. These collapse with over exuberant tightening and need to be recreated to ensure an oil tight seal at the correct torque.

Where  you have your Stanley blade on the timing chain cover looks flat in the picture.......the margin of the hole should be below the level of the blade edge. This is true of all the sump bolt holes also. ( if the blade in on the mating surface)
 

Iain

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^ Thanks, so the hole indentation should be pushed outwards, away from the engine block ?  or as described by Peter as "pushed out toward the screw head".

Yes mine had been over tightened and were pulled into the gasket.

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  • 4 weeks later...

.

Not much to write home about, despite it being best part of a month since I last posted here. 

But I did receive a parcel of very useful bits this week from a most amicable private seller / club member . . .

 P1330860s.jpg.0925e2cfe2fa0efaa929b9dea01b48ab.jpg

:huh: Parcel Force delivered.  It seems they used the tape as a handle for carrying the box.

P1330861s.jpg.eab315856ee2bbcc41def242667ebf9a.jpg

* Fortunately the parts inside were over-wrapped with packing materials and otherwise carefully packed with all the small bits and packages inside larger packets ..so was nothing lost nor damaged. :)

P1330863s.jpg.21de8d2cb030c232deeb1d675d0f369c.jpg

^ Contents were engine parts and ancillaries for this engine and some extras (for the engine I still hope to get with the car).

Including : (top) standard 4A twin-exhaust down-pipes, in mild steel - used but in good shape.  Left : Distributor for the 4A which had been rebuilt by the Distributor Doctor but never fitted. 

The other distributor (lower left)  "originally a 25D Distributor is also thought to be for a 4A, This unit came from Lucas as a special but is to 4A spec – The major difference between 25D & 45D is that the latter does not have vernier control of the advance/retard ignition timing, so is more difficult to set the timing accurately.  In as-new condition having done only a couple of thousand miles"  Well., from my perspective, the distributor on my Sunbeam motorcycles don't have a fine adjuster either, nor did I have the fine adjustment on my last classic ..a Citroen with a GS boxer engine ..and I was very happy with those for normal road use.  So I'll try this and see how I get on with it.  It shouldn't be impossible as I'll otherwise have the reconditioned one from D-D to set everything else up.

Aside from that, I bought NOS brushes for the starter motor. NOS repair kit for the fuel pump. A thermostat. Set of NOS Lodge spark plugs (free).  A set of NOS  Vandervell little-end bushes.  x10 NOS Unipart rocker shaft bushes (I know x16 are required but this is all the seller had). Then there's the rocker shaft, complete with rockers. It has light surface rust on it but the valve pads are as-new,  so if used it certainly hasn't done many miles (..those from my engine are 'impacted' as if valves had been coil-bound).  Bottom row : felt washer for the dipstick, an assortment of studs I need for the manifold and also a set of new brass nuts.  A rocker cover stud (I need two but this is the only one the seller had). A cylinder head stud, a set of new cylinder stud washers and four nuts. A couple of heavy duty disc washers for the engine mounts, and a NOS camshaft front bearing.  

I'm very pleased with these parts. Thank you kind Sir ..you know who you are B)

Next I need to shop for are a high quality timing chain and (very likely) a set of valve springs.  I also need to by an alternator.

 

All in all the cost of getting a good set of ancillaries is costing a fair percentage of the cost of the engine rebuild itself, which is something many of us don't really budget for when we think of "what is the cost to rebuild an engine ?".   But without the ancillaries also being in good to excellent condition - the car will not run well nor be reliable ..however nice the engine's bearings, valves, pistons and camshaft are. To give an indication of the costs ..

  • the (bare) engine machine work and parts would seem to working out about £1800.  
  • And to restore the ancillaries . .                                                                to date about  £1200.

These figure exclude the costs of my actually buying this  'spare' engine and its complete package of ancillaries. 

Aside from the usuals like new pistons & liners, the conversion to unleaded valve seats, and the crankshaft's balancing..,  the value of these engine parts include using quality NOS items such as Vandervell main bearings and Glyco big end shells, plus all NOS valves and guides, plus the crankshaft's rear oil seal conversion, a new Newman Ph1 camshaft & its followers. 

Ancillaries include the carburettors, distributor, and the water pump each being professionally restored.  It also includes lightening the flywheel and a new clutch, plus the lightened fan pulleys.

So when all done and dusted - their condition shouldn't be too shabby.    

I'm still waiting upon the machine shop, but I'm not pushing them because I still have to wait for the camshaft (whose blanks are on back order). Accordingly this engine rebuild is on a back burner while I get on with my vintage motorcycle engines  < here > .

Regarding 'Chance'  ..the TR4A I'm still hoping to buy from the US.. Well again, I've not heard from the seller for the past few weeks. I dropped him a line on Friday but haven't heard back yet.  Time will tell if he can get things together to prepare the car ready for collection ..at the end of this month !   No money has exchanged hands so I've no reason to suspect anything sinister, it's just his ducks seem to keep wandering off rather than getting all together neatly in a row.   I'll let you know when I hear anything.

So that's it ..a page of no news, but always hopeful for good things to come.

Best regards, Pete

 

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Strange looking 'picnic set' Pete B)

Those pink Lodge spark-plugs can sell for surprising amounts on e-bay. The pre-war car owners seem to like them.

Edited by RobH
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Pete do be aware that the curve on the DD recon dizzy may not be compatible with your choice of cam, have a word with Martin and he will be able to tell you.

Stuart.

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^   

I'm planning on using a Newman Ph1 camshaft and had previously spoken to Martin and he suggested the standard 4a distributor advance curve would be fine, but no harm in quickly calling him to make sure I haven't got my wires crossed.  Thanks  :)

. .

Update from America.. this morning a reply from seller's wife included the following . . .

" Ray is almost finished with the new engine installation of our sons 91 Firebird, and then we will get "Chance" ready for his long trip to you. We are still planning on having it  ready by the end of March assuming nothing unexpected happens to slow us down."   . . ." As we get back to work on "Chance", I will try to keep you updated on our progress. I am sure Raymond will be getting in contact with you about the specifics of the shipping requirements.

Not much I might add to that,  but that I'm pleased  :)

Pete.

 

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