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Thanks Stuart and Peter, 

I'd really like to retain the glass backlight but we'll have to see how it goes.  I see no manufacturer's markings, like Triplex or whatever, so I might only guess it an after market one.  Top to bottom dimension of the glass at centreline is 17-3/32" (434mm). 

I'm back to start again, with the glass loose top and bottom in its frame after several failed attempts sit it on the car. In the first instance, I wanted to go to a classic car auto-jumble and show tomorrow, and so didn't want to take the hood off.  I just wanted to tilt the hood frame forward to fit and measure the backlight to windscreen dimension.  That in turn would indicate how much I could squeeze the fibreglass frame to tighten the glass by 1/4".  

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^ I hoped the backlight would fit around it once the rear deck trim, with its lift-a-dots and webbing straps on it, was removed. But then, quite typically - two of the rivet nuts turned and had nuts under those so I could get a socket in from the underside. Bottom line being that the rear trim had to come out too.

While at it I felt around for a petrol-tank-breather, as there's often the smell of the fuel around the back of the car and in the boot. I couldn't find one, just a vented cap.

The backlight did partly fit over the hood frame (this being the frame off a TR6 with its side rubbers) but the backlight wouldn't go down to sit on the deck ..so off with the hood frame.

Even with that out of the way, the backlight wouldn't go down. It was if the studs fibreglassed to the underside of the frame were 1/2" too short.  I giggled and poked, pushed and thumped, but alas no, the darn thing was not going to play nicely.  Certainly it seems that the surrey top and soft-top hoods are not just a five or ten minute job to swap. 

Indeed, by the time I realised what was going wrong - I'd been at this for two hours.  I must be on the wrong diet because my brain has been quite sluggish ..these past twenty plus years.  

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^ comparing the bonded on stud with the screw that held the hood's rear trim plate on and they're the same size, indeed the same 1/4" UNF thread.   Because two of those trim retaining screws went all the way through the (stripped out) rivet-nuts - it simply hadn't occurred to me that the rest wouldn't. :huh:  Duhh !   

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^The rivet-nuts looked like this, and it turns out they are made in aluminium.   ^^ And they now look like this !   That should give enough room for the backlight's studs to drop through.  First though.. to paint the metal, and while that is drying, to have a late lunch and to refit again the, now pulled out again, glass back into its frame. 

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^ Btw, I held the rim of the riv-nut with the needle nose vice-grips and then using a countersink drill-bit I cut into that aluminium rim until it came broke loose.

Talking of backs, yes it's aching from lifting while reaching over the car.  It's a pain getting old. !

Hopefully a little more later.

Pete

 

 

   

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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Looks like your car may have had a Surrey on it before then as those rivnuts arent original, they were originally a spot welded nut fitted from underneath. You will also need to fit two studs at the top of the "B" post in the captive nuts that should be there under the small finisher.

Stuart.

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Thanks Stuart.  I didn't know Katie had had a Surrey top or hardtop before,  However there having been painted over with the pink primer suggests they've been there since before her restoration 22 years ago, and I have no history of the car before that. 

Retry fitting the backlight . . .

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After fitting the glass back into the frame along its bottom edge, using a telescopic awning pole to hold the front corners apart, and a bit of wiggling (the frame not me !) things looked promising.  

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^ masking tape held the body seal in place as I shuffled things around to get it to sit down, and while I fitted washers and nuts onto the studs, under the deck.  The two studs half way along the sides missed the metal at the side, so I cut some aluminium angle to use as clamps. That worked well on one side but the other side's stud is too short ..at least until things settle. 

I then worked the top of the glass into the seal, again by finger power and I finally got it to just lipped in all the way across. The tape on the glass below that top seal is half inch away from the glass edge, so I really would like a little higher. or indeed the backlight frame a little further back.  To that end I thought I'd fit the fabric Surrey-top's spidery frame. . .

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^ Its beginning to look like a roof !   ..but there's a few details I yet need to investigate (research) how it should / might work.  A bit of rubber fuel hose in the hole is temporary, just to judge the metal frame's length.   The rear legs to this spidery frame have what look to be new threads welded into the end of the tubes. Horridly coarse threads and hacksaw cut ends which yet needed to be chamfered, and I suspect their length is now too short.   The threads match the brass screw adjusters Roger very kindly let me have, so they are correct ..just horrid to push over a rubber seal and into fibreglass holes in the backlight.

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The fabric Surrey top is presumable from a TR4 as it intends for its front edge battens to be pushed back under the windscreen's cap rail. However Katie had a Tr6 hood and windscreen cap rail.  The question I'm now faced with is whether to change the cap rail or the fabric Surrey top. ?    If anyone has a spare TR4 cap rail, or a TR6 adapted fabric Surrey top then I'd be most interested - thanks, even if it / they are only in such condition as to only make do.  ie., allow me weather protection until I get something better sorted. 

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^ Passenger side door glass fitted against the door / weather seal on the backlight very well.  Not so on the driver's side. The glass sticks out by half an inch or so.  I'll have to investigate that ..as I'm keen to block other vehicle's tyre noise from coming in so readily.  

Regarding the glass in the backlight, well it's in ..and to be honest I think if water sealant (perhaps clear silicon ?) is applied then it'll probably work without dropping out. There's only a couple mm overlap of the seal onto the glass in the middle, but there's double that in the top outside corners, and then the glass is tight into the bottom corner, along the sides and and all around the back. The chromed plastic wedge strip is now fitted but it's not sitting nicely. Perhaps a new one might be a better fit and actually do something to better secure the glass.  The plan is to work the glass when everything is hot from the sun, to see how things settle further (..sun tomorrow please), and to rework the fabric's spidery frame to be a tight fit, which will push the grp frame backwards. 

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^ I wonder if.. the top seal has been bonded on all the way across the top and most of the way down the B-post sides. But if that was hard pushed right the way forward when it was gooed, then to release it may enable the glazing seal to come back two or three mm. ?  

 

All things considered though - I'm really very pleased that the glass went in (..again) and the backlight is now fitted onto the car, albeit loosely.  That is A BIGGIE  for me ..in terms of the TR I sought to own and drive.  tick.png.96ea56bf78b50bebf71269eeaaf1c063.png

 Step by step, we're getting there (..i think ? ) 

Pete

 

p.s.  yes the backlight is painted primrose yellow. Hey what can I say but that ..I'm adding flower power  !

:D

 

Edited by Bfg
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4 hours ago, stuart said:

You will also need to fit two studs at the top of the "B" post in the captive nuts that should be there under the small finisher.

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^ you mean the patented invisible ones as unseen in these holes.?

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13 hours ago, Bfg said:

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^ you mean the patented invisible ones as unseen in these holes.?

Yes, you would need to fit a rivnut in there if there isnt an original nut spot welded underneath as per original, Its  1/4" UNF/1/4"UNF stud but dont make it too long or due to the curve of the Surrey upright you wont get the large washer (to spread the load) and nut on it.This is hidden behind the little headling covered card that sits up the inside, its lipped under the glass rubber at the rear and has a waste edge at the front that is wrapped round the weatherstrip lip before you fit the rubber.

Stuart.

Stuart.

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Thanks Stuart,  yep I understand.

I tried fitting a long coach-head bolt up through the hole from below and dropped it inside the B-post. I didn't realise that it was open below this (nor that it went so far down !) 

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 ..so I had to go fishing inside that box section with a magnet on the end of rubber tube. 

I decided not to try that again !

Such frivolity on a Sunday would surely be frowned upon by the vicar ?

Pete

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How many 1/4” unf clinch nuts are required Pete?   I think I have a few lurking in the Avdel drawer.

Will touch them and let you know what I have.

 

The rubber ferrules for the tips of the Surrey frame that go in the screen capping are the same as the rubber thing on the spike that pokes out the back of a MGF radio, to stabilise it when installed.  I have no idea of it’s part number but may have a couple somewhere from my MGF days.  Again will go looking for you.

Update.

not too successful 

I have a few original aluminium rivnut with 1/4 unf thread but no tool to clinch them.

I have a few 1/4” unf  ‘bear nuts’ which are self setting but need a 1/2” hole to sit in as against the original which used a 11/32” hole.

Beyond that consider going to 6 mm sheet metal fasteneners they are readily available with a setting tool.  You would need an appropriate metric stud.

 

How about 6 mm Rawlnuts?   They could be removed after use and perhaps not knacker the paint.

https://www.fixingscenter.co.uk/p/6350-6mm-ankernut-rawlnut-lnn06035

Cannot find the rubber ferrules.   What about modifying a tyre valve?

 

Cheers

Peter W

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Thanks Peter but it'll much simpler for me to use a flat-plated screw down from a hood frame's captive on the inside to the backlight. This will help by giving some adjustment in the backlight's position ..which is one of the issues I've discovered . . .

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^ the passenger side door glass is a very good fit against the backlight's door seal, whereas the driver's side leaves something to be desired. Just part of this is that the backlight is further back on the driver's side. This is evident insomuch as the amount of rear deck showing at the B-post, forward of the bottom front corner of the backlight, is 1/16" on the passengers side and 5/16" on the drivers.  And with bonded-in studs under the fibreglass frame there's no adjustment. The same would apply with captive nuts.

Upon investigation (top off again) I found . . .

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^ ..the car's rear deck bolt holes are not symmetrical. 16-5/8" on the passenger side and 16-15/16" on the drivers side.  The restoration / repairs to this rear deck must have been done by eye rather than with a measure.  Most likely the restorer didn't appreciate these to be critical dimensions.  But that 5/16" difference possibly also accounts for the soft-top's hood & frame being noticeably tighter on this side.  Well.., I cannot redrill the hole through that rear deck flange 5/16" further forward ..as that is in inside the car.  

So that's what I've done !

I elongated forward the next hole in, as much as I could (still allowing for a nut & plain washer to just about fit under the rear deck), and I pulled the backlight forward on this side, so that corner stud is now inside the car. I had hoped to get a bracket and nut on that, the same as I've done on each side, but the stud isn't long enough (and I don't want to cut the down-turned flange shorter).

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^ with the driver's side of the backlight pushed forward, whereby that stud is hard against the inside the flange, the front corner now sits 1/8" too far forward. Still this is a better situation for the door glass (which seals up the A-post).  However the angles are clearly out too.   To correct the side angle the front corner of the backlight would have to lift by 3/4" ..which simply isn't practical.  And even if I did that.. the door glass is still leaning out too far.  

An interesting conundrum ..together with a whole lot of admiration for the professional restorer who has the foresight to get this sort of detail right.. even as they weld together a rusty body tub.

Pete

 

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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You can adjust the angle of the glass by judicious use of shims/washers on the window slides that would bring the glass in more.Also FWIW that hook is wrong as well, it should be a flat plate with a curl to hook onto.Item 5 here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/weather-equipment/hard-tops/surrey-top-fittings-tr4-4a-1961-67.html looks as if like it is it will foul the glass if you get it in far enough.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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^  That would require the back end of the door glass to twist, as it presently sits well against the A-post.  I'm not sure how much of a compromise can be achieved . . .

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Youd be surprised how much they will move. The holes in the rear of the door frame for the top bolts for the slides do allow a bit of movement, I also dont fit those tube type door rubbers as they can make it difficult to get doors to shut nicely. I use this flap type  one from Woolies trim which allows for better shut lines etc https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/p-1285-door-seal

Stuart.

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Also there was originally another seal in a channel up each side of the Surrey which might help you. Items 2 and 4 on here https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/weather-equipment/hard-tops/surrey-top-fittings-tr4-4a-1961-67.html

See below pictures of mine.

Stuart.

 

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Thanks I'll give door glass adjustment a try. 

Yes, good idea.. those lip seals would inevitably be more accommodating. I'll order some.  I note their offset / protrusion is a little less (7/16" / 11mm versus 19/32" / 15mm) but with those I ought to be able to take the top corner of the glass into the A-post further. Presently the top end of the bulb seal is filled with goo that is less flexible, and that prevent the top corner of the glass going in further.  They will also be kinder to the door lower down, making shutting the door less of a slam n' rattle.  Cheers.  

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That second seal certainly smooths the step out for 1 mph better aerodynamics around the backlight. B)   I'm not sure it will help with the glass seal when things are not nearly as in-line as on your own car, but I'll keep it in mind.  Changing things one step at a time gives me a better chance of getting the foundations straight. 

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Prompted by your suggestion to use a lip seal ..and my bulb seal having a blob of goo in it .. I've just dug that out and refitted the door seal ..and yes the top corner of the glass does now go in a further 1/4". That in turn means the back of the top corner of the door glass is now also sitting closer . . .

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^ I've removed the fabric Surrey-top's side-tensioning hook, for the time being, as I feared the glass striking it and breaking.  And I've pulled the bottom corner of the backlight out as far as it can go (with its bottom edge seal now hard against the chrome rear-wing beading).  Now the backlight's door seal is in contact with the bottom rear edge of the door glass for 2-1/2" and the top rear edge corner of the glass is 5/16" - 3/8" away ..tantalisingly close to hope it's within range of door runner bracket adjustment.

All very positive progress.  Cheers Stuart, your advice and prompting has been a great help in moving this forward ..in (you know what I mean :) )

Pete   

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On 5/29/2022 at 5:19 PM, Bfg said:

Now the backlight's door seal is in contact with the bottom rear edge of the door glass for 2-1/2" and the top rear edge corner of the glass is 5/16" - 3/8" away ..tantalisingly close to hope it's within range of door runner bracket adjustment.

I spent quite some time yesterday, adjusting the drivers door glass (packers under the runners, and even pulling the rear runner out to very slightly bend it in at the top) to achieve a better fit. The tapered gap between the rear edge of the door glass and backlight's seal became closely aligned, albeit only just touching for most of its length and indeed instead of it being 5/16" - 3/8" away at the top back corner, I got it down to 1/16" gap.   Great progress and possibly just enough, if the A-post door seals are now changed for the more easily compressed lip-type seals.  

 

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^ these are the brackets I made to hold the front corner of the backlight down.  As the single bottom (formerly hood-frame) bolt allows the the bracket to tilt, then fore and aft adjustment is achieved.  They work well. 

However..,  when used, and the front bottom corners of the backlight is pulled down - I lost the glass to seal contact "only just touching for most of its length'  ..now it's only just not touching :( 

..but at least it being close to parallel (gap) - it ought not be too drafty. Replacing the A-post door-seal to a lip type ought to help just a tad, but I suspect when driving the airflow around the sides / suction on the glass will pull it out.  Hey ho.., it is massively better than from whence we came ..and also better than the rag-top hood.

Ups and downs of Classic cars, along with the ups and downs of being a freak. . .

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^ Big head ! 

With my having the seat so far back, the lower height and different high-point shape (compared to the the soft-top hood-frame) of the backlight and its Surrey-top frame, means my head pokes out.  It may be only slightly but the position of this tubular metal frame is just there against the side of my head ..and that's with the surrey top frame adjusted high.  for reference, the straight edge batten is 1-1/4" (32mm) high, and as you can see the apex of the tubular from is close to double that.  

I've only driven a Surrey-top TR4 once before, and that was Mikes (TR East Saxon's group) excellent 4A,  also with Mx-5 seats, but that evening he didn't have the top on ..so no tubular frame.  And with his car's seat travel restricted and very much further forward, even the backlight in the back of my scalp wasn't a known issue. 

This is a great disappointment. 

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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You do really need to fit a stud into the top of the forward deck extension so the sides are out far enough to get rid of the window gap Im afraid, a simple rivnut will do the job to hold the stud.

Your height clearance is a problem I encountered when fitting the Surrey to mine as Im 6`4" but I have very low fitting MX seats and a dished steering wheel so I can sit low enough for it to not be a problem even with the hard roof on.

Stuart.

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Thanks Stuart, yes I can see how your car's backlight runs neatly and generally parallel to the chrome wing beading, but the bottom seal on mine looks to be smaller in section than your own, so as best I might judge from photos, its front corner of fibreglass to be out further on Katie than on your own ? . . .

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However I suspect the issue may be with the fibreglass moulding . . .

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^ Driver's side, comparing the angle (tumble-home) of the backlight's seal versus the windscreen.  And the same comparison on the passenger side where the back edge of the door glass sits well on its seal.  These photos correspond to how the front edge of each door glass fits up the A-post, with the passengers being almost parallel but the driver's now needing to be tilted all the way in at the top.   I fear that despite best efforts.. I may be fighting a loosing battle where the moulding itself is not symmetrical.  Seeing this I reckon I've done pretty well to get the driver's door glass anywhere near.

Pete

 

 

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Can you take a picture of each side from the rear of the car looking forward with the rear light being in the centre of the picture as I think its possible the top of the drivers "B" post is further out than the near side. I have come across the problem before, most notably on a 5 that I had to do some brutal pushing and shoving on to get it square (On that one it was the near side that was out and the drivers was in:wacko:)

Stuart.

 

jeffs tr5 001.jpg

jeffs tr5 002.jpg

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The car is in the polytunnel at the moment, so no room to stand back for photos, but I think you are right and the top corner of the OS  B-post is perhaps 1/2" too far out  ..not that you'd know it by the shoulder room mind you ! (43" inside dimension between the top corner of B-post trim pads.). 

It comes as no surprise, what with sill replacements and possibly accidents over the past 55 years, but correcting that will have to be a task for another day. It'll be a lot of work for the sake of closing the door-glass to backlight's seal tighter.   

Pete

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June 5th (Sun)    Norfolk - Sandringham PE35 6EN - Sandringham Pageant of Motoring as part of the Queen's Jubilee celebration  - £10 for car & 1 person -

< https://www.tr-register.co.uk/event/2022/06/2712/Sandringham-Pageant-of-Motoring >

I've booked and I've paid ..and am determined to go despite the forecast of 40% change of precipitation.   Problem with these forecasts is that I don't know if it'll be rain, a heavy downpour for just five minutes or light drizzle for an hour.   Hey ho., stiff upper lip - we're British  ..and driving British !  

I'm tagging along / meeting up with a contingent from Northants, and otherwise hope to see some of you there  ?

Pete

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Update..

I went out in Katie yesterday, just locally around town.. going to Machine-Mart, to the grocery store, to a windscreen place, and to a couple of tyre centres (as the front right has a slow puncture or leaky valve), I came back along the A14, just between two junctions, at 70mph and all was fine.    

This is the first time I've driven the car with the backlight on, and the back window glass didn't fall out !   I'm still worried about it but am a little happier after I'd left the car with the old tin roof in place for it to get hot in the sun. The door glass windows were up - which meant the car's interior and rear window, together with that rubber seal also got pretty warm. and then with the rubber seal being a little more supple I'd thumped and pushed the back glass down to seat it as best I might.  Although the streets around Ipswich town centre and its 19th century suburbia are not exactly silky smooth, and these little Triumph sports are a firm ride, the shaking and twisting didn't pop the glass out.  That was reassuring.!

Any sports car is very low to get in & out of ..for an old gaffer, and particularly so for someone of my big n' tall stature with an iffy back, but I was really very pleased to be able to use the car 'conveniently' around town.  Of course, with Katie  not having the hood up, nor a Surrey top in place.. there was no headroom restriction (ducking into a door frame opening) when getting in n' out.  Shoulder space (for me with the seat so far back) without the folding hood frame was of course 2+" more.  It's still a very narrow car for me, but then that's just part n' parcel with most British sports cars.  

My monk's bald patch on top corresponds with the furflex seal to protects one's scalp from an edge. But even with my almost rear-seat driving position.. although I knew the backlight was there ..just an inch or so behind my head, it was not a problem.  

Very important to me.. ambient mechanical, town noise, and tyre / road noise from other vehicles, I was very happy with.  Driving around with the side windows up and with a wrap-around rear window was now perfectly acceptable in town, and likewise along the dual-carriageway alongside lorries and modern large-tyred cars, even after a downpour when the roads were very wet. So although tyre / road spray noise was apparent, it was not at all intrusive.  

Wind in the hair was pleasant and not so 'scrubbing', while wind around the back of the neck and equally to my lumber regions was significantly better than when I was driving around with the soft top down.  Side and rear three-quarter visibility with the backlight in place is excellent, as there's just the slim B-posts ..which were pretty much subliminal.

All in all then I'm really pleased with driving the TR with its backlight in place.  It is imho as worthwhile as the overdrive on the gearbox is.  The car is very usable and still fun without either, but one &/or both make these cars all the more convenient and comfortable to use.  It's definitely a keeper ! tick.png.b536927bc1e10db7a117283c12b6e9a2.png

Pete   

p.s. to be expected.. even light rain, without a Surrey top in place does come in ..at town speeds  And despite its low angle.. the rain droplets get onto inside the rear glass.    

 

 

Edited by Bfg
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Sounds like it's all come to plan for you, well mostly. You'd have thought the rear glass would slip out with the air flow at 70mph, so whatever you managed to do sounds like it's worked. 

Looking forward to your pictures from the Sandringham pageant of motoring. 

Gareth

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FWIW I would still be inclined to bond that rear screen in.

Stuart.

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21 minutes ago, stuart said:

FWIW I would still be inclined to bond that rear screen in.

Stuart.

i agree. for both water sealing and peace of mind when I get used to things and start driving a lot harder.   Might I ask, what do you use Stuart.?

nb. I'd prefer not to use silicon because of plans to spray paint.

Pete

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