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B) celebrations, I've now been Katie's custodian for 3 weeks...     where's the Brandy !

And yes I know.. the way I've been posting on here it must seem like three years !    You might thank goodness that I bought a roadworthy car rather than a project  :D:D

 

 

On 3/28/2021 at 5:54 PM, stillp said:

If you do take the rad out Pete, give the crankshaft dog bolt a tweak to make sure it's tight. Your fan belt looks to me as if it's been running too loose for too long, so it's bottoming in the pulley.

That extension does look rather low though, how are your engine mounts?

Pete

I've had a look this afternoon and the fan extension is tight to the feel (I grabbed and yanked at it ..in layman's terms).

The steering rack itself isn't worn and the hollowed reshaping of the fan extension isn't accurately aligned with the rack either. I'd suggest it was done by hand or perhaps on a lathe  ..which must have been necessary because even now there's only the flat of a screwdriver blade between the fan extension and the rack, so there's not a lot of clearance.  The rack is in red poly-bushes, and these parts are included in a kit of suspension polybushes (poly44) bought from TRGB in August '03.  

The engine mount on the RHS (drivers side) is impossible to see even with my camera poked into places my fat head wouldn't fit, but on the LHS it looks like this . . .

P1380316s.thumb.jpg.3440acc0942e7128dbbfae70314aa272.jpg

^ That front engine mount may be passed its best-sell-by-date but it is in generally the right sort of shape rather than having slumped down.  According to the file they were bought from TRGB in May 2001 (so about 37,000 miles ago)

^^  Note ; the radiator's bottom hose and the water pump's intermediate pipe only have a very short steel-tube connector piece.  A cursory look suggests they are in good shape though, so it's mainly the top radiator hose that is imo iffy  ..that is aside from the heater's pipes . . .

 

P1380304s.thumb.jpg.6ce4e1d40716a2101725da87dd8189c0.jpg

^ The hot water pipe into the heater are both shot, and when touched leak.  I think Bob might have been in for steaming hot foot-bath had these not been addressed.  That scorching hot feet sensation is something I'd personally like to avoid.  I wonder when you last checked those in your own TR  ?  

Now the question is ; rubber or silicon ?  The answer is in < here > somewhere / perhaps ?   And I'd also question whether the the old wire type clips are perhaps better than the lumpy jubilee clips for these smaller pipes.?  Perhaps the Mikalor stainless steel band clamps are worth investing in, if they are available in that smaller size, as they tend to distribute the clamping pressure more evenly. Opinions invited

On the engine side of the bulkhead, the heat pipes are faring better but for the one having been chafed through to the reinforcement by the battery strap. 

    P1380299s.jpg.46731c8d6cf8eb510649591e6648570f.jpg   P1380305s.jpg.24d622cf4f336651c852a0c8e3623a9b.jpg

Surely there is a neater arrangement of these pipes, wires and cables, so they don't rub against the steering column rubber UJ or the throttle linkage.  I invite you to share your own photos of how this corner might be neatest - thanks. 

Yes, both top and bottom rubber doughnut are also perished. Possibly that's just surface cracking, but I can't be sure until I pull them out and give them a good twist. Might I ask, are they susceptible to suddenly breaking up or they fail safe and just become notchy or noisy.? 

 

The steering rack U-bolt clamp revealed a little something I wasn't expecting . . .

P1380297s.jpg.a83bac4c6c3fdc60e37860c55fda5306.jpg

^ the U-bolt securing the steering rack was incomplete. It appeared from the other side of the car to have corroded through for a 3/4" length. That impression being compounded by the splash of rusty radiator water over it.  However when poked with a screwdriver it revealed what felt to be black silicon sealant smeared over it ..and under that was a pretty colour blue bolt head.  That bolt's head had clearly been cut so the fastening might fit tight into the corner, and presumably this 'mod' was then hidden from the MOT man.   As noted above ; the poly-bushes appear to have been bought in '03.  So I guess with a J bolt and this small bolt clamping the bracket down - things are not as dangerous as I first imagined.  

Good news also is that it hadn't just rusted away, which gives me hope for the adjacent chassis structure !

 

P1380301s.jpg.3087b196e0938ba915cd8c9f4bbbdd6c.jpg

^ Sometime I'm going to feel compelled to tackle the wiring, and perhaps even repaint the bulkhead one colour. but that can wait for the moment. I was looking for the voltage stabiliser which I'd been advised might be on the back of the speedo.  ..it wasn't but I found it where the loom comes through the bulkhead. . .

  P1380300s.jpg.68ce79bfd7d58ce10f1ab2652d7106cd.jpg

  The new one I've seen a photo of, on the Rimmer Brothers website, specifically labels one end as Top, whereas this is (relatively speaking) on its side.  Perhaps its orientation makes all all  difference, and would account for the unreliable fuel gauge and just-confusing temperature gauge readings ?  

Thanks for being there gentlemen..  these Triumphs are such an adventure !

Pete.

 

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Pete - DON'T give up with owning a TR - there are other cars out there - just put the word out on here and elsewhere and I'm sure something will come up Chin up  Cheers Rich

Or these people? http://www.leacyclassics.com/parts/classicmini/engine-components/2k7440.html Roger

. Carrying on from TR4 -v- Tr4A engine, and my purchasing a 'spare'  < here >  ..so that I might get on and have an engine ready by the time the Chance is actually bought and shipped,  we h

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Hi Pete

That's not very good practice what somebodies done with the steering rack mount if its any use there's a couple on ebay at the moment for sale, as for the voltage stabilizer when they play up it will give you some incorrect readings on both fuel and temp gauges dont think it matters which way up they are  I change mine for the electronic type . I went for normal rubber heater hoses( and engine hoses )so I cannot comment if silicon ones are or not any better 

Chris   

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Hi Pete ...

"And I'd also question whether the the old wire type clips are perhaps better than the lumpy jubilee clips for these smaller pipes.?  Perhaps the Mikalor stainless steel band clamps are worth investing in, if they are available in that smaller size, as they tend to distribute the clamping pressure more evenly. Opinions invited"

I have just used Mikalor clips on some of my hoses. For the bottom hose to block, via the steel tube, (i.e. 4 required) I used 43-47mm 'part stainless steel' ones at £1.78 each from ebay. In hindsight this was probably a mistake - I measured the hoses outside diameter at about 45mm, but I used all of the movement on the clips to get them tight, and I still got a bit of a leak from the bottom one which I then replaced with a normal stainless jubilee clip I had, which worked better with a much larger diameter range (I prefer the jubilee clips that have the serrations cut all the way through - seem much stronger). Also the Mikalor clips were 20mm wide which looks a bit excessive. I should say that the two I bought for the bypass valve  (43-47mm) worked ok - but the width (20mm) probably a bit over the top.

Ali.

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Good time to flush that heat out if you have some long hose to connect and hang it out of the drives door, on the steering rack I was advised to get this type of rack mounts with the mileage we do, bit pricey but there is no chance the rack will move. It’s good your doing you photos and posts we all need a helping hand at times, I am going to look a my heater hoses tomorrow I think there ok but but not checked for a while. 
 

Mike Redrose Group 

0658673A-D51B-45CE-8FFD-92161C04F457.jpeg

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A couple of comments Pete: first, the fan extension might seem tight when you try to rock it, but does it rotate a couple of degrees on the crankshaft? I don't know how you'd check that except by removing it and looking at the Woodruff key.

That engine mount looks a bit knackered to me.

Lots of people forget the heater when they're changing hoses. I need to change mine again although the existing ones look in good shape.

The doughnuts look OK from here.

I hope you get some good ideas about the pipes/wires/ cables/throttle linkage etc, there are several disasters waiting to happen there. Mine is a little better but the speedo cable rubs on the steering column.

That voltage stabiliser is in the correct place for the 4/4A, and is the right way up. The orientation does make a difference, apparently.

I haven't used silicone hoses, but I know a chap who did, and had problems with them slipping off the radiator.

Great to see you getting stuck in!

Best of luck

Pete

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Hi Pete,

I use the simple wire clips for this heater hoses, the are good enough.

If you ever need a heavy duty clip I can recommend Pa-Ri clips from Germany (not for that small diameters).

A bit difficult to find and not cheap at all - but this producers knows what he does.

IMG_6723.thumb.JPG.c8daf69793a9ba13a685334228947146.JPG

The steel band is not welded outside on the clip but inside, the one on the photo is stainless steel

Ciao, Marco

 

 

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12 hours ago, BRENDA1 said:

Good time to flush that heat out if you have some long hose to connect and hang it out of the drives door, on the steering rack I was advised to get this type of rack mounts with the mileage we do, bit pricey but there is no chance the rack will move. It’s good your doing you photos and posts we all need a helping hand at times, I am going to look a my heater hoses tomorrow I think there ok but but not checked for a while. 
 

Mike Redrose Group 

0658673A-D51B-45CE-8FFD-92161C04F457.jpeg

If you go for these type of clamp be aware that you may have to file the mating faces a bit to get them to clamp the rack tightly as the 'hole' is about the same diameter as the racks.

Its what I have on my TR6 and they have been in place for 20 years fit and forget once modified 

George

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13 hours ago, Ali King said:

Hi Pete ...

"And I'd also question whether the the old wire type clips are perhaps better than the lumpy jubilee clips for these smaller pipes.?  Perhaps the Mikalor stainless steel band clamps are worth investing in, if they are available in that smaller size, as they tend to distribute the clamping pressure more evenly. Opinions invited"

I have just used Mikalor clips on some of my hoses. For the bottom hose to block, via the steel tube, (i.e. 4 required) I used 43-47mm 'part stainless steel' ones at £1.78 each from ebay. In hindsight this was probably a mistake - I measured the hoses outside diameter at about 45mm, but I used all of the movement on the clips to get them tight, and I still got a bit of a leak from the bottom one which I then replaced with a normal stainless jubilee clip I had, which worked better with a much larger diameter range (I prefer the jubilee clips that have the serrations cut all the way through - seem much stronger). Also the Mikalor clips were 20mm wide which looks a bit excessive. I should say that the two I bought for the bypass valve  (43-47mm) worked ok - but the width (20mm) probably a bit over the top.

Ali.

Thanks Ali, that's a great reply based on personal experience.  I'll give the Mikalor clips a miss.

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13 hours ago, BRENDA1 said:

Good time to flush that heat out if you have some long hose to connect and hang it out of the drives door, on the steering rack I was advised to get this type of rack mounts with the mileage we do, bit pricey but there is no chance the rack will move. It’s good your doing you photos and posts we all need a helping hand at times, I am going to look a my heater hoses tomorrow I think there ok but but not checked for a while.

Mike Redrose Group 

Thank you Mike, 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm over the top and sounding as if I'm complaining all the time, whereas my purpose is just to share what I'm discovering ..and learning as I go,  because almost certainly someone else will come along very soon ..and be faced with the same or something very similar.  I've learnt a huge amount recently, thanks to others sharing their questions and answers, so I'm just trying to pass-it-forward so to speak.  

I'm not at all keen on the idea of going to solid mounts.  I tend to think of this car's structure and suspension / steering as being a jelly and to tighten one aspect would be like putting a new patch on an old garment. Had the prior owner not already fitted poly-bushes to the steering rack then I would have refitted rubber ones. After all they are also there to take some of the shock out of joints, and a little harshness out of the feel.    

But perhaps my opinion is tinted by an unfortunate experience..  I used to have a lovely old 2-1/2 litre Daimler (1964) and, before I drove through the Alps to Slovenia, had all the brakes checked out and also every suspension rubbers replaced with poly-bushes.  Thereafter the car rode as if on top of its suspension rather than cradled within it.  It was horrid, if not dangerous, on undulating road surfaces.  In short, it ruined the car, and since then I've been wary of such technical advances.  Fortunately the red poly-bushes fitted to Katie  are not nearly as bad and the steering is exceptional, even though the steering wheel's rim is skinny.  I wouldn't want it any harsher.   I'll change the brackets and clamps but I think I'll stick with the bushes that are in there. 

Cheers, Pete.

p.s. hope your heater are better than mine !  I wonder because they are out of sight, out of mind whether silicon hoses might be more appropriate ?  Having said that I'm of an age where I'll not be driving this car in 20 years time ! 

 

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Thanks Marco, I'll watch out for those clips ..but are they not also limited in their range of adjustment ? ..as has been said of the Mikalor clip.

Geko, I'll now specifically look out for signs of damage and/or of cracks.  Thanks for the heads-up.

Unless I'm mistaken, I fear the usual upgrades to the chassis' front suspension mounts have not been done. . .

777886106_TR2021-03-12005s.jpg.185d099bf08a7c559213c7b3f9de24da.jpg

Pete

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Morning Pete, there’s always something in the way when you try to make it look good under the bonnet, all you can do is install and clip it away for moving objects. Have a look at you + cable from battery on the fixing bar for the battery. 
as my photo there’s always something in the way.

Mike Redrose Group 

 

 

 

 

86299F84-9839-486D-BA57-36627DE5BADB.jpeg

C6E31DA9-5665-416B-869C-F34BFCCD5E91.jpeg

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Mike, yes I see the problem. Mine could be much improved though. 

This is about as clear as I could find . . .

795752596_post-9736-0-51standard_a.thumb.jpg.73cf7d5ff097cf104b39dfe948b9dc3c.jpg

- - -

 

On another note,  today I pulled the voltage stabiliser out and found no part number or other markings on it.  It is a pcb / solid state part and so shouldn't be effected by orientation. However it was correctly fitted.

That said I've checked through the receipts I have and spotted this from the TR shop, dated 2003 . . .

1271783628_2021-03-30TRvoltagestabiliser001s.jpg.b14ab6ce503c2c033ce5fb34a342951c.jpg

Like Holmes "I was looking for it", and so found the part number relates to positive earth.   But as my car has negative earth - the part number required was ;  Voltage Stabiliser - Negative Earth - 148876A.

I find no later receipt in the file, which alludes to this component, but note that the thermostat was subsequently changed a couple of times, as was the voltage regulator, the cyl. head gasket and the figure of 8 gasket.   One might presume that the unfortunate Bob has been concerned with these issues since he first put the car back on the road. 

Pete.

 

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1 hour ago, Geko said:

Happy to see that common sense prevails in swapping the fuel bowls lids and running the fuel line through the rear of the engine.

Likewise when I had my spare engine's carburettors professional refurbished I had this changed, so the fuel feed pipe will likewise come around the rear of the engine, which is both a shorter and less obtrusive route, and more importantly clear away from the fan belt.    I have yet to touch Katie's  carburettors, aside from dealing with a leaky fuel feed pipe and the absence of a float chamber gasket, which I suspect cost me £15 in leaked petrol  ..not to mention the risk of that spill (from the forward float chamber) in close proximity to the dynamo and exhaust manifold. 

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I should have included these pics of the Mikalor clips to help with your decision ... If you like the look they're probably fine if you get the right diameter. I don't know if they do them any thinner than 20mm.

 

20210330_134802.jpg

20210330_134831.jpg

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4 hours ago, BRENDA1 said:

Morning Pete, there’s always something in the way when you try to make it look good under the bonnet, all you can do is install and clip it away for moving objects. Have a look at you + cable from battery on the fixing bar for the battery. 
as my photo there’s always something in the way.

Mike Redrose Group 

 

 

 

 

86299F84-9839-486D-BA57-36627DE5BADB.jpeg

C6E31DA9-5665-416B-869C-F34BFCCD5E91.jpeg

Hi Mike,

You have a very nice cover there on the master cylinders, tidied it up no end, did you make it yourself ?

Mick Richards

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^ neat detail Mike,

 

 .. and a good evening to all,

This afternoon I refitted Katie's  voltage stabiliser, back onto the footwell bracket (and what an awkward sod it is to reach, a left handed operation, tucked up in the far corner in line with the top of the pedals).  I did give the bracket a cursory scrape to remove a some paint ..but nothing much.  And then headed off to the farm shop for some green groceries, about five miles away. The temperature gauge is now reading on the cool side of normal.  Whether that is because one of the wires had a dry connection, or the earth is now adequate - I don't know.  Nothing else was touched ..but it now works. The effectiveness of the TR6 fan is possibly why the temperature is on the low side of normal.

After shopping, I came back via the dust bowl (about 3 miles) where, ostensibly because the tappets were too noisy, I removed the rocker cover and the rocker-shaft-assembly to again re-torque the head. This was for the second time in two weeks, but I figured.. if things were now mostly OK., then why not just settle thing down just that tad more, just to be sure. At the same torque settings of course. 

The inside of the rocker cover did still have a little condensation, and light mayo down one end, but not enough to write home about. My re-torquing and resetting the tappets was done in double quick time because I had an appointment to get back to, but I did also check the level in the radiator.  And the water was both clear and full to the brim. There's been no sign of water overflowing from the expansion bottle over the passed few local trips.

Re-starting the engine and the drive home was quieter than I've previously known with this car. Although just 2-1/2 miles, from the still slightly warm engine, the gauge soon settled again to reading on low side of normal (needle pointing to 6:30 - 7:00).  For the first time, all appears normal. 

it's ominously Weird !  :blink:

. . .

. .

.

... but good ! B)

 

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3 hours ago, Bfg said:

After shopping, I came back via the dust bowl (about 3 miles) where, ostensibly because the tappets were too noisy, I removed the rocker cover and the rocker-shaft-assembly to again re-torque the head. This was for the second time in two weeks, but I figured.. if things were now mostly OK., then why not just settle thing down just that tad more, just to be sure. At the same torque settings of course. 

Re-starting the engine and the drive home was quieter than I've previously known with this car. Although just 2-1/2 miles, from the still slightly warm engine, the gauge soon settled again to reading on low side of normal (needle pointing to 6:30 - 7:00).  For the first time, all appears normal. 

it's ominously Weird !  :blink:

Just sitting out enjoying the still evening air  ..and of course thinking.  A little something I did, sort-of matter-of-course without noticing, was to screw the four finger-loose rocker-pedestal / rocker-shaft studs back into the cylinder head and pinch them up with a pair of mole grips.  Yes I know that's horribly crude. Normally I would remove them and thoroughly clean the threads out (with carb cleaner), and refit the studs with Loctite / thread-lock, and at the same time pinch them up tight using double nuts.  Not much of an excuse for my slovenliness on this occasion 'cept that I was in a mad rush.  I'll revisit and do them properly at a later date. 

However, a point that some owners might relate to - is that the tappets were rattling when I bought this car (just 3 weeks ago).  I then re-torqued the cylinder head bolts (because the head gasket was seeping) and at that time I (very carefully) reset the tappet clearances.  And then, within a very short period of time (and distance) - they were rattling again.  On reflection ..helped by some rather pleasant red wine, it strikes me that the tappets themselves were not going out of adjustment, but that the coarse threads of these studs may have been somewhat "self-adjusting" and undoing (despite their top nuts being correctly torqued down). This being facilitated by the engine's heat cycles, and so when hot ..the long studs thermally expand and are then looser than when were cold. They are even loose enough to unwind ..albeit just a tad.  Together with the vibration inherent in a rocker shaft, they vibrate loose enough to adjust the tappet clearance.   And Yes, that does imply the rocker pedestals were rattling ..rather than the tappets. 

As soon as all four studs were tight into the cylinder head - my engine's tappet rattle was gone. 

So., if your or a friend's engine has a similar issue of noisy tappets, that are noisy again soon after adjustment - it may be worth your checking that the rocker pedestal studs are both tight and secured with thread lock. I seem to recall on Triumph motorcycles the studs were drilled and pinned. Perhaps they were on some Triumph car engines too.? 

I must admit, perhaps because I've always ensured engine studs are clean, loctited and tight - as I rebuild an engine, this is a new one on me.

Pete.

 

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20 hours ago, Bfg said:

Thank you Mike, 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm over the top and sounding as if I'm complaining all the time, whereas my purpose is just to share what I'm discovering ..and learning as I go,  because almost certainly someone else will come along very soon ..and be faced with the same or something very similar.  I've learnt a huge amount recently, thanks to others sharing their questions and answers, so I'm just trying to pass-it-forward so to speak.  

I'm not at all keen on the idea of going to solid mounts.  I tend to think of this car's structure and suspension / steering as being a jelly and to tighten one aspect would be like putting a new patch on an old garment. Had the prior owner not already fitted poly-bushes to the steering rack then I would have refitted rubber ones. After all they are also there to take some of the shock out of joints, and a little harshness out of the feel.    

But perhaps my opinion is tinted by an unfortunate experience..  I used to have a lovely old 2-1/2 litre Daimler (1964) and, before I drove through the Alps to Slovenia, had all the brakes checked out and also every suspension rubbers replaced with poly-bushes.  Thereafter the car rode as if on top of its suspension rather than cradled within it.  It was horrid, if not dangerous, on undulating road surfaces.  In short, it ruined the car, and since then I've been wary of such technical advances.  Fortunately the red poly-bushes fitted to Katie  are not nearly as bad and the steering is exceptional, even though the steering wheel's rim is skinny.  I wouldn't want it any harsher.   I'll change the brackets and clamps but I think I'll stick with the bushes that are in there. 

Cheers, Pete.

p.s. hope your heater are better than mine !  I wonder because they are out of sight, out of mind whether silicon hoses might be more appropriate ?  Having said that I'm of an age where I'll not be driving this car in 20 years time ! 

 

No not at all Pete,

loving your detail, keep it up.

John.

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On 3/29/2021 at 9:49 PM, stillp said:

A couple of comments Pete: first, the fan extension might seem tight when you try to rock it, but does it rotate a couple of degrees on the crankshaft? I don't know how you'd check that except by removing it and looking at the Woodruff key.

That engine mount looks a bit knackered to me.

Lots of people forget the heater when they're changing hoses. I need to change mine again although the existing ones look in good shape.

The doughnuts look OK from here.

I hope you get some good ideas about the pipes/wires/ cables/throttle linkage etc, there are several disasters waiting to happen there. Mine is a little better but the speedo cable rubs on the steering column.

That voltage stabiliser is in the correct place for the 4/4A, and is the right way up. The orientation does make a difference, apparently.

I haven't used silicone hoses, but I know a chap who did, and had problems with them slipping off the radiator.

Great to see you getting stuck in!

Best of luck

Pete

Thanks Pete, You make lots of good points. 

I didn't think to check the tightness of the big bolt through the fan extension, as I changed the cooling fan.  It's now on my mental job-to-do list.  On an optimistic note I suspect it is tight because the timing chest seal is normal, ie., weeping a tiny amount rather than leaking.  Some time soon I'll also want to check the crankshaft's end float. I seem to remember reading that this can be done externally by prising the fan extension forward and back, however if I can find a local Triumph-thinking mechanic, I'll have them drop the sump and check to see if the big-end shells are still in good shape. Oil filter conversion, engine mounts and the steering rack too are probably all easiest done then ..ie., with the car on a lift.  They can also check for chassis damage and/or cracks. 

But the heater pipes are now high priority.  Although the heater seems to work very well, I'll want to flush that end of the water-works.  I guess I'll go for rubber pipes, at least for the time being. I don't like the idea of a pipe slipping off.  But I can see the benefit of a silicon top hose because it is more flexible.  I see Moss convoluted top hoses in silicon are on back order.  I haven't decided on which clips to use. I feel lumpy Jubilee clips are Ok for large diameter thick walled rubber pipes, but not so good for small diameter and thinner walled pipes ..so I'll probably use stainless ones.  I have some on my boat so I'll see what I have and which look to offer the most-even tightening. 

The wires and cables under the dash I'll simply tidy and make secure for now.  My size 13's tend to snag any that dangle.  I've pretty-well decided to move apartments (my home) in a couple of weeks time, after which I'll have some outside working space ..with power / without sand storms, to work on the car / the bikes / my boat bits / etc.  Then I'll want to apply some fresh paint all around the foot-wells and similarly have the underside of the car steam cleaned and again coated with fresh paint.  Assuming its OK for the time being, I'll readdress the voltage stabiliser at that time, ensuring its earth is good and it, and each of the wires, connections are cleaned and dipped in Vasceline.

Having the car on a patio will also mean I can re-fashion the steel TR3 gearbox cover myself and then get the interior refitted. That would be nice. Steering column donuts will be done, but they can wait a while if you recon they look OK for now.   Might I ask - Why is the steering rack earthed ? 

Thanks for your and everyone else's moral support,

Pete.

 

  the pipes/wires/ cables/throttle linkage etc

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“On an optimistic note I suspect it is tight because the timing chest seal is normal, ie., weeping a tiny amount rather than leaking”

Err...no. Sorry Pete but the crankshaft pulley doesn’t touch the timing chest cover other than through the oil seal around the crank. Your pulley could be held on by 5 ft lbs and you’d never know, as said before 1st gear, bricks in front of the rear wheels, handbrake on and use a single hex 1 1/8 af socket to torque up.

Mick Richards

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1 hour ago, trchris said:

Hi Pete 

the steering rack is earthed for the horn you should have small jump wires over the rubber couplings as well

Chris

But the horns are bolted to the body tub ?

 agh ha !  ..got it the horn button on the steering wheel.  sorry I had a grey-blonde moment there !

Thanks Chris.

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