Z320 Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 5 hours ago, Bfg said: Would changing the 0.75" master cylinder for a 0.70" make a noticeable difference ? Pete Yes, and a 0.625" master even works better. Apart from what other told me it worked well on my TR4A (and still does with the Sachs unit I now use) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 Just now, Z320 said: Yes, and a 0.625" master even works better. Apart from what others told me it worked well on my TR4A (and still does with the Sachs unit I now use) Thank you Marco, makes sense and very useful that you know from experience. I'll fix the fork pin and then if it's still uncomfortably heavy will investigate this further. Pete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 11, 2021 Report Share Posted March 11, 2021 Try button head grease nipples. You fit the gun at right angles to it from any direction. https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/products/429-10-grease-nipple-10mm-thread https://www.mcmaster.com/button-head-grease-gun-fittings/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 Because of the inaccessible position of the clutch slave on a Renault UN1 transaxle, the bleed nipple is on the end of a length of rigid brake pipe, that is in an access is place. That might be possible or for your grease nipples too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 As the later cross shafts did not have grease nipples, is it that important ? Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stuart Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Lebro said: As the later cross shafts did not have grease nipples, is it that important ? Bob. If theyre put together with sufficient lube in the first place not really. TBH if you orientate the grease nipple correctly if fitted then theyre not that difficult to get to. Stuart. Stuart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 I'm generally using lithium grease with molybdenum, as recommended for UJ and places where access to greasing is infrequent for things like this. Is that OK ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
john.r.davies Posted March 12, 2021 Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 10 hours ago, john.r.davies said: Because of the inaccessible position of the clutch slave on a Renault UN1 transaxle, the bleed nipple is on the end of a length of rigid brake pipe, that is in an access is place. That might be possible or for your grease nipples too. Not sure if that is autocorrect, big finger trouble or alcohol, but it should read, "Accessible place" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2021 (edited) Evening All, The clutch release mechanism parts have been ordered and the car is booked in, for Thursday, to have the gearbox pulled and to hopefully sort the clutch fork pin. And hopefully put the slave cylinder in the right place. Moving on in the meantime.. After the strong winds and rain we've had this week, today I went out in Katie for the second time .. to the farm produce shop ('Richards' in Westerfield) and then across to where my storage container is. I had a few jobs I wished to do, or at least look at, a couple of which I'll come back to at another time. But one little job was simply to check the cooling system, and to possibly to flush it out. Let me share with you a few symptoms . . radiator coolant water coming out of the expansion bottle after a run. That water is a little frothy. emulsified water on the underside of the rocker cover cap. oil pressure 50 psi water level going down oil level rising Let me also share with you . . rocker cover cap didn't have emulsified deposits when I viewed the car for purchase. Engine oil and water level were normal at that time. Oil is clean, obviously very recently changed. Oil pressure was c. 60psi around the housing estate during the test drive, when Bob drove. Bob has receipts for the figure 8 gasket and associated parts in April 2016. Since then the car has done just 1100 miles. Caveat Emptor Together with the clutch fork this sorta bursts my 'Mr Happy bubble'. I will get over it because I do love the TR4, but I'm disappointed in finding myself so gullible. I'll first re-torque the cylinder head bolts, but because I now live in an apartment block and where my storage container is, is a dust bowl with sand and straw blowing around - I can't get into dismantling the engine. So, can anyone recommend a person, or affordable garage, near Ipswich, Suffolk who have good experience of the four cylinder TR engine ? I very likely need the head lifted off and its cylinder sleeves set to the correct height for the figure-of-eight gasket to seal reliably. Thanks. Bidding you each a good weekend. Pete . Edited March 13, 2021 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
trchris Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Hi Pete Not good by the sounds of things looking likely a engine strip is looming Have you thought of rebuilding the spare block you have and remove the engine and gearbox together and address your clutch problem at the same time ? I know how your feeling there was a lot of hidden things I found on mine when I first bought it which made me question why did I buy it but I just stood back looked at it and then remembered why I did. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobH Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Before going as far as to strip anything down, lift the rocker cover and look at the waterway blanking plug on the top face of the head. Those have been known to corrode through. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie D Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Pete, May also be worth checking the torque of the head nuts. I think in the past that Bob mentioned that he had done that to cure a water in oil problem (Apologies to Bob if I have got that wrong.) Charlie. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Thanks Chris, Yes I agree with what you say. I know that Katie could be a good driver's car once these issues are sorted out. Despite ergonomic issues I love the driving experience and the car's style. I'm just disappointed that the seller appears to have not been up front with me. If he'd just said that " I'm letting you have the car at bottom dollar because of this and that", then all would have been fine. I would have made my purchase decision based on what he must have known about but preferred to conceal. I also accept that It happens - the owner tootles about just to local shows and club meetings, and knows of the faults and the car's limits. But he's OK to live with them, and well as a long list of other 'foibles'. A new owner comes along, and within the first 20 miles discovers the more major issues. Knowing they are far from right, but not how long they've been like that - he fears the car is about to blow up and die. He may even push the car a little more than it's been used to ..perhaps as insignificant as 70mph on the motorway rather than 60, and things let go. The seller will honestly tell you 'it never did that with me' and he may be right. I'll first try to re-torque the cylinder-head bolts, but because I now live in an apartment block and where my storage container is, is a dust bowl with sand and straw blowing around - I can't get into dismantling the engine. So.., can anyone recommend a person, or affordable garage, near Ipswich, Suffolk who have good experience of the four cylinder TR engine ? I very likely need the head lifted off and its cylinder sleeves set to the correct height for the figure-of-eight gasket to seal reliably. Thanks. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 12 minutes ago, RobH said: Before going as far as to strip anything down, lift the rocker cover and look at the waterway blanking plug on the top face of the head. Those have been known to corrode through. Thanks Rob, I'll check that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hamish Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Pete sometimes these things are sent to try us. As soon as I got my car I had to do the head gasket. But I am convinced it was just one of those things. The rest of the car was well sorted and more than useable. you have mentioned that the PO bought new fo8 2016 I think. We’re they fitted?. If they were, with only 1100 since then I would definitely look to retightening the head. Loosen and redo each stud. It may never have had the head nipped up after a few hundred miles. im sure this easy fix will sort you out. My fingers are crossed for you. H Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lebro Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Charlie D said: Pete, May also be worth checking the torque of the head nuts. I think in the past that Bob mentioned that he had done that to cure a water in oil problem (Apologies to Bob if I have got that wrong.) Charlie. No you are correct, it did cure the cylinder to water jacket leak. Probably worth checking if exhaust gasses are getting into the water. Either by looking for bubbles, or take rad cap off, top up, replace. Take car for a run, leave it overnight, take rad cap off, & listen for any release of pressure. This indicates cylinder to water leak. You say water is going down, & oil is going up. Is the oil emulsified (salad creamish) if water is in the oil then FO8 seal leak is most likely. Tightening head nuts could fix that too, even if only short term. Bob Edited March 13, 2021 by Lebro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Motorsport Mickey Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 Hi Pete, Driving them is more fun than working on them. Plus 1 here with Hamish and the other guys, easy fix approach first, retorque the head. Owners often think about doing it but just after an extra road trip...or after the holiday...or when the weather is warmer and suddenly you've put another 400-600 miles on it. These days I retorque after a couple of hundred miles after a rework with head off, and if I feel necessary again after maybe another 2k (not mandatory but it doesn't hurt). But if your engine had been reworked by PO and now has 1100 miles on it and has a possible weep, then given advice says a 1000 mile retorque I'd be suspicious it may not yet have been done. It will only take an hour, drop the water level down below the head gasket area (to prevent capillery water creep when loosening off nuts) then undo the nuts by about 1 flat and retorque up to 105 lb ft in the appropriate sequence. Refill with water anti freeze mix (even use the original mix if saved and in ok condition) and if your circumstances allow with lockdown etc complete about 100 mile drive to get the engine good and hot and help burn off any water inside. Then monitor the condition of the underneath of the rocker cover and the cap for a thousand miles. The continuing stop start of 20 mile runs doesn't help condensation to get burned off and just restarts the same process. Mick Richards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 13, 2021 Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Lebro said: No you are correct, it did cure the cylinder to water jacket leak. Probably worth checking if exhaust gasses are getting into the water. Either by looking for bubbles, or take rad cap off, top up, replace. Take car for a run, leave it overnight, take rad cap off, & listen for any release of pressure. This indicates cylinder to water leak. You say water is going down, & oil is going up. Is the oil emulsified (salad creamish) if water is in the oil then FO8 seal leak is most likely. Tightening head nuts could fix that too, even if only short term. Bob +1 for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2021 (edited) Thanks chaps, my first thought was to re-tighten the cylinder head bolts, just in case that worked, but am particularly grateful to those who propose slackening off first, and to Mick for the additional tips of reducing the water level to prevent water creep, and also to give the car a good run afterwards. I hadn't noticed anything odd about the oil on the dipstick, but tbh I didn't know to look for those things, only emulsified water on the rocker cover cap, and then when I lift that cover to see what's inside. Even peering down inside the rocker cover looks very clean, aside from around the cap's orifice. I'm of course hoping that the previous owner just forgot to re-torque the cylinder head bolts after he replaced the figure of eight gasket in April 2016. As he's only done 200 - 250 miles a year since then ..local club meets and shows, it's likely he just forgot to do after 300 - 600 miles. I'm always the optimist ! I have very little experience of working on water-cooled engines, and the workshop manuals for the vintage motorcycles make no mention of loosen the cyl. hd. nuts off first. So I've only ever just to pinched them up. That task is necessary on our Sunbeams possibly half a dozen times in the first 1000 miles .. possibly because of it being an all alloy engine with very low bolt tensions and a thick copper gasket ? Pete Edit : I dare not do the re-torquing today because the farm yard, where my container & tools are, is a sandy dust bowl. I was amazed yesterday, while greasing the king pins and wire wheel splines, how sand and straw was getting in my hair and literally collecting around to leave a silhouette of where I lay on the concrete. It's not the environment I want to take the rocker cover off in, but if the wind dies down for tomorrow - I'll tackle it then. . Edited March 13, 2021 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mick Forey Posted March 14, 2021 Report Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) I rebuilt my TR3 engine in Spring 2020 and then drove it 500 miles. I then took Mick's advice, but started by marking where the nuts were, backed them off one flat and retorqued them. I was amazed that some only rotated back to their original position but others went 1-2 flats beyond when pulling on the torque wrench in a single slow smooth action. Definitely worth doing then give it a good long drive to dry out the condensation. Mick Edited March 14, 2021 by Mick Forey Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) As I've said the farm yard, where my storage container is, is a dust bowl of sand & straw in blustery winds, so Saturday was a no show in regard to removing the engine's rocker cover. However yesterday, although still a little breezy the ground was damp, and so I did pop across there to check and tighten Katie's cylinder head nuts. It's only a few miles drive from where I now live, but this is what we had . . . ^ what was that advert " it's frothy man !" ? ^ yuk. ^ The rocker shaft needs to be removed to access the cylinder head nuts on these engines. I'd not had to do that before on bike engines, but it's not a big deal because the valve clearances would all have to be reset anyway ..if of course the nuts did tighten a little more. Btw., I spotted before buying the car that the cylinder head was, I think, a TR4 rather than 4A one, because there’s no flat boss for its serial number besides #1 inlet port of the manifold. When I asked Bob about this, he said the head was simply an exchange unit for unleaded petrol. ^ the two end studs inside showed frothing around them. That may be coincidence though, insomuch as the flow of oil may have washed the others clean of froth. Conversely it may be indicative that combustion gasses had been leaking passed the head gasket into those stud holes. ^ the core plug doesn't appear to have been leaking (no froth sitting on or immediately around it when I first removed the rocker cover, but judging by the pitting it does look like I'd better come back in here to change it sooner rather than later. ^ The serial number on this cylinder head reads 3151, so I guess that implies it is a pretty early high-port TR4 head as opposed to a 1967 TR4A one.? Its cast-in part number reads T276. Anyway regarding re-torquing the nuts to the prescribed 100 - 105 ft lb - I checked before releasing them and each were already tight to 105 ft lb or more. But following Mikey's advice (..I am indebted to you Sir) I cracked them off just a little, which in practice was more like 25 - 30 degrees of the torque wrench handle. I wasn't clear on whether I should do just one at a time and retighten it, or else to crack off each nut and then to retighten them all. I opted for the latter, cracking each nut off ( in the recommended head-tightening sequence), before re-tightening them all ..again in sequence. I re-torqued them yet again at the same 105 ft lb., just as a check and to ensure they were all even. Perhaps it's usual practice with car engines but I'd not heard (..or perhaps registered) the advice to crack the nut’s tension off. It makes every sense and so obvious when one thinks about it, and perhaps so commonplace that no-one even mentions it. Anyway a BIG THANK YOU to Mickey for that tip .. because they all took up considerably more than the less-than one-quarter-of-a-turn they were undone. Indeed I was just a little anxious when four or five swings (albeit in limited confines) of the torque wrench was needed to re-tighten some. This old dog learnt a useful lesson here. While the rocker spindle assembly was out of the way - I cleaned out the frothy residue, and numerous blobs of what looked like silicone-gasket-sealant, and refitted the rockers. I set the valve clearances (pushing the car forward in 4th gear to turn the engine over) in accordance with the manual to their prescribed 0.010" gap. And again did it twice., just to be happy with the feel of the feeler in each clearance. The rocker cover was of course cleaned out of its mayo and refitted. There is however no crankcase-breather re-circulation, catch tank, or valve on this car ..its pipe just leads down to the ground. ^ task done, although I will surely revisit it some time soon, not least to get the cover's fastening studs the same length. Next task was to flush the coolant of rust, but first I needed to address some chafing issues . . . ^ As it was.. To be fair Bob (the prior owner) had fitted a sleeve over this very coarse thread, but that had slipped down, out of sight. The angle of the heater's valve ought to be altered but just for the time being I shortened the overly-long angle-clamp on the battery and swapped its hook-bolt for a correct / smoother one. I then used heat-shrink around that to soften it. It's a temporary fix but better than leaving it to get worse. And yes I'll need to replace that frayed bonnet release cable too. The rust tinted coolant in the radiator had a faint taste of antifreeze, but there wasn't much in there. Its rusty discolour is now all flushed away by first removing the radiator's bottom hose. I’ve cleaned up around and inside the overflow bottle, as best I could without dismantling things further (the bottle doesn't just lift out) and refilled it all again with just clean water. I'll come back to add the antifreeze, which is nowadays just as important as rust inhibitor, after I've done some testing. On Friday I had shortened the radiator’s top hose by ½” and adjusted the radiator stays to pull its angle slightly back. The bonnet now clears the radiator rather than clatters. With everything back together again and a few cable ties added to prevent cables chittering away against each other, and a neoprene foam pad added under the bonnet stay to stop its own demented chattering away when the bonnet is closed.., all was good to go. I took a car for a 20 mile run, but by then the rain was starting to get a bit heavy for driving around with the top down, so I called it a day. With the wet from the rain, and now clear water in the radiator I couldn't see if anything was overflowing when I stopped, but from what I might make out there wasn't anything more dubious happening than the coolant water having expanded in volume as it got warmer. I peering in to the radiator, and the water level was to the very top. This is certainly a vast improvement on the radiator's core being exposed after just a few miles run. Since removing it, on the day we collected the car, I've had no thermostat fitted (one is on order) but even without that the temperature gauge used to read 1/8" off cold. For yesterday's run it remained cold and the engine was hesitant (as if needing a little choke) when pulling away from junctions. So, although presently inconclusive, it seems that Bob simply forgot to re-torque the cylinder-head-nuts down, or didn't know to back those nuts off first, after he had the engine apart for the same gasket blowing into the water reasons in April 2016. I am hopefully now that the water ought to stay put. Fingers, and all sorts of other things, crossed. Pete. Edited March 16, 2021 by Bfg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BRENDA1 Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 Pete a good day work, but before you put your antifreeze in see if you can get the water tap off on the drivers side of the block just above the starter, water should flow from this, if not get a welding rod or similar and have a poke around to see if water flows, this tends to got blocked if water is not changed regularly. Mike Redrose Group Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueTR3A-5EKT Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) Good work done. Let us hope that the re torque does the business and seals the head gasket, as it has done for many of us. Did you change the oil as well as the radiator coolant? Peter W Edited March 15, 2021 by BlueTR3A-5EKT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ian Vincent Posted March 15, 2021 Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, BRENDA1 said: Pete a good day work, but before you put your antifreeze in see if you can get the water tap off on the drivers side of the block just above the starter, water should flow from this, if not get a welding rod or similar and have a poke around to see if water flows, this tends to got blocked if water is not changed regularly. Mike Redrose Group Alternatively, put an air line on it to blow the crud away from the tap. I had to do that on mine the first time I drained it. Rgds Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bfg Posted March 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2021 17 minutes ago, BRENDA1 said: Pete a good day work, but before you put your antifreeze in see if you can get the water tap off on the drivers side of the block just above the starter, water should flow from this, if not get a welding rod or similar and have a poke around to see if water flows, this tends to got blocked if water is not changed regularly. Mike Redrose Group Thanks Mike and Ian, I did get a pathetic dribble from that tap and immediately thought to myself "what a daft place to put a drain - immediately above an electric motor" ..and awkward to get a funnel under it, not at all helped by the hot exhaust. I don't have an air-line (nor even mains power at the container), but I do have an assortment of different wires to poke around in there. It has also been suggested that I add a couple of cups of cheapo washing soda to the water, to run it and then flush it again. Any thoughts on doing that ? Thanks also to Peter W, Yes I do hope so. I haven't changed the engine oil as yet but I will do. The car's prior custodian was using Halford's Classic 20/50 which I use as a flushing oil and in my oil can for linkages. I prefer to use Penrite or Morris oils in my classic bikes. I'm also thinking of swapping to a cartridge oil filter (with an anti-drain valve ?) which ought to be a cleaner operation for oil changes, but have read numerous reports of their seals leaking. Is there any one supplier whose adapter works first time around to seal reliably ? Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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