That was a year that was..

[Z320]

No problem

[Hamish]

1 hour ago, brenda said:

Pete, just got this out of Brenda is it ok if I send it down to you. I am enjoying you posts and if I had the time I would follow your lead and copy what you are doing. But we are sending it away for a rebuild. 

Mike Redrose group 

 

 

Mike you had me worried when you told me you were taking the engine out !!!!

i can relax now I know you had expert help 

[Bfg]

Good Afternoon Europe ..and other former colonies

..and today's first special request is from Mr. Peter W.  of Pinner ..down there in an overcast Middlesex, who writes in for us to play a piece by that classic composer ; Distributor Shimming  . . .  It seems that Peter has been practicing this little ditty himself on his bass size hole punch

23 hours ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Distributor drive end float is the next check then.... gear bush in block needs to be shimmed if too low and the end float is too large 

Peter W

We are of course very glad to oblige. .  So, from the sheet music by Haynes, we will begin with the chorus .  . .

 

darn.. determine this, calculate that  - it's really not very clear is it. 

In the Standard-Triumph workshop manual, their examples confused me more., and the description makes no mention of (nor allowance for ) the gasket between the pedestal and block. This is in the parts book, but is described as a 'washer, joint, between pedestal and block'  ..so I assume it should be there (..I know never assume !)   But surely, unless this gasket is allowed for, its thickness would add to the end-float being set, and then the total end float would be quite massive and non-sensible.  This manual instead talks of  "requires packing"  ..but doesn't explain further. 

And there-in lies the confusion - the language.  To a simple-minded engineering type, like me ; a "gasket" is is a compressible membrane used to help seal between joint surfaces. And "packing" is either carrying a weapon, or rather more frequently with my lifestyle ; something a parcel has internally to prevent the contents from moving about &/or is wrapped around the outside to protect the item from getting bashed.  Whereas a "shim" is a flat, non-compressible spacer with a thickness made to a tight tolerance. 

To lil 'ol me they are very different things.  Moss catalogue describe it as a gasket/shim ..which is like saying to a pilot "over and out"  

And as someone who bought a scrapper engine and then ancillary 'bits' to go on it ..three of which (..so far) have proven to be the incorrect part,  and otherwise expecting there to be a gasket between any ancillary and the block  ..I was kinda lost

I ventured on nevertheless

..for this engine ;

^ Haynes paragraph 4.  A washer with a 1/2" (13mm) inside hole, to fit over the oil pump / distributor drive shaft.  I measured this one's thickness to be 0.0415 ( 41-1/2 thou " ). Its outside diameter isn't important but the washer does need to be clean and flat ( I deburred this one on emery paper).  

^ 5. Note the machine face on the engine block has been thoroughly cleaned. Likewise the machine face on the underside of the distributor pedestal which clamps to it.

^ 6 & 7.  Fit the distributor pedestal in place (without a gasket) and with those two nuts lightly pinched up - the temporary washer holds the pedestal away from the gasket face of the cylinder block. This is the gap to be measured. On this engine that gap measured  0.033".  

8. compare the thickness of the temporary washer with the measured gap. The difference represents the end float,  so ;  0.0415 --  0.033" = 0.0085" end float

It should be between 0.003 - 0.007"

"measure the thickness of a new gasket"    but, but, but  I don't have one !  ..I'm here trying to determine what thickness I'll need to buy.

 

Hey ho,  I'll do things my way ..and disregard all of the above !

^  With the pedestal bolted in place, with no ; gasket / shim / spacer / fag packet / toilet paper / nor anything else - I simply measured down the hole - the end-float of the distributor / oil pump shaft. ie., the amount of movement of that shaft between the brass bush it sits in and the underside face of the pedestal.  

Although the digital vernier may not be nearly as easy to use as a depth gauge in this sort of situation - it's what I have ..and with care is accurate enough. I used a spring between the vernier's jaws ..to keep its bottom end prod pushed against the top face of the shaft's gear, zeroed the digital read-out, and held the instrument steadily in place while pushing* upwards on the bottom end of that same shaft ..to see / measure how much free-play there was. The extent of up and down movement, pushing against the spring on the vernier, is the end float. (full stop !). 

This measured 0.005 - 0.006", so within the 0.003 - 007" permissible tolerance.  It's good. No shim is require.  And no gasket will be fitted, I'll just use a decent jointing compound.

* the oil pump is not fitted at the moment.

Now why couldn't Haynes or the Standard-Triumph manual just say  " measure the end-float movement with a depth gauge, and if tighter than 0.003"  add a shim under the pedestal to increase it.  And if the end-float is greater than 0.007"  then shim between the engine block and the underside of the flange on the shaft's brass bush ..to decrease it."   It's just one sentence ...and there's no piddling around with finding or making a 1/2" ID washer, feeler gauges in the gap, nor any calculations.

From the photograph,  I guess Peter W's distributor drive shaft was particularly loose, as he seems to be making two or three shims to insert between the block and the brass bush.  Placing them there is indeed correct practice, because very thin shims could possibly buckle in a rotating shaft, so his placing them underneath, where there is no rotation - is more work but much safer.  

Hope that helps,

Pete

p.s. my personal apologies to Marco for the superfluous length of this particular post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

indeed, after 2/3 of your post I thought - uuuh.....

Put it is you post, you do what ever you want.

BTW there is a video about that special issue at Youtube.

Ciao, Marco

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

My end float measurement before shims was quite large.  I too decided ultimate end float with gasket fitted was the measurement required.

The slave 1/2" id washer was the easy bit.  You have 10 special hardened ones under the nuts that hold the head on. Remember to use use them when you fit the cylinder head later.

I probably spent more time making drifts with spigots on them to fit and remove the drive bush from the block.  I double checked the fitted and assembled end float using a dial gauge on the driven gear shaft. 

Please Note:- If you get it too tight the cam or the driven gear will loose teeth when the engine runs.

The end float tolerance is probably important for 2 reasons. 

1. Stops the driven gear shuttling up and down and affecting distributor timing, 

2.  Reduces the gap that high pressure oil direct from the oil pump on its way to the oil filter can leak through.

Cheers

Peter W

[Bfg]

 

^ Thanks Peter,  knowing the reason for the end float tolerance is useful.

 

Just because I want to shelve them for the time being, and need to know they work and are the right part before doing that ; I cleaned up the fuel pump and starter motor.

Apart from AC cast into the top I see no part number.   Moss catalogue state the same part for all the 4-cylinder model TR's so I'm hoping it is the right item.

^ it scrubbed up pretty well but there's still a fair amount of petrol staining, particularly in the top corners which is reluctant to come off.  It would probably shift easy enough if I got the de-carb out, but I'm not too worried about that as I don't want a pristine car.

The important thing is that it appears to work well, although by now I guess the rubberised parts inside might be due for replacement. 

So that, and the starter motor - which works when a battery is connected, and I've subsequently cleaned of the gritty grease in & around the bendix, can be boxed and put away.  I also removed the surface rust off the casing and squirted some zinc.    

^ The Lucas M418G part number checks out as being correct starter for the TR3A - 4A. 

I guess that's it for a few days now, as I've just had a couple of molars extracted, and it's very soon to be Christmas Eve.  So for tonight I'll bid you all

Wonderful Seasons Greetings

..and I'll catch up with you soon.

Pete.

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Pete,  Have you checked the starter motor shaft support bushes (one each end). Also the carbon brushes that lurk beneath the steel band.  I think I have some NOS ones in the garage somewhere if you get stuck 

cheers

Peter W

[Z320]

Hi Pete,

shure you know: no grease on the bendix cog.

I use there only gun oil or petroleum.

Ciao, Marco

[stillp]

2 hours ago, Z320 said:

Hi Pete,

shure you know: no grease on the bendix cog.

I use there only gun oil or petroleum.

Ciao, Marco

I was always told to only use a dry lubricant such as graphite powder.

Pete

[Z320]

Mine was not always working reliable and found it greased by a previous owner.

I removed the grease and put petroleum on it by the advice of a TR friend, that works since 10 years / 35.000 miles.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Z320

[john.r.davies]

Gun oil?  That is used on firearms, to stop them corroding, not for lubrication - it's a very light oil, with antirust additives.

Petroleum?    Gasoline?    It'll last about two minutes.   But graphite powder can't hand around that much, so maybe nothing at all!   But no grease!

J.

[Waldi]

After disassembly and thorough cleaning I have always applied a light spray of Molycote from a rattle can, this leaves a very thin coat and worked ok for me.

Waldi

[Lebro]

There is a "gun oil" called "Dry Slide"  it is molydimum particles in a solvent, so when dry it makes a good non sticky lubricant.

Don't know if this is what Marco was referring to.

Bob.

[Bfg]

The Standard-Triumph TR4 workshop manual (Electrical section 6-113) says  " If necessary wash the drive assembly in paraffin to remove dirt and grease, which is the usual cause of a sticking pinion. Do not lubricate the components." 

[Waldi]

23 minutes ago, Lebro said:

There is a "gun oil" called "Dry Slide"  it is molydimum particles in a solvent, so when dry it makes a good non sticky lubricant.

Don't know if this is what Marco was referring to.

Bob.

Hi Bob,

yes, that is what my rattle can MoS2 does.

Cheers,

Waldi

[stillp]

2 hours ago, john.r.davies said:

 But graphite powder can't hand around that much

It does John. Try it.

Pete

[Hamish]

That petrol pump is a good period one with the bronze (?) cam lever. 

I have Dave Davies number if you need it the fuel pump refurb guru. 

But valve kits are available. 

[Z320]

7 hours ago, Lebro said:

There is a "gun oil" called "Dry Slide"  it is molydimum particles in a solvent, so when dry it makes a good non sticky lubricant.

Don't know if this is what Marco was referring to.

Bob.

Hi Bob,

since Babylon we have some problems, don't we.....

"Gun oil" you may know as " white oil" or "sewing machine oil", trade mark at Germany is "Balistol", I love  it.

Most spray oil (for example WD40) mainly contains what we call at Germany "petroleum", at the UK you may call it "paraffin", at th US "kerosine". It's smell in annoying to me, others may love it.

Hope that helps

Marco

[Z320]

MoS2 is a powder,

if you want to have it liquid you have to add it to oil, mainly C11--C14 oil, that's close to petroleum I think?

That's not bad, but "MoS2 lubricant in rattle can" is mainly oil and only some real MoS2.

You need the rattle to mix up the MoS2 in the oil again before you use it.

Otherwise you spray only the oil, keep the Mos2 in the can and throw it in the bin when to oil is empty.

Please correct me if I should be wrong.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Z320

[Waldi]

Hi Marco,

no need for correction on Christmas;).

Here is the product I use:

https://www.fuchs.com/lubritech/en/special/product/product/8315-gleitmo-900-spray/
 

It’s leaves a dry thin coat of solids, but initially creeps everywhere, until the liquid that carries the solids has evaporated (which happens very quick).

Merry Christmas to my fellow TR-ers!

Waldi

[Z320]

Hi Waldi,

thank you for that, description sounds lovely, product offered via eBay.

Too late for the christmas tree... :-)

Merry Christmas

But we are off the post and should finish this here...

Marco

Edited December 25, 2019 by Z320

[Bfg]

.

Seasonal Greetings All. 

I survived the dentist 'experience'  and now it's time to prepare for the machining and subsequent rebuild.  I haven't removed the timing chest yet nor have I touched main bearing or camshaft, but I'd like to get at least some of the following parts ordered asap, to avoid holdups as n' when I need them, not least because they will be needed by the machine shop.  This is where I'm at so far ..and still trying to work through catalogues

Already Bought :

• TR3 flywheel                                                       (approx 20 lb in weight before machining)
• Borg & Beck Diaphragm Clutch                  (drilling of TR3 flywheel necessary to fit)

Ordering :

• Flywheel Ring Gear - bolt-on 4A                 (machining & drilling of TR3 flywheel necessary to fit)
• Flywheel Bolts  x4                                             I freed the engine by turning the originals with a long lever.  I'll not use those in the rebuild. 

• Gasket set - Head                                             Any advice ?  Moss catalogue is misleading in its inset showing head & cover gaskets. Is the upgraded cyl head gasket required? 
• Gasket set - Block                                             Any advice ?
• Seal - Rr lip oil seal kit       (scroll removal necessary)      A decision had to be made ;  scroll,  scroll + lip seal,  or lip seal on a freshly reground journal.  Pros & cons with each. 
• Seal - Fr.Crank
• Core Plug Set                                                    I only see two core plugs in the 4A block and one rear of the cylinder head 

• Piston + Liner set (87mm)
• Big Ends +010 (Glacier / Glyco)                 Is it worth paying the extra for OE spec big end shells, or should I use Tri-metal ?
• Big Ends Bolts - x8 Stretch TR4A type    The motorcycle engines I rebuild use split pins. I'm not used to stretch bolts and I guess they're OK, but for their price why risk it ?
• Mains +10 Trimetal                                         Can I use Tri-metal or is it worth paying the extra for Glacier / Glyco main bearings ?
• Crank Thrust - Set of 4 - Std                        Until i remove them and compare dimensions I don't know what thickness I need, but I guess these wear rather than the crank.? 

• Timing Chain                                                     Not pulled yet but I expect it to be well worn.
• Camchain - Tensioner                                    Not pulled yet but for £5 it's got to be worth replacing ?
• Cam followers - Tuftrided                            Not pulled yet, don't know if I'll need them if I keep the original camshaft ?
• Cam Wheel Lock Tab

• Oil Pump - spindle & rotor                            I'll go for a spindle and rotor from a reputable supplier as recommended by Mickey, and we'll see how the tolerances are then.
• Oil pressure relief valve - spring                 I tend to change these as a matter of course, but at almost £5 it's surprisingly expensive for what it is. 

• Washer - Head washers                               I know those outside the rocker cover are chewed up. I need to recheck the others. 

• starter motor brush set                                Not yet pulled but I assume they'll be needed
• starter motor bearing / bush set             - ditto -

• Front engine mounts - standard              I can't see the need for the rectangular type ..what Moss 'failsafe' design.
• Front engine mounts - side                         I'm unfamiliar with this (p.16 item 64 in the Moss catalogue) nor with the torque reaction buffer - anyone help with a photo ?
• Lifting Bracket - engine - rear                     the scruffy used one on ebay is the same price, so I might as well buy new ?

 

I expect to be buying most of these from either the  TR shop, London  or  Revington TR. 

But I'd be glad for any advice, note of where there's an omission, or any other recommendation you might like to suggest.

Thanks,

Pete.  

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Bfg

[Bfg]

Morning all,

Getting parts in didn't quite go to plan..  I was keen to get some of the machining started, which I cannot do without having the parts for the engineering shop to dimensionally match to.  So I'd hoped to get an order in to the TR Shop just before Christmas, for some of the bigger items like the piston and liners, for courier delivery inbetween Christmas and New year.   Unfortunately they were closed when I called on the Monday.  I sent them an email with what I wanted but nobody replied for a card payment.

Hey ho., I proceeded with trying to pull together a parts list of smaller items I'd also need. My friend Rich called one day, and in conversation advised me that said shop was open between Christmas and now, so I called them again to discuss a few bit and get prices. I got answers to my questions but they asked me to send them an email list for the prices. I did that but haven't yet got a reply.   Then another friend, Chris suddenly decided to visit me for a couple of days, giving 24 hours notice, so although it was great to see him - I lost four days of getting this engine stripped and into the machine shop. Now we wait until after the holidays, as the order for parts has still not been taken.  All in all that's a little frustrating.

While not being able to do much, I did do a quick drain down test. . 

^ Aside from turning the engine over, when I freed it from being seized, I haven't touched these valves. But just out of interest I wanted to see how well (or not) the valves were seating after years of standing / rusting.  Here I've simply filled the inlet and exhaust ports with parts cleaner.  Gravity does the rest.The above was after 45 minutes and #1 cylinder exhaust port is already an inch or two emptier than the others.

 

^ two hours later the fluid level in #1 cylinder exhaust port has dropped / drained a few inches. The others have seeped a little but not a lot, which is pleasantly surprising considering the pile of rust found inside #4 cylinder.  

Each of the exhaust valve seats will be replaced as they are converted for unleaded petrol ..and so will be re-cut and lapped in.  But unless the valve guides also need replacing, this little test tells me - the inlet valves just need a little hand re-bedding in. That's nice.

- - -

While my buddy Chris was here we inverted the engine on the motorcycle lift so I might remove the big end cap and thrust washers..   So here you go.  Father Christmas when not on duty, with beard trimmed again and out of his long red coat  . . . 

^ I know.. I'm not a photogenic person .. and then look even dumber in real life ! 

TR engine block inverted on the motorcycle lift / work bench (with its conveniently adjustable height, and narrow width - so I might work from either side). The wire is just there for safety / to prevent the engine from toppling when undoing things like the main bearing bolts.

Why not have it on the engine stand ?  Well, when I removed the cyl.head  I lost use of two of the mounting bolts (where the manifold studs go) for the engine stand to be mounted from the side.  And I couldn't mount the stand from the bell housing flange and still access to the bolts to the crankshaft scroll seal.  So this work bench works better all round. 

 

Back to the tasks in hand..

^ Removal of the middle main bearing cap is needed to get the thrust washers out. The lower (underside) halves of these thrust bearings have tabs on them (arrowed) which locate in the slot machined into either side of the middle main bearing cap.. They are there to prevent the thrust bearings / shims from turning with the crank.

The other (upper) half of these bearings / shims have no tab - so, with just the one cap off - they can be pushed / rotated around the main bear journal and easily removed / replaced ..with the crankshaft still in place.

Thrust bearings limit the amount end-float of the crankshaft, which generally isn't going anywhere ..until the clutch is disengaged. The clutch release bearing is pushing against the clutch spring(s) ..either conventional or diaphragm,  and that force is transferred via the pivots to the clutch cover ..which is bolted to the flywheel ..which in turn is bolted to the end of the crankshaft.   The clutch release mechanism is within the gearbox bell-housing, and so it is the force applied through this that pushes the whole floating / rotating assembly, including the crankshaft, forwards.  And that wears the rear thrust bearing ..because the oil (normally in this bearing) is squeezed out by the crankshaft pushing forward against the main bearing's seat & cap.

The significance of crankshaft end float ?  Well, an important factor here is in the alignment of the timing chain sprockets, especially as the two are relatively closely spaced and using a duplex chain. Logically,  because the crankshaft moves forward, and the rear thrust bearing wears soonest - the crankshaft sprocket might be statically aligned (perhaps 0.002 - 0.004") rearwards than the sprocket on the camshaft. 

So, the thrust bearings / shims are consumables which wear.  Replacements are available in different thicknesses, to accurately set the crankshaft end-float. The books say the end float needs to be 0.004 - 0.006"  (Haynes manual). The Standard-Triumph workshop manual gives a little more information insomuch as this end float ; 0.004 - 0.006" (desirable), but the wear limit,  ie. end float, is within tolerance with anything upto ; 0.015"   ..and that manufacturing tolerance may be anything between 0.0048" - 0.0117".    The sods..  so four to six thou-of-an-inch is correct, but Triumphs might have been made with almost twelve thou end float ..and that was fine.!  

Way back when < here >  I measured this engine's crankshaft end float to be 0.011",  so it is within tolerance.   

However as the engine is already stripped down and it's now easy to do - I'd like it correct.  So my next question was ; what thickness replacement thrust bearings do I need to buy ?    I couldn't find the answer in Haynes nor the Triumph workshop manual, but thankfully Moss catalogue helps us out.  p.19 item 85  tells us that the thickness of these bearings / shims  (standard) are 0.0925" thick.   With this information I could measure and determine the difference / wear of mine as ; 0.001" of the forward thrust bearings, and 0.0025" wear of the rear ones.  So if i were to replace these with new standard thickness bearings the end float would be 0.011 - 0.001 - 0.0025 = 0.0075"  ..that's still too much (but probably as this engine was originally assembled).

And if I were to replace these with the next thickness  which is 0.005" additional thickness (for the pair) then I'd have ;  0.011 - 0.001 - 0.0025 = 0.0075" - 0.005" = 0.0025"  ..which is too tight. 

So what I'll need to do is to re-use the lesser worn of the old ones, and just one new thrust bearing (which is 0.0025" thicker than standard)  ie. 0.011 - 0.001 -(0.0025 - 0.0025) = 0.005" end float.   That'll work.

Next job is to inspect the main bearings..

Pete.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Bfg

[rcreweread]

Peter - I've got a brand new set of TR Shop 87mm pistons and liners here in Colchester which you are welcome to have to get on, if I can have the set from TR Shop when they turn up

Cheers  Rich 

[Bfg]

Thanks Rich - That's very kind of you. 

I missed the slot with Robertsons I'd hoped to catch,  intending to do the machining in two lumps, so now it'll will be in the new year. 

So now I might as well take it all over together in one lump, when I get the new starter gear ring, big end bearings, fastenings, etc. 

Much appreciate your offer though, and I will still want to borrow your TR4A flywheel please.   

Pete