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Thinking out of the box helps.


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I have for many years worked on and rebuilt many cars and the older stuff always suffers from a shortage of parts. All too often I talk to people who insist that using modern parts and converting to suit is the way forward. e.g fitting an alternator, fake alternator dynamo and the like.

So it occurs to me that they do this and the knock on effect is that something else needs altering or it fails and they wonder why.

Electrical components were made by very few companies like Lucas, etc.

They made non specific generic items like dynamos, regulators, wiper motors and they were supplied and fitted to our cars. But they were also fitted to much more obscure vehicles, you just need to know which.

The companies that built vans used the same components like dynamos, wiper motors regulators. What if I could find an up-rated item that I could fit to my car?

For example to take my pet hate the humble dynamo which puts out around 21 amps and worked well and still does for most purists. With a high output battery the battery will work in all but a few cases. What have you fitted that is such a drain on the electrical system that requires fitting a £400 DYNALITE type unit aping a dynamo because you want it to look original and a dummy regulator box for originality's sake?

If you were to think out of the box you might consider using the dynamo from say a Thames Ice cream van or the like. Why, I hear you gasp in consternation?  What do all ICE CREAM VANS have in common and what is the purpose of a van that sells ICE CREAM.

They have bad music.

They start and stop constantly.

They have additional lighting.

THEY KEEP THINGS COLD!

They don't rev highly and so they need to keep things changed up to capacity.

You can but now, today probably, a dynamo that puts out 35 amps plus looks original, is original, fits perfectly, does not need pulleys to be altered, does not fall off, does not take out the water pump when it does.

Saves upwards of £300 to spend on things you really need.

With a matched regulator you keep the original looks and reliability, doesn't fry things and it wont leave you stranded wondering how to fix the botched together alternator mounting and spend an entire show fixing the car when it fails just as you arrive from afar with no spares store.

 

I like the challenge of thinking out of the box!

Rod

 

 

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Good thinking Rod, plus if you buy a used van complete then you probably get Ice Cream :-)

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Yeah. And if the ice cream's melted, you know the dynamo's no good!

Cheers, Richard

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No free ice cream i'm afraid. Between the dynamo and the end user appliances there's probably an enormous inverter which does the core job, it's not the dynamo output alone. Ohhh  you could fit an inverter in the boot of your TR and...do away with the spare wheel by replacing all tyres with run flats...and there goes your savings :ph34r:

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Yes, what i mean is that you need an inverter to run theses appliances, for a price.The Ice cream van dynamo example is surely sexy but misses a part of what's "in the box" and is not a saver....

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Alternator wiring is ridiculously simple and there's absolutely no reason why its mounting should fail.

Even a modest alternator will give 34 amps, and, with headlamps, wipers and heater running, will avoid discharge of the battery at a very modest 1000-1100 rpm.

Every modern vehicle is fitted with an alternator, and seldom do these fail.

No contest as far as a great many of us are concerned - it has to be an alternator!

Ian Cornish

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Geko,

On what experience  do you base your comments on? Have you checked the output of one of these dynamos before putting your foot in your mouth! Did you even read my post? Perhaps you should check what an inverter actually does.

Ian,

Each to his own , and i accept what you say but don't have to agree with it and the number of failed fittings of an alternator on side screen cars indicate an issue if nothing else. If you want originality then there are other and many options and mine was only one. You state that all modern cars are fitted with an alternator and they seldom fail, true. but fitting one to a car with potentially 60 year old wiring perhaps that's another story

You guys wonder why the forum is deminished and these types of fatuous comment are the reason and also why I left originally.

There are still some people that take their valuable time to pass on tips and things they have learned over the years in the hope they can benefit new comers. If you piss them off what do you achieve? 

Bye 

Rod

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HI Rod,

 back in the early 70's my department at BEA had a large Bedford van (something like a horse box but not as good)

It was our mobile Xray film processing lab.  I never experienced it being used in anger.

I iunderstand that it had an extra dynamo that could be moved into action to supply heating lighting etc. There was a hand knob for raising the revs for prolonged periods.

On one occasion  the driver, whilst driving along the airport apron, increased the revs an dthen got out of the van whilst doing about 10mph.

When the van went past him he saw that the passenger also had got out.

We now have a very large van heading off towards the runways.  10mph is quite fast for out off condition non-athletes to catch.

 

PM on its way

 

Roger

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My dynamo bracket broke last year. Only found it because the dynamo stopped working. 

Trbitz had a replacement in stock as time was critical and didn’t have time to do the alt conversion. 

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Been reluctant to join this thread for fear of upsetting anybody !

But I am of the opinion that the alternator conversion is a good idea, particularly if running an electric cooling fan.

They take a lot of current, & usually do so when you are sitting in traffic.

A dynamo at tickover is doing  nothing, so you are relying on having a good reserve of charge in the battery.

If, however, you no not run an electric fan, & do not have anything else which is "current hungry" like extra high wattage spotlamps etc,

then a dynamo will usually be ok in conjunction with a good battery.  This setup can be further improved by fitting LED bulbs all round.

 

Getting my coat :ph34r:

Bob

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Mm fitting anything to any car with 60 year old wiring would concern me- unless it was removed and thoroughly checked end to end for continuity and decent earthing for example, yes led bulbs would help on current draw and stick with engine mounted fan rather than an electric to keep the originality too. Everyone is different and we are all entitled to our opinions - it's not worth getting upset over it life's too short as we all know. Forums are great for sharing info, experiences, advice that's what they are here for. Yes some people can be arsey but you get that walking down the hi street or should I say in the large shopping malls - try working in retail for years like I did and you will really see how unreasonable and arsey folks can really be! 

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3 hours ago, Rodbr said:

Geko,

On what experience  do you base your comments on? Have you checked the output of one of these dynamos before putting your foot in your mouth! Did you even read my post? Perhaps you should check what an inverter actually does.

Based on years of working in hardship environment with generator /solar power supply. I know what an inverter does: it converts direct current to alternative current used for household appliances, like a freezer. The output of your dynamo is at best irrelevant for this application provided that it does the job in charging the battery and conducting current to an inverter for the freezer. What I'm saying, again, is that the Ice cream van example is irrelevant to illustrate the message you intend to convey.

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22 minutes ago, Geko said:

Based on years of working in hardship environment with generator /solar power supply. I know what an inverter does: it converts direct current to alternative current used for household appliances, like a freezer. The output of your dynamo is at best irrelevant for this application provided that it does the job in charging the battery and conducting current to an inverter for the freezer. What I'm saying, again, is that the Ice cream van example is irrelevant to illustrate the message you intend to convey.

If I am understanding you correctly, your point is that no matter what electrical load the ice cream van has or the operating conditions, it is the battery powering the inverter that is doing most of the work and the dynamo only needs to have enough oomph to keep the battery charged. Would the higher output dynamo not be more effective at doing that given the amount of time the van is sitting idling and its constant stop-start mode ?

 

Stan

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2 hours ago, michaeldavis39 said:

Mm fitting anything to any car with 60 year old wiring would concern me- unless it was removed and thoroughly checked end to end for continuity and decent earthing for example, yes led bulbs would help on current draw and stick with engine mounted fan rather than an electric to keep the originality too. Everyone is different and we are all entitled to our opinions - it's not worth getting upset over it life's too short as we all know. Forums are great for sharing info, experiences, advice that's what they are here for. Yes some people can be arsey but you get that walking down the hi street or should I say in the large shopping malls - try working in retail for years like I did and you will really see how unreasonable and arsey folks can really be! 

Absolutely agree, in my case it was a new standard loom, but I added a 2nd heavy wire from the ACR type alternator (which conveniently has two large output connectors) up to the new junction (which is needed when the regulator is removed) of "charge output", ammeter input, & other loads input .

Bob.

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I guess given the spirit of the original post, sure an alternator might be a good idea if you have an electric fan, but if you don't and just have the orignal mechanical then why go to an alternator..

Personally of course I have electric and my 6 always had an alternator

Tim

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OK guys,

Reading from the top, one or two posts here got a little bit close to the mark.
Please, stay civil, we are all grown ups, we can

'Agree to disagree' and stay friends, no need for anyone to get hot under the collar.

John.

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10 hours ago, Drewmotty said:

My dynamo coped admirably right up to the point where I fitted an electric fan and H4 headlamps.......alternator for me. 

Not sure why H4 headlamps should need a alternator. 

Unless you fit high wattage bulbs they should draw about the same current as their sealed beam originals.

The fan is the problem.

Rather than look for expensive higher output dynamos I’m with you: a basic alternator will do the job reliably and efficiently. They were around already when the TRs came out.

Frying you wiring is unlikely unless high current accessories are tapped into ageing, inadequate wiring.

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Hello Andy,

for me - running a 3A with standard dynamo, there are some points that make this topic important:

- the dynamo is specified to deliver max. 19A, ignition may need some 3-5A plus the lights (during night) with another 10-11A. Plus some Amps for the O/D.
The total load will be in the range of 17A ( 15...20A ?) then, giving the dynamo a load factor of 89%. You would dare to run the engine on constant 80% load….. 
As long as there is no additional electrics (like a fan) this should be "as designed".

- If lights are switched on, my ammeter tells me, that I am drawing current from the battery. Switching lights of results in a short period of loading - so there is "something" else. And - as drawing current from the battery, the total time of running with lights = ON may be limited.

This leads to thoughts of how to reduce power consumption.

What I found out is, that the characteristic of the load regulator seems to be "fold back": A high load results in reduced output voltage - so as long as this as balanced correctly, after a while the voltage from the battery is reduced and then the load current will equal the drawn current again.
But is this trustworthy?  

As having to do with electronics, I don't trust the mechanical regulator as this is definitely a unit with limited lifetime - and probably lacking the quality of a OEM-product, since they are reproduced "somewhere".

 

Regards and keep on discussing 

Johannes

Edited by j-eichert
O/D load added
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I have had several cars with a dynamo, and with the regulator is properly set and the dynamo, wiring and battery in good order, and no additional consumers like electric fans I had no issues.

But fact is a dynamo does not charge much when running at or near idle, so in busy traffic which we have nowadays like when in a traffic jam in a rainy dark night with wipers, lights and demister on, this can be an issue. Then an alternator is better, technically speaking. But how often do you drive in these conditions?

But this is a classic “each to their own preference” topic.

On my TR6 I have replaced the Lucas Alternator by a beefier Bosch 55 A item. I will not have a spare alternator in the boot.

Just a matter of personal preference.

Waldi

 

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It was fairly common in the 1950s/1960s for competition cars to be fitted with a dynamo giving higher output (at a guess, about 24A max) but also a Lucas RB340 regulator - these are what I found on 4VC when I bought it in 1969.

The RB340 has 3 coils: the usual cut-out and voltage regulator, but also a current regulator.  Instead of waiting for the battery to drain in order to get the voltage regulator working hard, as soon as the load (total amps) jumps up, the current regulator boosts the dynamo's output to cope (if it can!).  A superior system.  The RB340 is somewhat more difficult to set up as one needs a meter capable of reading to 20A, and the adjustments have to be done very smartly using a special tool (which I re-discovered this week!).

Willy Cave mentions the RB340 in his aptly-titled biography, "Putting Willy Cave on the Map".

Ian Cornish

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10 hours ago, Waldi said:

 

But this is a classic “each to their own preference” topic.

Waldi

 

This pretty much encapsulates the situation.  There are those who have no need for additional charging capability and/or prefer originality (a perfectly reasonable position) and those who do need extra charging capacity due to electric fans, lamps or slow driving in poor weather, etc. - and who care less about originality than what they see as practicality (another perfectly reasonable position - FWIW this includes me, but then I drive my TR in some ridiculous conditions...).

Rod's original post is a great bit of out of the box thinking for those, perhaps, in between who are looking for a reasonable cost option.  Seems like a good addition to our body of tech advice here on the Forum.

Tim

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