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Rodbr

Engine colour

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Given that my engine in my early car is a Factory reconditioned unit the colour is a blue similar to the Blue used on the cream and blue Healey 3000.

It does not make sense to me to change the colour to black as the brass engine plaque clearly refers to Exchange Stanpart unit No TS 895 FR. Not sure how early in the replaced cam bearing upgrade this is but fairly early I presume.

My question is what would be the closest paint to use?  It does appear to be a sort of early crackle finish like Hammerite.

Rod

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Hi Rod,

          when I got my TR4 in 2010 it had an FRE engine  FRE720 (I think).  That was painted black. I would assume that is how it came out of the factory.

Or possibly how it went into the factory and they didn't paint it.

 

What colour was yours when it left the factory.  Blue doesn't sound or look right to me.

 

Roger

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My engine TSA709FRE  was black, & TR3A spec i.e high port head, so I would assume cam bearings fitted.

 

Bob.

Edited by Lebro

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The two FRE units fitted in TR2s, cars we bought in early 1970's were both black (and still are)

Cheers

Peter W

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I would be pleased to see your engine plates as Mine does not have FRE engine number only FR as above. I appreciate what you are saying but for some reason it states STD F Bores, Std mains, std big ends so I suspect it was purely exchanged due to Camshaft bearing fitting. Does anyone know what all work was done during the process and were they just changed on an add hoc basis. or through a dealer.

The paint does not look like it was done with a hairy stick although looking close it does look as if there may be black below the rust.

Can those rivets be removed without butchering them as the original number may still be readable?

Roger,

I mean the engine was blue not the car which is a January 1954.

I wouldn't say out loud that you don't like blue cars as you might offend Bob. LMAO!!!

CIMG0265.JPG

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Hi Rod,

 I meant a blue engine not the car.  My TR4 s Royal Blue - Hmmmmm.

 

Roger

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Rod,

You asked:

“Can those rivets be removed without butchering them.”

I tried that with a Vanguard engine a few years ago because I was, like you, curious to find the original number.

(1)   It butchered the rivets and plate beyond repair.

(2)   After removing it there was no sign of the original number (probably ground off at the factory.)

No doubt someone with better metal working skills than mine will come along and say it is possible, but that was MY experience.

Hope that helps !

Charlie.

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The type of rivets used to secure these plates had a very coarse sort of thread and as they were knocked in they turned about half a turn to lock themselves in. I have removed them but you need to grip the domed head with a pair of mole grips and turn anti clockwise as you pull them out. Not easy.

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3 hours ago, Rodbr said:

I would be pleased to see your engine plates as Mine does not have FRE engine number only FR as above. I appreciate what you are saying but for some reason it states STD F Bores, Std mains, std big ends so I suspect it was purely exchanged due to Camshaft bearing fitting. Does anyone know what all work was done during the process and were they just changed on an add hoc basis. or through a dealer.

 

 Here is mine

1069321164_FREengineplate.thumb.jpg.a8c02711ccb5832887a1f599f906fac5.jpg

Bob.

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Rod,

Over the years, I've seen quite a few factory recon earlier type engines and the blue

hammerite type paint that you seem to have on your's is what's always been

on those engines (vaquely remember also Vanguards).Of course, it would come off if you

didn't like it!

The rivets are copper and will drill out easy peasey.You will find nothing but

grinding marks underneath the FR plate.

I've never seen a TR2 recon block that had had the cam bearings obviously retro

fitted i.e. with some retaining screws to hold them in their bores.Doesn't mean that they

don't exist of course.

Nowadays you wouldn't bother with the screws and rely (hopefully) on an

interference fit like just about every other engine in the world.

Roger M-E

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I have a Doretti engine here numbered TS 1061 FR. It was painted gold and sold as a gold seal engine which it wasn't, underneath the gold it is black. I have seen metallic blue recon TR engines. Underneath the plate the original number is usually removed or obscured with a small cold chisel.

                 Cheers

                             Richard

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Does anyone know about the numbering system for these engines as the difference could be attributable to one being an factory exchange unit FRE and the other Factory reconditioned FR. This could indicate a customer unit reconditioned and the other a series of reconditioned units that had the cam bearing issue which was known about. Does anyone know when the issue was first noticed in the production run of TR2? The details are interesting if not really that important.

I think I will try to use the same colour as I like it and from what has been said it seems that it isn't just a fad that someone liked blue. Afterall my car came to me like that with all it's little differences so why change it. It does serve to highlight that the original engine number changed and there was good period reason for this not that the car is not as original as it could be. 

Forensic examination with acid etch could well bring out the engine number as the Police use on stolen vehicles.

Bob,

How close is your FRE number to the original engine number if at all?

Roger,

Have you also found that the water pump housing is again a different colour from the engine i.e a light green and the oil filter bowl also although these are not the same colour. Oil filter bowl was typically a pale green as on my TR 3a engine below.1546114064_PICT1760altered.thumb.jpg.09d12480a5661b1d4a7399892c39a1fd.jpg

 

 

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Given that these are wet liner engines I am not surprised that a replacement engine has standard bores and crank journals, easy at the factory to just drop in a new crank off the production line and a new set of pistons and liners. 

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My FRE No. is 709, car commission No. is 9551, so no where near. I have no record of what the original engine No. was, but presumably it would cave been close to the commission No.

Bob

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1 hour ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

Given that these are wet liner engines I am not surprised that a replacement engine has standard bores and crank journals, easy at the factory to just drop in a new crank off the production line and a new set of pistons and liners. 

I'm afraid that isn't so, I've seen numerous FRE engines with various undersize mains and big end journals, I might even have a couple left in stock with these plates on.

Never underestimate the penny pinching that manufacturers use, why replace with a new crank that costs £30 (manufacturer cost maybe back in the 50s) when you have an engineering shop with lathes set up for crankshaft remanufacture and grinding that takes maybe an hour which at 1950s and 60s labour rates would maybe be less than a couple of quid actual labour cost ?  

Mick Richards

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Hi Bob,

On the first few hundred cars EB number , body number, Commission number were almost consecutive but my original engine number was TS236E. My other numbers were EB353 and 726352 with commission number TS430. As I understand it as production increased there was a stock of components and numbers were not as close.

No matter other than my interest in the detail I'll look for blue paint to match.

Also worth noting that if a part was required for development the in house engineering shop would maker a meal out of it. I have seen three way washer splitter machined out of a solid billet of brass, just because they could.

I hope that when I eventually strip the engine it still has the std bearing journals and the crank does not require any work, still, starting from a base std would be a bonus.

Not sure where the bearing retention screws would be, other than along the block in line with the camshaft. I don't see any. I suppose it is entirely possible that my engine was a straightforward factory replacement for a blown up one hence the FR number. Customers cars were returned for a chassis replacement  I am lead to believe.

Rgds

Rod

Edited by Rodbr

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"I hope that when I eventually strip the engine it still has the std bearing journals and the crank does not require any work, still, starting from a base std would be a bonus."

It will be a bonus unlikely to be enjoyed by anybody who currently posts on this forum Rod, given that the crank has been proved to run happily at -60 grinds on the big ends you'll have a few mishaps or miles to go before getting down to that !

Mick Richards 

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Hi Mick,

My speedo only reads 47031 so if all being well good for another few miles yet. 

I'll drop you a PM for some advice.

Cheers 

Rod

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Update!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just went out to my garage shop/store to check on my original engine to get some possible insight into the history. This is the engine that was in the car back in the early 1970's when I bought it..

I just checked my spare engines and surprise surprise  all three are in light hammer blue. So It would be a stretch to say three engines from different sources all were painted light blue by their owners.

I am concerned that without starting a full strip down to discover the internal state I am facing a machining job.

I have found that there are no locating bolts for the cam bearings which begs the question why was it rebuilt with standard pots and bearings.and not had the cam bearings bolted in.

HMMM!

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JUST TO ADD TO THE MIX , IVE HAD 4 X TR4 ENGINES ALL BLACK , A TR3A THAT HAD A RECON STANPART ENGINE FITTED WAS PAINTED LIGHT BLUE , 

 

 

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The engine 984 FR from my TR2 which was bought in 1977 by my Dad & not touched since is light blue. 

Interestingly the factory seemed to paint everything, nuts, bolts core plugs, rocker cover etc. See the attached. Ed

20190712_201321.jpg

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