Seeing Roman Britain by TR2

[DavidBee]

Well, I think it would take a while to do this properly and, in all honesty, I think it is the kind of initiative which would require us to put our heads together, to make it happen. From previous experience, you can do anything if there's enough enthusiasm and good will.

I butted in, as it were, because I spotted what I think is a golden opportunity to get several birds with one stone (these days, with our greater, collective, sensitivity towards nature, an unfortunate expression, I know).

I could do some of what it would take, yes. But not shoulder the whole thing. Depends what we want. A jaunt in the countryside, only among locals of an area, or something more ambitious.

Whenever I read classic car magazines, I am reminded how much they draw on club good will and accumulated experience. They see an opportunity and take it. Having work time to do everything.

But for something like this we would do something new: an event which has journalism (and Club PR) built in from the start, and potentially greater reach.

The organizational and PR, if it is any good, would be seamless, almost invisible, but very effective, done carefully.

The Proposal would be a story for them, a lead-in, in jargon, and a kind of an appeal, a "call to the wild", a Romantic yearning for a distant past, half-remembered as better than it ever was, idealized 1950s, I suppose.

If you look at some classic magazine features, you have the monographic ones about a rich collector and his, or her, "stable", or the trials and tribulations of a rebuild, or a deliberately set up story. For example, the story of going to the US to buy an unusual car and bring it back to Europe, with an entertaining account of all the mishaps along the way. These break the mold. Sometimes, they're too laddish, though.

By comparison, the owner interviews, often sound stiff, stilted, repetitive. And yet people and their experiences make for very interesing reads.

The Press Pack launching the initiative would be illustrated with ready-made posters, using one or both of the black and white photographs, plus Cotterell's book cover, an inspiring pull out quote of his words (if we can find some intriguing passage), and a few paragraphs to give an overall sense of it. I could work out the PR and design, possibly, and others could provide the content (bit of historical research). Then we'd need volunteers for mapping the route, and for co-ordination. A before and after piece in TRAction and, if we boxed clever, some broader coverage through classic car magazines. Sometimes an idea flies, sometimes, for whatever reason, it doesn't.

And anyway, these are just loose ideas, no more than envisaging a possibility, for now. May never happen, but, who knows? If the idea appeals, it might -- with a little help.

Edited March 6, 2020 by David Brancaleone
Adding arguments and fixing errors

[DavidBee]

DRAFT (just to visualize the idea...).

Just to be clear about this vague idea, the draft layout is nothing more than a visualization. There is no intention of speaking on behalf of the Register. It carries no authority. It is intended purely as a way of conveying a sketchy idea for an initiative, nothing more. I'm just putting it out there, just to avoid any potential misunderstanding,

David

Edited March 6, 2020 by David Brancaleone
clarification

[Lebro]

Very impressive David, lets see what the MT make of it.

Bob.

[DavidBee]

On 3/6/2020 at 10:17 PM, Lebro said:

Very impressive David, lets see what the MT make of it.

Bob.

Bob, excessive my ignorance as a neo-newbee. What is the "MT"?

Managing Team? I guess?

We can keep chipping away in the meantime, adding and refining and listening to what people want. Then, once we have a solid proposal, it can be tested and adapted, using common sense.

[Mick Forey]

On behalf of the Management Team (MT), as I have already said, I think it is a great idea. Many members across the club organise some fantastic events. Paul Hogan's coast to coast is a good example. He organised it and realised that he needed some support from the office, worked out what he needed, asked nicely and it was forthcoming. I am sure that Wayne would be very interested in the PR angle, he always likes a good story with members doing great things with their cars. David, it would be a good idea to drop him a line and explain your idea, he is very knowledgeable, he could give you some sound advise. Contact him on press@tr-register.co.uk

Mick

Edited March 11, 2020 by Mick Forey

[DavidBee]

1 hour ago, Mick Forey said:

On behalf of the Management Team (MT), as I have already said, I think it is a great idea. Many members across the club organise some fantastic events. Paul Hogan's coast to coast is a good example. He organised it and realised that he needed some support from the office, worked out what he needed, asked nicely and it was forthcoming. I am sure that Wayne would be very interested in the PR angle, he always likes a good story with members doing great things with their cars. David, it would be a good idea to drop him a line and explain your idea, he is very knowledgeable, he could give you some sound advise. Contact him on press@tr-register.co.uk

Mick

Great to hear from you again, Mick! 

Please forgive me for not knowing that your post came from the MT.

The reason is because I have only recently re-joined the TR Register (literally, a few days ago after a lapse of quarter of a century, imagine) and am understandably unfamiliar with the names of those involved in this day and age -- and new century. Once again, apologies for that. I have a lot of catching up to do.

Wayne wrote to me in response to some ideas I had earlier about festures, and I took the opportunity of suggesting what I believe might be a sound project and what the benefits might be.

I pointed him to the developing Proposal, as a basis for further planning.

(My Disclaimer was intended to make clear that I only wish to do my best to put foward a Club Event, for which the planning would work best as a group effort.

Bob and Hogues have told me about previous successful events along similar lines which I was delighted to hear about.

Also, just to say that I am reporting back in the main, developing, first post (in the final paragraph containing latest Updates).

Thanks so much Mick. Like most people, I have my strengths, but weaknesses too. All the more reason to make a joint effort. And it is very nice to know that we will be building on a lot of experience, even very recent.

Best, David

[John McCormack]

If we had enough notice we could be interested in coming over from downunder. We would be in a rental unless someone was to lend us a TR for the adventure.

[DavidBee]

12 minutes ago, John McCormack said:

If we had enough notice we could be interested in coming over from downunder. We would be in a rental unless someone was to lend us a TR for the adventure.

John, personally speaking, but this is just my opinion, I'd prefer a long lead in time. What's the rush? I'm a re-newbee, so for all I know, there is probably a full TR schedule ahead... and this has been done before, I hear, and really well!

Also, if you haven't already done so, take a look at the updated work-in-progress related post.m which is

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by David Brancaleone
Added link to be helpful

[Mick Forey]

I agree, to do these things right, the more notice the better. Do you know the dates when Cottrell actually drove the roads? How about a 50 year anniversary of that? If is was in 1953, so much the better as 2023 will be the 100 year anniversary of Triumph.

Mick

Edited March 12, 2020 by Mick Forey

[John McCormack]

I might be able to get a TR2 over. I will look into what it entails and the cost.

Edited March 13, 2020 by John McCormack

[Lebro]

On 3/12/2020 at 9:40 AM, Mick Forey said:

I agree, to do these things right, the more notice the better. Do you know the dates when Cottrell actually drove the roads? How about a 50 year anniversary of that? If is was in 1953, so much the better as 2023 will be the 100 year anniversary of Triumph.

Mick

The book was first published in September 1956, and he does say at the end that he traveled 3558 miles.

On page 272 he talks about the temple of Mithras discovered in 1954. He describes the stones as now being dismantled, & stored under a tarpauline,

so I would guess his journey was in 1955.

Bob

Since we seem to have two threads running on this topic, can they merged say into the social scene ?

Edited March 13, 2020 by Lebro

[DavidBee]

4 hours ago, Lebro said:

The book was first published in September 1956, and he does say at the end that he traveled 3558 miles.

On page 272 he talks about the temple of Mithras discovered in 1954. He describes the stones as now being dismantled, & stored under a tarpauline,

so I would guess his journey was in 1955.

Bob

Since we seem to have two threads running on this topic, can they merged say into the social scene ?

Bob,

There is a difference though.

The offshoot has become a constantly updated poece, incorporatinh ideas as they arrive. The idea is to save ourselves time in the long run, by having a Proposal developing into an action plan and doubling up as a media pack for later use. Thus, by collating new material and input, you have a viable, up-to-date project, reflecting ongoing development.

The offshoot is a mongrel. Halfway between an ever updating article/work in progress, followed by the thread. I'm a re-newbee, so just experimenting to see how to stretch what is available in terms of communication. Not an apology, just trying to explain. Any thoughts most welcome and I shall go along with them.

Edited March 13, 2020 by David Brancaleone

[John McCormack]

I'm now half way through he book. As an amateur student of UK/Roman history and archaeology such a trip, or at least part thereof, would be fantastic.

The other interesting aspect would be to travel the UK using A and lesser roads, visiting some old off the beaten track villages and pubs. 

A couple of mates and I spent a month driving around England, Wales and Scotland while our ship was alongside at Portsmouth for the Queens Silver Jubilee in 1977. We made a point then of not using motorways and had a great time. 

[PaulAnderson]

I might get that book myself.  There may be several Temples of Mithras in the country but i am aware that there’s definitely one on Hadrian’s Wall as shown on English Heritage’s web site https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/temple-of-mithras-carrawburgh-hadrians-wall/.   The B6318 follows the route of the wall, parallel to the A69 and is a great east / west drive.  I’ve been past the temple remains many times though always seem to be in a hurry so have not stopped.  You do pass Chesters Roman Fort, famous for its museum and bath house, Housesteads Roman fort, famous for its toilets, and Birdoswald Roman fort.  The site at Vindolanda that gets the most press due to the writing tablets found  is not actually associated with Hadrians wall as it predates it.  Corbridge Roman site is also a great place to visit with excellent museum.   There’s also of course many watch towers and mile forts on the wall so plenty to see.  There’s several good web sites with information but if you go to Microsoft’s Bing search engine, go to maps and then turn on Ordnance Survey maps you can see them a bit clearer.

I was given a 50 year old book on driving in Scotland last year and must get around to reading a bit more of that.  This should be a photo of my car exploring a small section of remaining bits of the old narrow roads in 2010.

 

Paul

[RobH]

In my youth I owned this book and followed it to many of the sites mentioned across the south of the country. That was only about 12 years after it was written. At the time most of the sites were pretty much as he described and fairly deserted for the most part. That was before history and archaeology became widely popular of course - most people didn't know the places were there and TV hadn't made it 'cool'.  

It is all rather different now and sometimes it's even difficult to find a parking spot. 

[PaulAnderson]

Some online photos for reference 

 

Housesteads Roman Fort

and it’s Roman toilets 

 

Chesters Roman Fort

It’s museum with collection of Roman grave stones

and it’s Roman bath house

Corbridge Roman site and museum

And there’s several more such as Wallsend ( the east end of the wall) and the fort at South Shields guarding the river 

and of course you can continue west through Carlisle, to Maryport, and down the west coast of Cumbria.  I like Ravenglass bath house which i think is Britain’s tallest bath house remains 

 

Here’s Hardknott Roman fort 

It’s on a particularly challenging road covering Hardknott and Wrynose passes through the Lake District fells. 
 

Paul

Edited April 23, 2020 by PaulAnderson

[DavidBee]

What fantastic material, Paul! Impressive to have all these. Aerial shots too! As it happens, I'm an art historian by trade, originally, and I've always considered archaelogy an integral part of it. This helps a lot to think ahead. Gives options.

The worship of Mythras was very popular in the Roman army. Not that much is known about it. But it was a form of monotheism. A few years ago I visited a Mythraic temple in Rome, several levels down from the modern street level and below three major Christian churches, the most recent being early Middle Ages.

Now you've made me curious about these places. Never been to visit Hadrian's Wall and environs.

Edited April 23, 2020 by DavidBee
Addenda

[PaulAnderson]

Photos are all other peoples from Flickr as they can easily be linked to on the forum without using up your own forum data limits.  Click on one to see their source whereupon many others can also be seen or searched for.

re parking which someone mentioned.  The temple of Mithras is free to park ( lots of space) but others are chargeable unless visiting.  Housesteads is strange in that the car park is owned by Northumberland National Parks, the land with the fort is owned by The National Trust, and the Roman remains themselves are cared for and maintained by English Heritage trust so there is a joint scheme there.   Staffed sites usually have reasonable numbers of parking spaces but they can get busy in school holidays, especially if there’s a historic event on.

Personally I’m very proud of the north east with its fabulous beaches, lovely Newcastle upon Tyne city, more castles than anywhere else etc and am somewhat pleased that Northumberland is referred to as the forgotten county, it makes it quieter and more pleasurable.  But if you’ve not been before David then please do make a visit.  Cumbria, Northumberland, Durham and even Tyne and Wear are lovely places.  Having said that, if I’m not holidaying in Cumbria (Lake District - which has some Roman forts and roads) then I’m in the west coast of Scotland where it’s even quieter.

Paul

[DavidBee]

26 minutes ago, PaulAnderson said:

But if you’ve not been before David then please do make a visit.  Cumbria, Northumberland, Durham and even Tyne and Wear are lovely places.  Having said that, if I’m not holidaying in Cumbria (Lake District - which has some Roman forts and roads) then I’m in the west coast of Scotland where it’s even quieter.

Brilliant, Paul! Worth a "LIKE", but also, it's helpful for two different projects, the Roman Run idea, and a separate, private trip, further north, to Scotland. 

The real challenge for us would be numbers. One thing is the logistics and parking for, say, thirty or so cars, quite another if we had in mind something much bigger.

I guess one would have to think in terms of clusters of inns, and lodging places with suitable parking. Then you could offer a Plan A and a Plan B, contingency plan for very large group, or the norm, the smaller group? I'm out of my depth, here, just speculating.

Also, I found the account of a professional archaelogist giving talks along the way very encouraging and worth repeating.

I remember gazing out to views of empty meadows in Dwynefor Park, near Llandeilo, and watching the orginal Roman fort reappear out of nowhere, to the sound of horse carts, herders, foot troops, people coming and going through the gate, as our archaelogist described everyday life, based on finds and background knowledge.

[John McCormack]

I am seriously keen to participate in any Roman run. Please keep us informed well ahead, flights from Australia need booking early.

[DavidBee]

1 hour ago, John McCormack said:

I am seriously keen to participate in any Roman run. Please keep us informed well ahead, flights from Australia need booking early.

I think it's worth doing well. Many members have joined in before I ever thought of it and have organized several runs of this kind. And, what's more, these people have years of experience.

What could be added this time with the benefit of Wayne's expert advice and guidance, would be a "reaching out" to new, non members, interested in combining the classic car side with archaeology and scenic tours: 3 elements, plus a way of promoting the Club.

[John McCormack]

1 hour ago, DavidBee said:

I think it's worth doing well. Many members have joined in before I ever thought of it and have organized several runs of this kind. And, what's more, these people have years of experience.

What could be added this time with the benefit of Wayne's expert advice and guidance, would be a "reaching out" to new, non members, interested in combining the classic car side with archaeology and scenic tours: 3 elements, plus a way of promoting the Club.

G'day David, I see you are in Ireland. My wife and I have had the pleasure of being hosted by Patrick McMahon for a night in Temple Bar Dublin and hosting him and his partner here in Sydney. This international group has some great benefits.

[DavidBee]

1 hour ago, John McCormack said:

G'day David, I see you are in Ireland. My wife and I have had the pleasure of being hosted by Patrick McMahon for a night in Temple Bar Dublin and hosting him and his partner here in Sydney. This international group has some great benefits.

Yes John, I remember Pat telling me about his adventurous trip. Quite a way away. I "came over" only once years ago, just to Melbourne. But it was something like being in 19th century Imperial Russia. I was in Melbourne at Easter within the devout Russian Orthodox community. We stayed with my then girlfriend's mum. So I spent all my time in and out of church! A real eye-opener, and quite refreshing for a hardened, somewhat cynical, Italian Catholic.

Should I ever return, I would definitely break the journey, staying several days half way.

On our return, my then TR2 OGB 800 was waiting at Heathrow. Jet-lagged as we were, even with the top down, our journey to Oxford took hoyrs: every 15 minutes I would have to stop and sleep for an hour or so...

I was also the person who enquired after Jan Pierce's TR2. I was tempted, but not swayed, having done my sums. My issue was how much would it cost including fettling and shipping and would the end result match KST 277?

As to the topic, I agree entirely. It helps that I was originally in the TR Register when I lived and worked in the UK, so I already felt part of it once before. That said, I find the Forum exceptional and a surprising way to stay in touch and keep learning about these amazing cars.

It can be used as a resource, but also as a thinking together space for planning, and has several more functions besides.

[PaulAnderson]

David,

by chance this article https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/mithras-0013010 on the temple of Mithras came up in the Apple News App on my iPad today. 

my copy of the book ‘Seeing Roman Britain’ has also now arrived.

Paul

[John McCormack]

Finished the book. My wife and I have visited many of the sites and want to get to the ones we missed. I can see a UK trip coming up when the lockdowns end.