Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi Mick,

I do see your point,but still, I would not upgrade my brakes, fit roll-cage or modernize  my old cars, the get me home tire being my exception. And I think you guys need some sort of vehicle inspection. Hey Man, this is red neck Alberta, we need nothing and can drive whatever we want, the fact that there is no traffic here, except for the two main cities, helps big time. So I do understand that you might be more concerned with the legal issues.

Yves

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 from me for Yves

 

edit, let me share some of my thoughts with you:

Why do we need signs like "slippery when wet", "mind your steps" or "caution hot (drink)".

And confirmations of car producers for small spare tyres?

This is because "no one" wants to be responsible for his own faults.

To fast comes the question "who is responsible for this? (my own misstake)".

This is the reason for those overregulation. Simply said "the idiots rule".

At Germany we have the therminus of "der gesunde Menschenverstand", stranslated "healthy human thinking".

And with this I can do a lot of things realising that I am resonsable for my own doing AND for others.

For example: I have the cars boot full with tools and parts and only space for a small spare tyre.

This can bring me out of a inconvenient or dangerous situation AND it is my responsibility to drive not too fast and not to fare with this small tyre.

An idiot will drive the rest of his holiday like this without realising his responsibility.

And sorry, there are a lot of idiots out there.

And they are lovely genius!

And this is the reason for signs like "caution hot (drink)"

 

Edited by Z320
My bad english (still bad)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mick

A clear explanation but one clarification please. For a TR does the spare wheel have to be both the same dimensions as those on the car and type? So I have minilite replicas on the 4 corners of my 3A. Does the spare have to be the same minilite replica or will a steel wheel of the same dimensions as the minilites with the same tyre be acceptable?

Thanks

Miles 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short answer...it isn't specified. 

For myself if the different wheel still allows the tyre to be presented to the road in the same way, ie: the offset,width and dia is the same then as long as the tyre is the same construction ie: it's a radial if the other 3 are, and with the same dimensions and profile ie: 165 80 profile or whatever then the only other difference is the tyre compound, and happy days that is not specified. So amongst 3 Michelins you could have a Goodyear as the other wheel, but as a non responsible layman I don't think any reasonable person would or could object to such a mix.

In the event of an accident a forensic examination would obviously note it, but as the wheel and tyre would be in good condition and legal, I can't see any comebacks because the Wheel and tyre would pass an MOT as being roadworthy.

Mick Richards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Yep, that's about the response whenever this subject comes up, it's just too inconvenient to specify or carry the correct size wheel...what the chassis flexes too much, well I reckon a small engineering project will sort that out...oh and vented discs complete with 4 pot calipers..and of course adding a second braking circuit is only a small inconvenience and all this is for an increase in car safety...right ? But not carrying the correct sized spare wheel ? especially when an illegal space saver is normally red with a sticker on and any rookie cop who can be bothered is thinking "did they have space savers in 1959" ?

As always it's the owners choice what he puts on his car, but try googling the "Selby Train crash" if you want a nightmare scenario, and then think having caused multiple fatalities and over £22 million GBP damage was the 8 years imprisonment too hard a sentence ? Now this driver didn't have illegal tyres or any engineering fails on his outfit and just fell asleep after foolishly not sleeping before his journey, but it illustrates just how " get what you can afford" can cost you more than your home.

Mick Richards

Mick,

I've been banging on about this for years, save your time and energy, there are none so deaf as those who will not listen.

John.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Short answer...it isn't specified. 

For myself if the different wheel still allows the tyre to be presented to the road in the same way, ie: the offset,width and dia is the same then as long as the tyre is the same construction ie: it's a radial if the other 3 are, and with the same dimensions and profile ie: 165 80 profile or whatever then the only other difference is the tyre compound, and happy days that is not specified. So amongst 3 Michelins you could have a Goodyear as the other wheel, but as a non responsible layman I don't think any reasonable person would or could object to such a mix.

In the event of an accident a forensic examination would obviously note it, but as the wheel and tyre would be in good condition and legal, I can't see any comebacks because the Wheel and tyre would pass an MOT as being roadworthy.

Mick Richards

Mick

Thanks for those further thoughts. 

Miles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, John Morrison said:

Mick,

I've been banging on about this for years, save your time and energy, there are none so deaf as those who will not listen.

John.

Apologies gents, but please don't forget that any website has an ongoing turn-over of members, and so..  some of us are relatively new to the scene.  Aside from which regulations have changed over the years. 

But if it is any consolation,  as a newbie myself - I am presently working through the past 15 years (287 pages) of the TR4 / 4A forum  ..to read the answers to many questions I have.. as well as others I didn't know to ask.  This ought to save those who are much more experienced than I from addressing the same old issues every three months. 

I also very frequently use the 'Like'  and  'Thank You' button ..in appreciation of the experience &/or wisdom posted.  And I follow members like Mike (and various others) because I recognise that he / they not only have something worthwhile to add, but are also kind enough to explain the reasons why.   Following such members of course carries me to parts of the forum specific to different models, and that too is interesting.   

Of course you may be  banging on  about this or that,  but a forum is after all a place of discussion, and not necessarily absolute agreement.  If every one of us conformed then we'd be a pretty dull bunch.  As it is, one of the things I particularly like about Triumph cars (all models) is that so many owners are perfectly happy to individualise them.  The vehicle's shortcomings (whether by design or because of age) are recognised and through 'general consensus' solutions (modifications ) are accepted.  

But as I see it ; spare wheels and their tyres is an oddball because so many TR's are fitted with non-original to road use tyres anyway. And of course a broad diversity of wheels ..which were never approved by Triumph.   Bill P.'s original post has been answered, and he made the decision to buy a smaller section tyre for occasional use as a spare.  If I understand correctly,  Mick clarifies that its use would be equally outside C&U regs as having a Volvo wheel and tyre.  He continues to explain ; the wheel is not the (C&U) issue but its offset, along with tyre construction, compound, tread pattern and size are.  And law being black n' white implies there is not 'almost right' and 'only just wrong' !

Like keeping to the speed limit and/or so many things in life, we each make our own responsible choices  ..and face the consequences.  So, the same old questions are a means to acquiring knowledge  and to making an informed decision ..not just idle banter.    I for one am most appreciative of Mick ..and so many others, who take their time to share real experiences of what works and what does not, along with aspects of the motor trade, the law, and insights into the secretive world of insurance.

I and very many silent types   Thank You.  

Peter.

p.s. My apologies to Bill for this reply being a little off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgive me, I realized I did not use the correct word.

If I ever will buy and use a small Volvo "spare trye" I will use it as an emergency trye.

And this is what it is made for by Volvo and other producers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I sometimes forget that non industry vehicle users are unaware of the importance of the Whole Vehicle Type Approval scheme.

The vehicle manufacturers (includes Bus, truck and other manufacturers also) are compelled to make vehicles that comply to the same standards as certificated (by themselves) with the WVTA body. This means that EVERY component that is used on a vehicle build and especially those that have ANY influence or change the operating dynamics of vehicles are identified and a documented supply process established so that a change in the vehicle specification that may cause it to have an accident or exceed emissions (ho ho, see where this is going) can be traced back and the manufacturer prosecuted and fined large sums of money.

This DOESN'T mean that a vehicle that has been tested by a manufacturer to an identified and logged spec (every specification difference has to be tested individually (at considerable cost to the manufacturer for every model, millions are spent every year just testing models to comply) for every change...every small insignificant piffling change that may cause a change in the vehicle performance cannot be made without being tested, approved and the identity of responsibility approved , ie the front brake calipers may be changed from a 2 piston to a 4 piston caliper (even in the aftermarket) BUT that change has to be logged and a traceable system put in place so that change can be identified and more especially the supplier of the callipers then has to pick up the responsibility legal and fiduciary for their operation and efficiency on that model. 

With a space saver spare wheel the car manufacturer has to underwrite the space saver and complete and submit a varied number of tests that show that even with the space saver fitted the vehicle can achieve a required level of stopping power and cope and react to a certain degree of steering input, this means the tyre normally has a stickier compound to cope with the vehicle weight, handling dynamics (sportier or median) and the reduced tyre width and reduced match of rolling circumference (it may be 3 or 4% or more different from the other tyres which compromises them all) and still be regarded as safe for the public road use. Now on a Ford, Renault, Volvo and any number of other manufacturers they can do this, their cars are built the same way (every time, that's what WVTA is for) and what's more theses companies have financial clout of billions of Pounds, Dollars, Yen or whatever. So that if one of their research engineers has a bad day and allows a mechanical change to a car that cause a catastrophic crash of the magnitude of the aforementioned Selby Train crash, the manufacturer and more especially their public liability insurance will pick up the enormous and to us small people unimaginable costs that would wipe out your savings, your house value, your yearly salary if you were to live 500 years and cause you to forfeit the lives of your firstborn to try to ameliorate the losses. 

Why would anybody think that buying a Renault space saver which has NOT had any testing carried out on it on a TR would be allowed ? and that your insurance company would not run away gibbering when they saw the scale of costs they would be required to adopt based upon a phone call to the office junior who has a pre prepared script that says..."yes we accept space saver tyres" when neither he nor the firm, nor their underwriters have evaluated the risk ? 

As outlined above TRs were never WVTA having Triumph gone out of business years before, so without being able to apply the "we'll blame the manufacturers" gambit the applicable legislation they will apply is British Construction and Use (C&U) for vehicles which says (paraphrasing) "the vehicle will have tyres of the same type on both sides of the car". When the forensic checks confirm your space saver is obviously different to the other tyres the full responsibility will then be applied to you and your resources.

That's the risk you take when using a non approved space saver wheel and tyre, maybe that's the reason I'm scared, I've seen what forces will be applied against anybody who contravenes these laws, I don't.

Mick Richards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Mick,

I'm afraid I'm nagging, but allow me to please you for a further quotation:

- my new steering rack, well known GB supplier, producer not known, no certificate 

- my new vertikal links and lower bracket on the front axle, well known German supplier, producer not known, no certificate

- my new rear IRS hub assemblies from Goodparts, but no certificate 

- my new rear brake drums,.....

Legal or not? Dangerous or trustable?

Thanks in advance 

Marco

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All those TR item will be legal because they have no requirement to meet Whole Vehicle Type Approval certification because any TR has not been made with WVTA in force.

As for the being dangerous or trustworthy in their making and are they good quality ? that can only be established by somebody using them and either measuring known dimensions or comparing against existing components. If they are poor quality they can be reported to the TR Register PQI initiative for further investigation.

What they definitely are not is evidence that if you use any and all of them and they fail in use that you have done something illegal...because you have not. If any of those components were to fail and cause major damage to cars or infrastructure or even kill somebody, as long as they were fitted correctly the supplying wholesaler or retailer who sold them to you would be liable and his public liability insurance would pick up the bill.

If on the other hand in the UK if you used a Volvo space saver on a TR that hasn't been WVTA certificated (can't be) which means the car then reverts to C&U standards (same tyre size and type required on either side of the car) and suffered a blow out causing your car to rollover and land inverted upon a film star and  his nice wife travelling the other way in a convertible immediately killing them both and leaving 3 young children, then you would have been using the car illegally and would be in deep do do. When forensically examined the odd wheel and tyre would be spotted and the insurance underwriters having spotted a way out would be claiming you incurred a risk that you hadn't told it and looking NOT to pay out anybody, either you or the incoming claims from Mr Film stars dependents and studio with a film half made.

See the difference. ? If you want to make this simple just show these postings to your wife and ask her for her opinion as what you should do...lol.

Mick Richards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mick for your quotation about new spare parts, 

this was a point I worried from time to time.

The german name for something like the small Volvo spare tyre is "Notrad", what is to translate with "emergency wheel".

I promise I will never mention it.

Ciao, Marco

Edited by Z320

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so what about if you have 165/80/15 tyres on all 5 rims, but the 4 on the car are 4½" rims (TR5), & the spare is 4" (TR3).

Bob.

(on a TR3)

Edited by Lebro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please familiarise yourself with our Terms and Conditions. By using this site, you agree to the following: Terms of Use.