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Some time ago I bought a "pair" of 60's original Lucas spot lamps off the net.  Very shiny they were and satisfied, I put them away to fit later in the TR4 restoration.  Now is later, so I got them out to find that I think one is a spot lamp and the other may be a fog lamp, as the metal shielding between bulb and glass are opposite (one above the bulb, the other below).  The glass unit will only sit in the lamp one way.  Both lamps are marked Lucas SFT576.

Probably a stupid question but I'll put it it out there anyway

Was it ever a thing back in the day to fit one spot and one fog lamp as a "pair" to the front of the car to supplement the standard lighting, or have I been sold an odd pair?

Not the end of the world as Holden sell replacement glazed units to fit these lamps, I could get a pair to match.

Any thoughts or knowledge?

Rob

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I believe in period it was quite common to have one of each. 

 

Some 4 owners even had 2 fogs  and a central spot/driving lamp.  

But please await comment from the gurus. 

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Yes Rob, I was ‘reliably’ informed that it was a common option during the 50s/60s, but does then pose the question as to how you would wire them - both on the same switch/ individual switches/linked to main beam or numerous other combinations. I don’t know the legal requirements , but I expect there is room for some exemption from the strict EU regulations that are no doubt in place on all European vehicles.

Enjoyable quandary.

Chris

 

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Hey Rob,

I would suggest that if both have "lenses" (i.e. not pure, clear glass) then both are Fog lamps, which the number SFT would agree with; spot lamps have clear glass and are nomally number SLR.

In Stan's photo above on his lovely pale blue 3A, the one on the left as we look at it is a Fog lamp, the other is a plain-glass spot lamp.

I do not know enough about the metal shielding and how it works within the lamp, but I'd be wondering if one of them was wrong - of course the problem is...which one??

I'd go back to the supplier, if possible, to check - if it was a S/H purchse from eBay or the like, I'd go to maybe Holden or someone for advice on the shields.

FWIW, here's a picture of my TR4 rally car with two of each ;-)

Cheers,

Tim

DSC_0534_LRes.jpg

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Definitely standard practice back in the day to have one of each, if fitted now they do need to come on together as your not allowed a single one at one time.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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Thank you Gurus,

That's just about covered all my question and more.  Yes they were from eBay, but happily I live just a few miles from Holden so will pop in and check what new lenses they have.

Think I'll go for the fog and spot combination and wire to an auxiliary switch under the dash with relays.

Fantastic, inspiring pictures of your cars, mine will be on the road this summer when I've finished the 4 year build from the basket case I started with

Many Thanks all,

Rob

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Hi Rob,

I know from personal experience of the "Motoring 60s" that a "Spot" and "Fog" were usually fitted together (if you could afford it) - and I have a Lucas Silver Sabre/Silver Lance in a shoebox somewhere to prove it!

Cheers

Geoff

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To be a bit of a devil's advocate Stuart, how does that square with the modern idea of a single spot light coming on when you go round a corner. 

Is it a spot light or a ddr (dangerous driving light) that goes off when the indicator on the same side is flashing ?

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1 hour ago, duncan said:

To be a bit of a devil's advocate Stuart, how does that square with the modern idea of a single spot light coming on when you go round a corner. 

Is it a spot light or a ddr (dangerous driving light) that goes off when the indicator on the same side is flashing ?

I dont quite understand how they are legal either, best explanation I can find is they are legal under EU regs

Stuart.

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Just a few bits of advice fitting spot and fog lamps. There are regulations governing both their positioning and operation to be aware of in the UK. The first 3 lines below are from Halfords website regarding fog lamps

When fitting a pair of fog lamps you should obey the following legal requirements:

Fog lamps should be positioned symmetrically; the same height from the road and the same distance from the sides of the vehicle.

The lamps should be fitted so that their outer edges are no more than 400mm from the outer edge of the car. Maximum height above ground 1200mm.

Also:

Front and rear fog lamps are permitted to operate independently of any other lamps or ignition systems.

And:

Spotlights should go off when you dip the headlights (i.e. only operate when main beam lights are on) So wire them via a switched circuit via a relay connected to the main beam circuit.

Rear fog light lenses should be marked with the letter F if they are genuine rear fog lenses.

I remember having some problems working out where to fit 2 spots and 2 fogs on the front of my TR several years ago. I remember a lot of measuring to make their positions street legal. If I find the original info I'll post it. I can switch on the fog lights when the sidelights are on (i.e. independent of the headlights). The spotlights however only operate on main beam via the dip switch.

Keith

 

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Thanks Keith,

In your opinion, do modern regs concerning the siting of fog lamps, spot lamps, etc. apply equally to new and our older classic cars? 

Wouldn't our cars be subject to the regulations that applied at the time the car was made / registered?  This, I think is the standard for other regulations, e.g. seatbelts, emissions, etc.

Good point you make re wiring the lamps through the high beam circuit.  I'm planning to buy Moss's relay kit (2 relays included).  Would this be sufficient to wire the original high and low beam lights and also add the spot and fog light, assuming they're wired together as a pair?

Rob

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Hello Rob

If the lights were fitted as standard at time of manufacture then you are right that new regs would not apply. Iain's photo of the 1957 3A shows a car that would be ok because it was like that in 1957. However not sure how the rules are applied if you fit them today. I decided to try to follow current regs because I was not sure at the time how the rules would be applied or interpreted if stopped by police or involved in an accident. A bit like if your house has old wiring or fuse box - it's ok unless you change it - then you have to follow latest standards. The problem for you will not be the positioning of a couple of lights which should be easy to comply with (equal height and no more than 400mm from the edge of the car. The difficulty will be wiring because the spot must only be illuminated when high beam is on and the fog can be wired so it can come on when just sidelights are on (although with just the one I would wire the fog to be able to come on only when the headlights are on so that you don't have the "cyclops" effect for oncoming traffic.) Personally I would go for either spots or fogs or fit 2 of each as Tim Burgess (and I ) have done - it is simpler. 

I have one relay for high beam and one for low beam on the headlights. I have another relay for the spots and a further relay for the fogs (4 relays in all). This arrangement means the switches only see low voltage. The lamps get the full voltage and are brighter as a result. I still use sealed beam headlamps which are fine with this arrangement.

Your comment re seatbelts is a similar situation. Old cars that had no seatbelts do not need to fit them However there is a cut off date for cars to have them fitted. If you fit seat belts to an early TR then they should be fitted correctly and be working or they will fail the MOT. I have retro fitted seat belts and they are checked at the MOT (but my car doesn't need an MOT just to complicate things - I still have it checked because I think it is an independent check of roadworthiness that might be helpful with the insurance company).

Good luck

Keith

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Thanks Keith,

Much food for thought.

I'm full square with you on getting the car MOT'd (or equivalent check) whether it is required or not.  The best of us will miss something, so always best to have an independent and critical eye look over the car at least once a year.  Garages also have lifts to check underneath.

Cheers,

Rob

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In the 1940s and 1950s, when I was a youngster, every car was equipped with a dynamo and drivers would minimise their use of lights, even by driving on sidelights when headlights should have been used!  Most heating was by coal fires and these were not smokeless, with the consequence that smog was pretty prevalent in winter, particularly in built-up areas. I can recall cycling the 9 miles to and from work in Chiswick in a period of some 10 days of appalling smog, when I was moving faster than the cars – but on arrival at work, I put my head under a tap and watched this foul, black mess pour down the sink!

In such conditions, a foglamp would be used on its own, pointing to the left in an attempt to locate the side of the road – and this was perfectly legal then.  The spotlamp, if fitted, would be used with headlights when driving fast in good conditions.

Regardless of whether such an arrangement might be legal now on a vehicle built in the 1950s, I wouldn’t dream of powering just one of those extra lights on its own – too dangerous.  The problem is that if one is driving in fog, this means that one needs the headlamps on dipped beam (else the reflection from the water droplets if on full beam reduces visibility to near zero) and a PAIR of foglamps illuminated and pointing downwards.

For driving in good conditions, one needs a pair of spotlamps to be illuminated solely when one is driving with headlamps on full beam – if the pair of foglamps were illuminated as well, that would be OK, although one might need to consider the current being consumed if a dynamo is fitted.

So, for driving in all conditions, one needs a pair of spotlamps and a pair of foglamps, much as Toronto Tim has them.

And an MOT - most definitely YES!

 

Ian Cornish
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Ah Ian

Those nostalgic days of the pea soup fog/smog and the smell of the soot in the air. Driving along with just the foglights on with the driver's head out of the window looking for the centre line of the road and the passenger looking out of the nearside window trying to see the kerb. Driving in Europe I fit the amber beam deflectors to the headlights. Before I fitted the Moss relay kit this reduced the light output to a few candle power. So I fitted fog and spot lights to the car. After fitting the relay kit I was amazed at the difference to the light output of the headlamps so I rarely ever need to use either the spots or fogs now. I still power all this from a dynamo - ok as long as you switch off the heater!

At the back I have fitted an LED strip that sticks to the back Surrey window at the top centre. This is connected to the brake light circuit so the tailgaters can see when I'm braking. 

As you say Ian, driving in the 50's 60's was quite a different experience and like you I wouldn't want to have just one spot or one fog light these days. Mind you there are plenty of cars out there on the roads with only one headlamp working. During one journey of 1/2 hour recently I counted nine of these cyclops. Maybe because the owners can't work out how to replace the bulbs on a modern car or maybe because even if they are replaced the onboard computer says "No - visit your dealer to have the system reset.'

Keith

:(

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