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Vertical link/Trunnion. Whats acceptable?


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Hi all

Happy New Year.

As ever two days in and another question after trying a few hours of searching for the definitive answers and getting more confused.

I'm at the stage of rebuilding the front suspension using super pro bushes all round which I've used many times before in other cars. The top and bottom arms are on the chassis and two new trunnion's in place as it seemed sensible and fitted per supro instructions which omits a lot of the OEM parts. They all move well with no stiction after removing some excess cast material from the outside of the wish bone eyes which was fouling the captive bolts on the new chassis brackets (The captive flange was much thicker than the OEM ones).

Now trunnions are new to me. The last time I had anything to do with them was helping my dad grease them on our Morris Traveller 40 years ago!

The current vertical links have no corrosion to the treads which look square and just some very light scoring to one of the plain part of the stem. So I was planning on reusing them. But how do you fit them correctly?

1) I have fitted the super pro seals to the links (which seem a poorer fit to the rubber OEM version) and screwed the link into the trunnion as a dry test fit but how far do you go? They will bottom out but squash the seals do you then loosen so the axle shaft is pointing the right way or is there a set number of turns back?

2) Once together there is very slight up/down play and about 1mm side to side is this acceptable?

3) The steering stops are eccentric but I've no reference as to their correct position. Bigger lobe at 12 o'clock looking from the wheel in a straight ahead position?

Any advice much appreciated.

Andy

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Hi Andy,

the steering eccentric bushes - have them fitted in pointing the same way.  EG both wheels are limited in allowing the front of the tyre moving too far in..

How much eccentric - enough to stop the wheel hub rim hitting anything.

The vertical link must have corrosion free threads and the p[lain section above. They fracture at the interface of the thread and the plain shank.

Looking at the silhouette of the thread they must be uniform on both the top & bottom face of the thread.  A flat top is good.

Remember these links and usually the stub axles are 50 years old now - begin to worry.

As for fitting. Wind the trunnion fully in and then back out one turn - they only turn muchly less than 90' so perhaps undo less than one turn.

 

Roger

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Thanks for the pointers Rodger 

The stub axles were scored and have both being replaced. Nice job getting them out.

The VL look younger than 50 (like me!) and the suspension has been apart before give the mixture of odd fasteners so might have been replaced. There is no rust on any parts of the treads or plain surface and there was lots of fresh looking grease inside. 

My concern once fitted as you suggest is how much up/down side/side play would be deemed acceptable?  New ones aren't cheap and there seems to be some issues around the quality.

Cheers

Andy

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Hi Andy,

there will always be some play in the trunnion/VL because it is a screw fit and not tightened up.

When fitted the suspension spring will load the play one way and the weight of the car will load it the other.

So in general it will always sit in one direction with no play. Perhaps during lift-off over a humpback bridge may send the play the other way.

 

The VL's supplied by Moss are good. I have a new pair and they are working well.

 I can't imagine there are too many workshops spewing these things out.

 

Roger

 

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I suppose I cold take mine to moss with the trunions and compare them to new in terms of fit/play.

Prices seem to vary between £159 from two, 129 and 105 from the usual suspects so there mus be at least a couple of suppliers I would prefer UK made parts over Chinese knock offs. Don't suppose you know where Moss source from? 

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Hi Andy,

                do not know country of origin although Moss have got a number of overseas suppliers.  However that shouldn't affect quality  all things being equal.

The only dodgy one that I have seen was on the Club TRiumph forum about three/four years ago the hols for the stub axle was offset.

 

Roger

 

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Hi Rodger/all 

Checked my links against some new ones with my new trunions today nothing in it so went with mine. Mind you still spent some coin on other needed bits!

Put one side of the front suspension together. Before the spring was fitted everything was nice and free as expected after the tension was taken off its very difficult to rotate the link am I right in thinking that once the chassis is loaded that things will free up or am I missing something?

Just had a thought that I might have been supplied the wrong front springs so I checked them against the old ones. Differences as follows;

1) Same height but 8 coils on new 7 on old. Same internal diameter.

2) The wire gauge is heavier on the new compared to old.

3) Old springs are lighter and seem slightly softer on compression.

The new springs are from Rimmers and have a label stating "front standard spring"

Have I got the right springs??

Thanks

Andy   

Edited by PodOne
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The spring will load every thing up. After all it’s trying desperately to force it all apart to escape.

The new springs should be lighter as they are Silicon Chrome Steel.

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Andy,

regarding your heavy steering (turning):

I had the same and found out the new shocks were a bit longer than the originals. With front wheels in the air, this resulted in the trunnions hitting the springpad since the front shocks limit the travel. There is a post on here from 1-2 years ago. There was (is?) a batch of too long  shocks on the market, others on this forum had the same issue. Worth checking.

Regards,

Waldi

Edited:

i said springs but meant shocks, sorry for the confusion

Edited by Waldi
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There is much scrap in the market, especially the ball joints are terrible.

Often those in the steering do not have the cutouts to allow the full travel of the suspension, when the car is lifted.

The steering will become heavy and bends when turned.

 

Any play in the vertical link will makes noise. If there is no corrosion in most cases the brass item ist the culprit.

The Cheap Charlys in China learned to print Stanpart on the brass to sell it better!

A first test is to fit the limiter to the top of the brass and turn the axle fully to left and right.

Wheels must be on the ground. When the trunnion hits the limiter the brass may show its play by moving a bit away from the trunnion!

 

I fitted a new rack and pinion that was set far to strong making steering heavy.

Had to loosen the big nut that it turns easier. The steering should go back after cornering just by itself and do that quickly.

Otherwise there is a problem in the front axle that should be found and not tolerated.

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Hi all

20 hours ago, DaveN said:

The spring will load every thing up. After all it’s trying desperately to force it all apart to escape.

The new springs should be lighter as they are Silicon Chrome Steel.

Dave it would seem so and makes sense. The springs are from Rimmers who have confirmed they are "std" ones but I would say they are slightly heavier. But then the old ones may not be the original and a mixed pair hence me swapping them out while rebuilding the front suspension.

 

12 hours ago, Waldi said:

I had the same and found out the new shocks were a bit longer than the originals. With front wheels in the air, this resulted in the trunnions hitting the springpad since the front shocks limit the travel. There is a post on here from 1-2 years ago. There was (is?) a batch of too long springs on the market, others on this forum had the same issue. Worth checking.

Waldi the new springs measure the same to the old so it would seem they are the correct length. Take your point re the shock lengths as I can't bolt on the steering stop to the trunnion because its hitting the spring pan. 

 

11 hours ago, TriumphV8 said:

Any play in the vertical link will makes noise. If there is no corrosion in most cases the brass item ist the culprit.

The Cheap Charlys in China learned to print Stanpart on the brass to sell it better!

A first test is to fit the limiter to the top of the brass and turn the axle fully to left and right.

Wheels must be on the ground. When the trunnion hits the limiter the brass may show its play by moving a bit away from the trunnion!

 

I fitted a new rack and pinion that was set far to strong making steering heavy.

Had to loosen the big nut that it turns easier. The steering should go back after cornering just by itself and do that quickly.

Otherwise there is a problem in the front axle that should be found and not tolerated.

Andreas the trunnions/springs are from Rimmers so hopefully a good spec and manufacture and not a cheapie knock off. Will have to wait to fit the limiter once the chassis is loaded and on her wheels in about 3 years at my work rate! I also need a new rack I'll keep a look out with regard to how easy it moves.

Some recommend reconditioning the old OEM rack but parts seem limited or unavailable ie RHD pinions and mine sounds like a box of spanners. Anyone any pointers as to which suppliers do the best new ones or a source of parts to refurbish mine and which parts are best replaced.

After sleeping on it and reading everyone's posts I think it may simply be as Waldi says and I will not know until she is back on her wheels 

Thanks all

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Hi Andy,

are your shocks “old” or new ones?

In my post(1 or 2 years ago) I measured the correct and wrong lengths.

I raised a PQI and the vendors were contacted by Roger, so there should not be any wrong (too long) shocks at these suppliers.

If the MOT is done with wheels in the air, this will be a failure.

Regards,

Waldi

Edited by Waldi
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Hi Waldi,

    just to clarify what went on with these dampers.

The OEM damper should be 300mm long (I assume that is the fully compressed length)

The dampers causing concern where 330mm long.

At no point was the length requested to be made longer - it appears to have just happened at some point.

TRShop removed all their stock and threw them in the bin.

Moss investigated their stock and found they had quite a few. They considered there was not a problem and they remained in stock.

Bearing in mind these are the bog standard dampers and turn over of sales is slow as most people go for the better quality damper *Koni/Spax etc)

Many of the after market dampers are also 330mm long !!!!

The MOT does not require the wheels to be off the ground at any time whilst operating the steering.

 

There was another concern at the same time.  Some of the aftermarket upper ball joints had/have limited deflection from the vertical.

At the end of the deflection it causes the VL to lean over and cause the TRunnion to lock up.

So one needs to ensure that the whole system works - not just the damper or the upper ball joint.

 

Sadly we have no power over the suppliers to remove stock that may have a problem. We have highlighted it and that's as far as we can go.

 

Roger

 

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Hi Both thanks for the further posts.

Just measured the new shocks they are 285 mm from the bottom of the eye to the top of the threaded piston when fully compressed so shorter than 300/330! Same travel as the bolted up fine.

The new springs are 261 mm which is correct for a std spring?

All the wishbones and the trunnion/vertical links moved well with no restriction prior to fitting the spring if i compress the spring in situ the trunnion/link will move which given the comments around the top ball joints it seems these are the issue. I have two new old stock ones which I will fit to one side and see if that makes any difference.

I may well change the shocks once I have driven the car for a while as its very much a personal choice with regard to the ride you want to create and in the past I wasted a lot of time and money trying various combinations in other cars so keeping it std warts and all seems a good place to start.

Andy

EDIT I was wrong the new shorter 285 mm shocks bolted up fine because they have more travel on full extension than the old ones; Old 310 mm New 340 mm this is allowing the spring to decompress by around 30 mm jamming the trunnion against the spring pan and jamming the links rotation it may also be affecting the top ball joint.

I wonder if Rimmers are aware of the issue I don't get if you are offering spares why they can't get the basic dimensions right even some of the bolts have been too long.    

Edited by PodOne
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Hi Andy,

330 mm length when fully extended is wrong, it should be around 300 mm.

I’m not surprised Rimmers did sell you these as Richard Young (also on this forum) brought this exact issue to the attention of Rimmers and they did not see a problem (a poor attitude to me) where for example TR Shop indicated to bin their stock (which is a positive and responsible attitude).

Search for an old post called Trunnions...     (with 3 dots) which was started by Richard  Dec 10, 2016.

This post contains all relevant info.

good luck,

Waldi

 

Here is the link:

 

Edited by Waldi
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9 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi Andy,

330 mm length when fully extended is wrong, it should be around 300 mm.

I’m not surprised Rimmers did sell you these as Richard Young (also on this forum) brought this exact issue to the attention of Rimmers and they did not see a problem (a poor attitude to me) where for example TR Shop indicated to bin their stock (which is a positive and responsible attitude).

Search for an old post called Trunnions...     (with 3 dots) which was started by Richard  Dec 10, 2016.

This post contains all relevant info.

good luck,

Waldi

 

Here is the link:

 

Hi Waldi 

Many thanks for the link I've read it through and its exactly the issue I have.

Fitted the ARB made no difference still everything jammed up. As said this is a serious safety issue which it seems Rimmers (and others?) don't recognise and I would not be surprised if someone has had a serious accident or at least there is one waiting to happen as they are still selling them. Given own cars are MOT exempt there will be some driving around with suspension damage and cracked chassis/turrets etc. Only takes one police accident investigation and the the cause tracked to the shocks and the suppliers are going to have some tough questions and a possible damages claims to deal with esp when its been a known issue amongst the TR community.

I've e mailed Rimmers last night basically outlining again what was said by Richard and they requested the part numbers today which I have sent tonight. I will keep all informed. Just hope others read this post and check or have checked what they are driving around on.

Andy

 

 

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Hi Andy,

Glad I could be of help.

I understand that a vendor that stocks thousands of parts for many makes/ types of cars now and then sells an item that is not right, but if they then get feedback from a customer AND the TR Register (through the PQI process) and ignore that, this is disappointing (at least).

I returned my wrong shocks and bought Koni’s, they were fine.

Best regards,

Waldi

 

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Hi Andy. I had the same issue as above and the Richard Young post helped me a lot. 

I sent the “standard” shocks that were too long back, and bought some Spax, which were shorter when fully extended. I found that when the car was on stands (with no shocks in) the steering was stiff and the trunnions fouled the spring pad slightly. I reasoned this was because it was overextended given no shocks in place to limit travel  

However, when off the stands and loaded, I then fitted the shorter shocks and the steering freed up - both on the ground and when on stands. 

Hope this helps. 

Mark

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Thanks all

Suspect I will end up having to upgrade the shocks to resolve this.

There would seem to be a need for std shocks with the right dimensions I'd even be willing to pay a bit more as I was wanting to drive her as std before fitting any up graded parts as I want to keep as much originality as possible/.

Andy 

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My Standard (but too long) shocks hardly had any damping in them, another reason to send them back.

Waldi

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On a similar vein I’ve just rebuilt all my front suspension and looking around with it on axle stands and the Dunlop’s dangling free the trunnion stop contacts the spring pan and the VL stop at the same time. I had refitted the shocks (with new bushes) as they felt really good ...they are Woodhead.

This got me thinking when I tore it all apart the original stops were drilled off centre the new ones are concentric. Obviously one can limit the amount of lock with an eccentric stop!

So what is correct?

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Hi Dave,

     the TR4A stop was definitely eccentric when I pulled it all apart many moons ago.

However if you look at the Moss WebCat they are concentric.  I don;t know if the TR6 was always concentric.

Does the concentric stop have any effect.?

 

roger

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Hi Roger

Ive just been out to take another look. With it all hanging free the stop is contacting the pan ....possibly the trunnion too. With it sitting on its shoes it’ll be ok. Maybe I’ll whip out one of the dampers and .measure it’s length.

dave 

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15 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Dave,

     the TR4A stop was definitely eccentric when I pulled it all apart many moons ago.

However if you look at the Moss WebCat they are concentric.  I don;t know if the TR6 was always concentric.

Does the concentric stop have any effect.?

 

roger

Depends on who you talk to, Early cars with the original type of trunnion had an eccentric stop but when they changed to the later type of trunnion with the removable bolt through then and this is where it can get complicated some say they changed to concentric which then carried on through 5 and 6 but I know my 4a when I got it had eccentric stops. The early and late stops are a different height too so you cant swap them.

Stuart.

Edited by stuart
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