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Live axles...What the heck is this?


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Can somebody explain what is going on here - I've just pulled a couple of back axles apart in order to build a spare with a different ratio and one of the axles had this half shaft fitted on one side - it's got a pressed on collar where the bearing flange should be and to be honest I can't see what was actually holding the whole thing in!

 

174717453_Halfshafts.thumb.jpg.c67861cb67e008193611c346aec7b273.jpg

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I wonder if there is a slight taper on the inside of the collar, and one on the inner part of the shaft, so that as the collar goes further in it tightens up?
You could also try to reassemble the whole thing, lightly, and try to pull the half shaft out, to see if anything stops it.

Charlie.

 

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Well as an update - I cleaned up the shaft & measured it & there is a slight (couple of thou) size increase towards the back which is more than enough to hold the collar in place.

Interesting comment about our friends across the pond Mike, as that shaft came out of an American live axle 4A, anyway it's now gone to the scrap bin as I mushroomed the end of the thread removing the hub......and that was with the use of the proper Churchill hub puller.

Edited by Chilliman
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FWIW the solid axle used on a 4a is the strongest of all of them and is the one used by all the rally boys.

Stuart.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/3/2019 at 5:04 PM, stuart said:

FWIW the solid axle used on a 4a is the strongest of all of them and is the one used by all the rally boys.

Stuart.

What is different about them that makes them stronger?

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On 1/3/2019 at 5:04 PM, stuart said:

FWIW the solid axle used on a 4a is the strongest of all of them and is the one used by all the rally boys.

Stuart.

and if any one wants one i have one that is a complete axle with the 10 inch brake back plates. PM me for photos and price

 

tony

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4 hours ago, Drewmotty said:

What is different about them that makes them stronger?

Stronger half shafts and casings and when used as above with 10"brakes works a treat.

Stuart.

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  • 2 years later...

I have had diff tube leak which I cannot stop and pulling my half shaft today I find I have a 'shoulder' type in there with 3/16" end float. No wonder it leaks.

Mine is a UK car and I reckon original Diff so in the past I suspect the half shaft broke and a PO fitted a US Live Axle half shaft, as in John's photo.

Does anyone know (espec Stuart) if they can be a straight swop into a UK Diff ?

It appears that the hub has not gone all the way on hence the end float.  It is currently at a machine shop to try and salvage the hub and carrier.

Any help greatly appreciated on this one.

RobG

 

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58 minutes ago, RobG said:

I have had diff tube leak which I cannot stop and pulling my half shaft today I find I have a 'shoulder' type in there with 3/16" end float. No wonder it leaks.

Mine is a UK car and I reckon original Diff so in the past I suspect the half shaft broke and a PO fitted a US Live Axle half shaft, as in John's photo.

Does anyone know (espec Stuart) if they can be a straight swop into a UK Diff ?

It appears that the hub has not gone all the way on hence the end float.  It is currently at a machine shop to try and salvage the hub and carrier.

Any help greatly appreciated on this one.

RobG

 

They do fit but was the end float correctly set across the car?

Stuart.

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That end float sounds huge.

Jack the car up at the back.

Push the LH shaft in as far as it will go.

You will need a second person now or a dial indicator clamped and zero'd on the LH shaft end you just pushed fully in.

Get help to push the RH side fully in now and see what reading you are getting on the dial gauge.

If nothing happens at the LH side when the RH is pushed in the thrust button in the diff is missing. (item 76 here  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr2-4a/clutch-transmission-drivetrain/axles-differentials/rear-axle-girling-tr3-from-c-ts13046-tr3a-tr4-tr4a-usa-1955-65.html  )

If you get the measurement you mention (3/16" - 0.1875") then it is shim adjustment time.

Start with the same thickness of shims on both axle tube ends.

Remove or add equal amounts to get the prescribed (0.004-0.006?) across the car.

This action is detailed in the WSM.

 

The axle shaft with the collar is the same design as fitted to Dolomite Sprint axle shafts.  Dolly spring axle is very similar to a rigid Girling axle in a TR, using the same bearings, seals, gaskets and crown wheel & pinion assy.

Peter W

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Stuart,

Sorry slightly misled you all there. The 3/16" gap is with the half shaft out and moving the bearing housing up and down the shaft, should that gap open up that much between bearing housing and the hub ?

When the shaft is fitted and nuts done up around the housing there is no end float at all, it is hard up against the float, luckily I have not been driving much like this !!

Peter W, will do that test when I get the shaft back from machine shop, but sounds like this shaft could be reused if not squashed in the process.

I think my main problem is that the hub is not on far enough to the shaft meaning no end float, hence my question about the 3/16" gap.

The other side moves in and out slightly as expected and touches the float ok.

Float I mean Thrust button.

RobG

Edited by RobG
Float I mean Thrust button.
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You can usually tell if the hub is on far enough as there is roughly the same amount,of shaft sticking out on each shaft if you remove the end nut, 3/16" is as you say quite a lot, The hub doesnt normally move on the shaft unless the bearing is knackered.

Stuart.

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The shaft is now at the machine shop but from what I can remember there were less threads showing than on the other side, so good point. Also, I could wobble the bearing housing so again good point, I bet the old bearing is really knackered. Depending what I get back from the machine shop, I will let the thread know. This mess/bodge all came with the car in pieces so I have no history but this whole saga makes me think there was a catastrophic failure on this wheel and a US shaft was fitted and bodged and leaked like a sieve so the car was Barn Stored until I purchased the deceased remains back in 2014. Crikey over 7 years ago, but hey, nearly there now, otherwise we are road ready.

Thanks Stuart and Peter W for your help on this topic.

 

 

100_1325.JPG

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9 hours ago, RobG said:

I have had diff tube leak which I cannot stop and pulling my half shaft today I find I have a 'shoulder' type in there with 3/16" end float. No wonder it leaks.

Mine is a UK car and I reckon original Diff so in the past I suspect the half shaft broke and a PO fitted a US Live Axle half shaft, as in John's photo.

Does anyone know (espec Stuart) if they can be a straight swop into a UK Diff ?

It appears that the hub has not gone all the way on hence the end float.  It is currently at a machine shop to try and salvage the hub and carrier.

Any help greatly appreciated on this one.

RobG

 

According to the Moss USA catalogue the axle shafts are all interchangeable. I had a similar problem with the old diff on my car - a leak at the tube/housing interface and I believe that the tube was also moving in the housing, causing the car to skew about on acceleration/deceleration. The outer wheel bearings were also knackered. I found a good used diff and rebuilt it (well, a friend who knows his stuff actually did the fiddly work) and while it was apart had the tubes welded to the housing by a local shop that caters to off roaders and hot rods. The perches where the spacer block sits between the leaf spring and the axle were both in bad shape showing severely elongated holes and these were also fixed using thicker steel plate than the original, which is rather thin I think. This degradation of the spring perch seems to me to be caused by the spacer block geometry, and if the holes in the perch are squashed or elongated then the spacer cannot be firmly locked into the bottom of the axle, resulting in bizarre behavior under power. The rebuilt diff is rock solid now.

Attached is a photo of one of the axle shafts as we were disassembling the replacement unit. The lower photo shows the rebuilt axle being installed. The spacer block is clearly visible. My friend added a machined bolt in the spacer to better fit snugly in the perch on the bottom of the axle.

IMG_3441.jpg

IMG_3492.jpg

Edited by Andy303
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Peter,

Do you know if it is useable as it is ?  Or would I need to get it taken apart ?

RobG

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28 minutes ago, RobG said:

Peter,

Do you know if it is useable as it is ?  Or would I need to get it taken apart ?

RobG

I cannot be sure.   It came out of an ok axle a while back and I put it in the shed as a source for a flange.  If it were to go in my axle I would just clean it up and give it a try.

Peter W

PS I do have a Churchill M86 hub tool so could try to get the thing stripped.  No promises as the things do not always want to separate.

Edited by BlueTR3A-5EKT
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Andy303,

Thanks for the pictures. In the first one I can see clearly the thin joint between the bearing housing and the hub flange.

On mine that is a really big gap with a wobbly housing. I am now more sure my problem is the knackered bearing causing the whole shaft to wobble and let oil pass the seal.

I have never been able to road test, let alone accelerate hard to see what other issues there, but won't be long, hopefully.

Thanks, RobG

 

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Peter,

For me to find out if the M86 would split it would be great.

Let's wait and see what I get back from machine shop.

In the meantime have a think how much you want for it and add on a courier cost as Pinner is a long slog M25 nightmare for me from Sussex.

Thanks

RobG

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16 hours ago, Andy303 said:

According to the Moss USA catalogue the axle shafts are all interchangeable. I had a similar problem with the old diff on my car - a leak at the tube/housing interface and I believe that the tube was also moving in the housing, causing the car to skew about on acceleration/deceleration. The outer wheel bearings were also knackered. I found a good used diff and rebuilt it (well, a friend who knows his stuff actually did the fiddly work) and while it was apart had the tubes welded to the housing by a local shop that caters to off roaders and hot rods. The perches where the spacer block sits between the leaf spring and the axle were both in bad shape showing severely elongated holes and these were also fixed using thicker steel plate than the original, which is rather thin I think. This degradation of the spring perch seems to me to be caused by the spacer block geometry, and if the holes in the perch are squashed or elongated then the spacer cannot be firmly locked into the bottom of the axle, resulting in bizarre behavior under power. The rebuilt diff is rock solid now.

Attached is a photo of one of the axle shafts as we were disassembling the replacement unit. The lower photo shows the rebuilt axle being installed. The spacer block is clearly visible. My friend added a machined bolt in the spacer to better fit snugly in the perch on the bottom of the axle.

IMG_3441.jpg

IMG_3492.jpg

Andy I see you have fitted new springs, did you find the bow of the spring is too pronounced and the axle tends to sit on the chassis a lot of the time? I had terrible trouble with mine until it finally settled a bit and then I fitted spring clamps as I then found the spring was too soft.

Stuart.

1114640721_Rearaxle006.thumb.jpg.fe9b839d58188d12da1e1d76266352c2.jpg

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Stuart:

I had not noticed that, but I will take a look tonight. No banging or anything, seems to ride nice. The rear is raised slightly compared to the old ones, but looks correct.

Andy

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