TR 6 valve oil seals

[Mr Gee]

I have a 1973 TR6 which has done 75k but only done 4.5k since 1994 when the cylinder head was changed/worked on for stage 2 

the car is using oil which is concerning ,a compression test has been done and compression appear to be all ok, on talking to others it is suggested that the oil loss/use could be due to valve stem oil seals letting by therefore allowing oil into the cylinders

At the moment I am facing a bill of £1340 which is ok if it resolves the problem

Does anybody have any experience of the above and or any advise

Colin Garwood

[RogerH]

Hi Colin,

     is the £1340 just to sort the valve stem oil seals.  That would seem a bit on the high side.

 

Roger

[Steves_TR6]

Thats not ‘a bit high’ thats ‘way too high’ !

actually i didnt thing the tr6 had valve stem oil seals, so i guess this is to add them?

also is the ‘using oil’ as in burning it with smoke coming out of the exhaust?, or losing it through leaks?

steve

Edited December 27, 2018 by Steves_TR6

[RogerH]

Item 19  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/engine/cylinder-head-fittings/cylinder-head-assemblies-tr5-6.html

A few hours work.   

If it is these seals then the head should not need to be removed I would have thought.

 

Why are you changing the seals?

 

Roger

[Mr Gee]

The cylinder has been converted to stage 2 in 1994 by Racetorations but they do not have any record of (he event

The head now has double valve springs which I am advised cannot be compressed when the cylinder headis on , to take the collets out and get access to the valve stem oil seals hence the need to remove the cylinder head for any works that are required

The car is burning oil but I believe with oil arriving in the cylinders via the valve stems , this is very apparent when first starting the car after being idle for some time, oil cannot climb up the cylinders !!!! ?

[Mr Gee]

50 minutes ago, Steves_TR6 said:

Thats not ‘a bit high’ thats ‘way too high’ !

actually i didnt thing the tr6 had valve stem oil seals, so i guess this is to add them?

also is the ‘using oil’ as in burning it with smoke coming out of the exhaust?, or losing it through leaks?

steve

Hi Steve

It would appear that the cylinder has to be removed to fit the new oil seals this being part due to the head being converted  to stage 2 by Racetoratons in 1994 albeit they do not have any record of same

the valves have double springs fitted which I gather negates the possibility of doing the seals with the cylinder head in situe  !!!

[RogerH]

Hi Colin,

  I normally play with the 4 pot engines but I can't see how a set of double springs can;t be compressed using the usual string method.

Perhaps there are some experts out there that know the real  story.

 

Roger

 

[Richard71]

£1340? Still too high even if the cyl head must be removed, I'm guessing that quote was given by Racetorations? It's not particularly difficult specialised work, try another engine shop for a more reasonable quote.

Where in UK are you?

Regards,

Richard.

[Tom Fremont]

FWIW, I've got a Racetorations head on my driver which has done 90K miles and counting with no valve seals. Oil consumption is 1 U.S. quart every 3000 miles ( 4000 miles if cruising X-country ). The bottom end, i.e. piston rings et al have another 35K miles on top of that. I also have a SMITHS PCV valve fitted which feeds crankcase fumes and oil mist into the inlet manifold ( a CANNON which nicely distributes this to all 6 pots ). Finally, it has an auxiliary oil feed line to the rocker shaft, putting more oil yet into harm's way.

I don't think valve seals are worthwhile for these, and confess I've always wondered how the valve guides get lubricated when fitted. In fact, when I had a NOS head done by P. Burgess I was fortunate to have Pete Cox weigh in on certain elements and he brought up valve guide seals in case I was interested. I declined, and he seemed perfectly content with that.

I reckon rocker arm geometry is critical to long life of the guides. Not sure how many of the usual suspects get this right, nor whether Racetorations was actually deliberate or I am just lucky with this one. ( I've been plenty  "unlucky" with them otherwise and so won't endorse them further. ) 

 

Cheers,

Tom

[Steves_TR6]

2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Item 19  https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/triumph/tr5-6/engine/cylinder-head-fittings/cylinder-head-assemblies-tr5-6.html

A few hours work.   

If it is these seals then the head should not need to be removed I would have thought.

 

Why are you changing the seals?

 

Roger

Two thoughts

1, those seals are supplemental, ie not originally fitted but often added later

2, dont all tr6 have double valve springs?

3, getting the head off isnt rocket science, its not even science!

ok, thats 3 !

i too have an ex racetorations motor, but its been messed about with quite a lot....... 120k+ bit not on the same engine!

have rocker oilf feed, and no real oil burning but i have thought that no 1 plg is a little oily sometimes.

perhaps find a local TR friendly garage to give you a second estimate?

steve

[ntc]

They do not work wrong seal,yes they can be fitted with the head on.

Been there done that inlets only. 

Use search 

Edited December 27, 2018 by ntc

[harlequin]

Its unusual for guides to be letting oil past after such short milage, how much oil is being burnt? What sort of crankcase ventilation do you have?

I would be inclined  to get some long drives in before taking things apart, with only 4.5k in 24 years there is a good chance an oil ring is stuck or maybe it just needs running in.

George

[stillp]

£1340 is a lot for half a day's work. Surely that quote is for more than just changing valve guide seals?

Pete

[DaveN]

Glazed bores! Probably needs some thrashing. 

[Motorsport Mickey]

2 hours ago, DaveN said:

Glazed bores! Probably needs some thrashing. 

^+1

But thrashing it don't cut the mustard, too many revs.

As posed previously by George the mileage suggests probably 1 k in the first year when it was a novelty and then a couple of hundred miles a year, excellent territory for glazed bore, often features on Porsche and other forum along the lines of "woe is me"  (costs loads more to sort on a Porsche) 

You stand a chance that some BMEP* ( Google it)  running will sort it and it's more fun than digging out "moolah" for somebody else. Find a motorway gradient ( long and gradual) and arrive at the start of it in TOP gear and at about 500 revs below the max torque level for your cam ( standard 3500 revs ?). Then after checking mirrors for overtaking traffic from behind, floor the throttle and keep it buried in the Wilton, when the cars got to about 4200 revs take foot off the throttle and brake the car down to 3000 revs again and repeat, many times. Come off the motorway when you've climbed the gradient and go back on the other side looking for the opposing bank the other side where the up gradient is and carry out the above exercise. 

You are trying to expand the piston rings ( that's why you do it in top gear, you need to "load" the engine) which continuous full throttle application in top gear does, it's the expansion of the rings which are forced into contact with the cylinder liner bores gouging ( steady...we are talking microns) through the glazing and scouring the excess oil from the walls.

I normally devote maybe 1 1/2 hrs  a time doing this maybe 3 times a week for a month to bed the piston rings in to the cylinder bores, if you can't devote this amount of time book in at your friendly rolling road and explain what you are asking them to do. Cost probably £50 and likely to be done in an hour ( they can load the engine precisely on the rollers and hold the revs at max torque with ease) . Then see what the oil usage is like, if no change, it's only cost £50 and you can always go back to the garage that gave you the quote and embark on plan B.

Mick Richards

* Brake Mean Effective Pressure

 

 

 

[DaveN]

Your right of course Sir but it did sort mine..... prolly more by luck! When I first got it there was something of a novelty flashing cars out of the way on the motorway

I too thought I was in for a rebuild after pulling the sump to take a look at the thrust washers and bearings and finding everything was still standard. Managed to get NOS Vandervell mains and big ends in standard size. Then ragging it about again the consumption greatly improved.

[TriumphV8]

There are many ways to solve the problem but first you should make sure that the problem is play in the valve guide and not too much that making them new is the recommended solution.

If guides are worn the engine will blow oil when driving with high revs and lift the pedal. Especially if you apply gas again the exhaust will fume white.

Remedy:

1.) You can use the rubber rings on the stem, cheap and not very good.

2.) With single springs there is Mitsubishi cap that fits direct on the guide.

3.) The cap from the VW Golf1 fits and needs turning down the top of the guide to 10.2mm

4.) The cap from Citoen fits that is the one Goodparts offers and needs turning down to 10.2mm.

Turning down the top can be done with guide in place but head must be removed. It is done by a cutter that fits into the valve guide. Advantage is that seats need no regrind.

Springs can be removed with head on the engine but than only  1.) can be used and 2.) if a swap to another spring makes sense.

 

I would choose 3 or 4 and make the guides new, they cost only 2 GBP. The only disadvantage of a removed guide is that it is necessary to recut the valve seat. All in all it should be around 1000 GBP with caps & new guides & seats cut & seats regrind

[Andy Moltu]

The o ring seals are not worth the effort.

There have been valve guides supplied by Chris Wittor and others that have a groove machined in them to enable a Mini (A series) seal to be used which fits inside the double valve springs without modifying the valve cap. They seem only supplied for the inlets but presumably the same can be done to the exhausts although will it be at the risk of the exhausts picking up?

You can fit the o rings without removing the head but unlikely to make a difference.

[DaveR]

The factory figure for oil consumption is between 500 and 1000 miles per pint for the small four and the six cylinder engines. There are no seals on the valves and the engine is designed to use oil to reduce wear. It is also difficult to fit any seals to the valve guides that stay in place. If you did it would probably cause further wear to the guides. 

£1340 is high for changing the valve guides.

Dave

[Waldi]

1 hour ago, Andy Moltu said:

The o ring seals are not worth the effort.

There have been valve guides supplied by Chris Wittor and others that have a groove machined in them to enable a Mini (A series) seal to be used which fits inside the double valve springs without modifying the valve cap. They seem only supplied for the inlets but presumably the same can be done to the exhausts although will it be at the risk of the exhausts picking up?

You can fit the o rings without removing the head but unlikely to make a difference.

I bought a set of 12 guides and seals in bronze from Goodparts. Installation was relatively easy, and the seals fitted inside the double springs without any modification. The set also contained a small bush to drive (press) the new guides in to the correct dept, and a very detailed description. I used a small 4 ton hydraulic press to push them in in a controlled manner. I then reamed the guides a bit wider because the bronze guides apparently get more narrow than the original cast iron guides, maybe because they are softer. Andreas (Danke) helped me with this job,a true TR engineer!

Regards,

Waldi

[TriumphV8]

Just another head prepared and as my name was mentioned before

here is a short  video to show a proper cut valve seat.

 

Sometimes the seats are not centric,  a reason can be that new valve guides are fitted.

But often quickly cut seats are also not perfect because the people push the cutter to one side.

 

In the video first picture the seat cutters and some tools can be seen,

than there is the valve falling back on the non centric seat, it sticks because the valve is pushed towards a side of the guide.

Next a seat can be seen after I cut the seat. The pilot is in the guide to center the tool.

Most of the cut off material is at one side. This shows that it was bad before.

At last a happy valve is jumping from the seat because its nicely in the middle and centric.

 

[Waldi]

And this is exactly what Andreas learnt me! A true engineer, danke Andreas!

Waldi