GJL Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Hello all, I wonder if you could help me out? I have a 1971 TVR Vixen fitted with the Triumph TR6 Engine, in what I think would have been US spec. It has had the original carbs replaced with two SU HS6 and was fitted with an uprated cam a number of years ago. In the engine rebuild invoices it states Triumph 6 Cyl sports "R" cam kit. Having an uneducated guess I think it is could be a Kent TH5-6 (fast road). I was having intermittent ignition problems so I decided to fit a 123 ignition kit and wondered if anyone has any experience or could help with a suitable curve for me to apply. Many thanks in advance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 if you are close to a CR 9.5 or even 10 try a curve close to this 500 - 12° 1000 - 16° 1600 - 21° 2000 - 23° 2600 - 28° 3000 - 30° 4000 - 30° Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Idle Run (900) about 11, below that, pull up the curve again. 500 can even go up to 20°. 1000 can go down to 13° Max advance 30° depends on CR. Start at 28°, gently climb up till knocking, backoff 2 degrees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted December 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Thanks Jochems, This sounds good. I will try this tomorrow and will report back when I have had a test run. Merry Christmas and thanks again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ntc Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 B best setting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted December 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Mine is the bluetooth version so you can add in your own curve and tweak it as you go. I wondered about the one with the 16 pre-settings but liked the idea of being able to make adjustments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted December 25, 2018 Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 I have the older 123 unit on my TR6 (9.6:1 CR), using preset B. As I recall that equates to 10 degrees at 1000rpm, 23 degrees at 2000 rpm and maxes out at 33 degrees. Are you able to modify the newer 123 in real-time, eg while on a test drive ?. Stan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted December 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2018 Stan, I am just getting to grips with the app that controls the timing. I will try to have a better look tomorrow. It seems you can programme a curve with the ignition on but the engine not running. You can then fine tune while on a test drive with a tune up/tune down button. I am going to set the curve as Jochems recommended and try that. After fitting the new 123 distributor I set it close to what was in the Haynes manual but it felt a little less perky than before in certain parts of the rev range. I used the tune up and down buttons but thought I would try a different curve then fine tune it from there. This is all subject to a bit of guesswork as I am not 100% sure of the cam profile etc. Also, I am sure the old distributor was far from perfect, so adjustments will have been made over the years, not to mention the difference in fuel compared to when the original curve was published. I will be tweaking for a while to come. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 I have the 123tune+ bluetooth version on my 6, very happy with it. to set the initial curve i measured the curve of the old distributor and set the new one up the same. i measured by callibrating tdc, was 8 degrees out so needed a new crank pulley!, then measuring advance every 500 revs. the 123 app works well on iphone but is unreliable on android i could dig out the curve if it would help? steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spit_2.5PI Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 I didn't know it did that - sense the temperature of the engine. Presumably through the physical connection to the block. Is this just a Tune feature? I'm guessing the base model 123 (which I have) doesn't do this? I've no idea why you might want the ignition to respond to temperature, I'm just impressed that it does. Merry Xmas everyone, Richard Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 Steve, If you could dig out your curve it might be a help. I will be trying the figures Jochems posted above but if I have another one to test it would be good. Richard, Yes the info you can see on the app is good and I also like the fact you can use the app to immobilise the car which is a useful feature. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foster461 Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) c rap. Now I want a new 123 dizzy with bluetooth. Interesting feature to "lock" it so that the car wont start. Easier than removing the rotor arm. Better change that default password though. Stan Edited December 26, 2018 by foster461 defeat the stupid cencorship. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 Ok i’ll look out the numbers tomorrow just checked the app and it doesnt remember the numbers when its not connected to the car! steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Steves_TR6 said: Ok i’ll look out the numbers tomorrow just checked the app and it doesnt remember the numbers when its not connected to the car! steve Yes, I noticed that. It took a while to get the hang of the app but I am finding my way around now. If you wouldn't mind, could you have a look at the vacuum or MAP curve while you are connected, it would be appreciated. I put in a new advance curve with Jochems figures today and it seems to be pulling well now but if I have another set of figures I would like to compare and see which suits best. Thanks again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 Unless you have a dyno bench, you will not find much difference within few degrees. TR6 engine is very forgiving. Do the following: put in 3rd. Start at 1.500 rpm, pull upto to 4.000 or 4.500. use stopwatch. Repeat. MAP feature not needed. Program 2nd curve and use switch in the console. Play between the two curves. But trust me, after few weeks, you are done playing.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z320 Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) Hi out there, I would like to tell you a funny story. A friend of mine, TR4A owner as me, drove his car as it was for years (for example to Scotland) and has always been pleased. Indeed his car run very well, what I had to realise when we went out with him ( and our wifes) in our TRs, short and also long distances. On my recommendation he bought a ignition gun, the same type I own, but the gun failed on his TR when he used it. But mine also failed on his car, both showed 22 degree on every rev, but both guns worked well on my car. Problem was found and repaired: his distributor was clued by oil, rust and dust in one position and did not work for years! I guess not only the 6 cylinder is very forgivable... Funny story, isn't it? Ciao/ Cheers Marco Edited December 26, 2018 by Z320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steves_TR6 Posted December 27, 2018 Report Share Posted December 27, 2018 Ok so the advance values on my ‘mongrel’ pi car were/are tickover 8 1000 9 1500 10 2000 14 2500 18 3000 20 3500 22 4000 28 i plan to have the mu and ignition set up on a rolling road, i think it would take a little more advance, but runs well on those numbers steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Posted February 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2019 I tried a few different curves but found that the figures Jochems quotes above really suit my car. It feels responsive and perky. I think it might be giving slightly less MPG, but that isn't based on anything scientific and is negligible. I am happy with the set up and if any slight improvements could be made it would have to be on a rolling road, but I don't feel the need to tweak it any further. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maverick Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) On 12/25/2018 at 4:13 PM, JochemsTR said: if you are close to a CR 9.5 or even 10 try a curve close to this 500 - 12° 1000 - 16° 1600 - 21° 2000 - 23° 2600 - 28° 3000 - 30° 4000 - 30° Hi Jochem, what have you set on the retard tune settings, so basically the MAP curve? I've just installed the 123 tune+ and have to try out now the best curve. The car is running, however I've to try some curves to find the best setting, as it's running on idle a bit unsteady. As I'm new to this topic i wonder how to handle the MAP curve... Many thanks! Albert Edited July 9, 2020 by Maverick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 Hello Albert, on my previous setup which was with 123Tune and carburators, I did not use MAP. Just the curve as I mentioned... Jochem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tim D. Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 Hi all, Do these numbers include the static advance? Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peterq Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 Hi Jochem, just for my understanding: Setup for a standard CR with contact breakers means 10 degrees static and 26 degrees centrifugal (13 degrees in distributor), so 36 degrees max. The 123 Ignition manual (PDF by Limora) says to turn the crankshaft to the required static timing (that would be 10 degrees) an turn the distributor till the led lights. This would mean that static timing plus the curve in the distributor are added? Or am I misunderstanding something? Regards Peter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peterq Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 Sorry, Tim was faster...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maverick Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, JochemsTR said: Hello Albert, on my previous setup which was with 123Tune and carburators, I did not use MAP. Just the curve as I mentioned... Jochem thanks Jochem, very much appreciated. I was testing today with the exact numbers you mentioned without the use of the MAP and it's really running very nice! The starting is much faster and softer. I still have to work on my idle RPM, currently it's running on 1.100 RPM on idle, a bit high maybe... but RPMs below that my TR250 do not like yet. Have to fix the carbs as well at some point and idle them probably. Unfortunately I don't know which camshaft i have inside, i guess it's a Kenwell 280°. Could this be the reason for the high idle RPM? Edited July 9, 2020 by Maverick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JochemsTR Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 In my current EFI config, I am running 10-11° advance (@ idle, 900). There is lots of debate whether this may be too less for a 143 HP PI Engine. For my 170 HP and CR 9,5 it has suited me. The curve I presented with my previous 123 config, is indeed higher. about 15° @ Idle 900. This seems to be the value for best torque in lower RPM....and yes, it includes static advance. These are the numbers you see using a strobe light. with a max. 30-32° depending on CR and engine config. If you do not have a rolling road, I mentioned following test: put in 3rd. Start at 1.500 rpm, pull upto to 4.000 or 4.500. use stopwatch. Repeat. Increase curve with 2 degrees increments. When indeed pinging occurs, back off 2 degrees in higher RPM range. Jochem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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