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TRGB Fuel Pump Kit Installation


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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't want to hijack Ian's thread but can anyone tell me how I go about getting a Gates Barricade (or equivalent) high pressure hose made up for the standard Lucas set up. I know this has been covered before but I cannot find specifics on where to get the pipe, union types and sizes etc. If someone could tell me "this is who to go to and this is what to ask for" in true Noddy fashion I would appreciate it

I have just rebuilt the car with all new hoses and all kit re-conditioned by Neil F. It's only covered about 100 miles but I already have petrol smells in the boot which seem to be coming from the high pressure hose. All the smaller hose is barricade, bought from moss but the HP hose is Moss' standard 30R6 offering which not only smells but also whines like a coyote if routed across the wheel arch. Related to this, do I need to have clips on all the smaller hoses where they join to the copper or kunifer inlet and outlet branches?

Many thanks,

Sean

Hi Sean,

SAE 30R6 is not a suitable spec or hose for low permeation through the hose wall and should not be sold as a protection against ethanol. You cannot get technical with Moss as that will baffle them! There is also a DIN Standard 73379-2A that has a high resistance to ethanol. This hose is made by Cohline and has a working pressure of 10 bar with a burst pressure of 3x working pressure. It is obtainable from Spectrum Hose in HIgh Wycombe (01494524332) I have not used this spec. so I do not know its actual performance. My larger Gates hose sizes came from the USA via a friend in Canada as I was unable to obtain the 3/8" bore size here in the UK. The smaller sizes came from Moss who did not know that they had them or what it was, hence my comment?

Bruce

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We are now using R14 which is the latest spec hose to suit high Ethanol content European fuels. Its made in the USA by Gates but I managed to get some over here a while ago.

Stuart.

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Hi Sean,

I ordered my Gates Barricade hoses in the USA through ebay, shipping is very expensive, so a colleague brought them with him when he came to EU.

Regarding ordering info, in addition to the above:

Gates also sells a low pressure type of the Barricade hose, and several other types, so make sure to order the right type:

SAEJ30R14T2 is the correct spec for low emission hose for fuel injection (not only for the Gates product).

This spec allows for a higher allowable working pressure than normal “fuel hose”. It has an allowable working presure of 15,5 bar (225 psi). Burst pressure 80 bar (1160 psi). These numbers are impressive but normally not tested at maximum temperature. 

I simply did cut my old hose from the fittings, measured the diameter of the ferrule (not the larger barb) and ordered new hoses.

I think measured 9,70 mm (3/8")  for pump-prv and 6,25 mm (1/4") from pipe to MU, and am pretty sure these are the standard fittings.

Ordering numbers: 4219BF+ Inside diameter (ID).

Gates uses several order numbers depending on length, but if you order 4219BF and your ID it should be ok.

Note: the lower pressure grade is called  “fuel hose” and is 4219BG+ ID, but not suitable for the high pressure part of our PI. Works fine for all other hoses in the fuel system.

When the hoses arrived, a local hydraulic shop pressed metal sleeves over hose and fittings and that’s it. Note the orientation of the fittings, if relevant, since you cannot turn the fittings once pressed. The fitting cost me 5 euro’s  “for the coffee pot”.

I do not recommend jubilee clips for this 7 bar fuel application,  not worth risking it.

hope this helps.

Waldi

 

 

Edited by Waldi
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I received the instructions for both the pump kit and the relay wiring today, TRGB have agreed that I can return the latter as it doesn't replace the original wiring, I will get the RTR kit instead.

Ian

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2 minutes ago, harrytr5 said:

I would recommend fitting an off/ on tap such as one from Demon Tweeks part number  CFT001 all metal with yellow handle, to the tank outlet.Makes maintenance so much easier.

Regards Harry

I can see why this would make sense Harry but I'm afraid this goes back to why some of us buy kits, we don't deal with this stuff often and buying the parts isn't straightforward due to the numerous options, this tap requires adaptors to make is fit my installation, yet more failure points and more chances to buy the wrong parts.

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iani

Failure is not an option and no different from fitting all the other parts.I bought mine and adapters from Demontweeks to fit the tap. I can not remember the thread sizes (that does not help I know) but so worth it. I went over to EFI in 2010 with a huge amount of plumbing and all that entails.

Put a tap on, you will thank me the first time you have to use it. It is so easy to do.

Regards Harry

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15 hours ago, Waldi said:

Hi Sean,

I ordered my Gates Barricade hoses in the USA through ebay, shipping is very expensive, so a colleague brought them with him when he came to EU.

Regarding ordering info, in addition to the above:

Gates also sells a low pressure type of the Barricade hose, and several other types, so make sure to order the right type:

SAEJ30R14T2 is the correct spec for low emission hose for fuel injection (not only for the Gates product).

This spec allows for a higher allowable working pressure than normal “fuel hose”. It has an allowable working presure of 15,5 bar (225 psi). Burst pressure 80 bar (1160 psi). These numbers are impressive but normally not tested at maximum temperature. 

I simply did cut my old hose from the fittings, measured the diameter of the ferrule (not the larger barb) and ordered new hoses.

I think 8 mm for pump-prv and 6 mm from pipe to MU.

Ordering numbers: 4219BF+ Inside diameter (ID).

Gates uses several order numbers depending on length, but if you order 4219BF and your ID it should be ok.

Note: the lower pressure grade is called  “fuel hose” and is 4219BG+ ID, but not suitable for the high pressure part of our PI. Works fine for all other hoses in the fuel system.

When the hoses arrived, a local hydraulic shop pressed metal sleeves over hose and fittings and that’s it. Note the orientation of the fittings, if relevant, since you cannot turn the fittings once pressed. The fitting cost me 5 euro’s  “for the coffee pot”.

I do not recommend jubilee clips for this 7 bar fuel application,  not worth risking it.

hope this helps.

Waldi

 

 

+1 for Waldl. 14 type is for carb use only Quote ' not for injection'. 9 type is for PI injection all info as per Gates Data Sheet!

Bruce.

 

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27 minutes ago, astontr6 said:

+1 for Waldl. 14 type is for carb use only Quote ' not for injection'. 9 type is for PI injection all info as per Gates Data Sheet!

Bruce.

 

Thats not what Waldi quoted for R14, He quoted..... "SAEJ30R14T2 is the correct spec for low emission hose for fuel injection (not only for the Gates product)."

Stuart.

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Hi Stuart,

Bruce is correct in that SAE J30 R9 is listed in SAE J30 as fuel injection hose. It has a higher allowable working pressure, but it does not have now permeability requirements like SAE J30 R14, so especialy when E5 petrol or even worse, E10 is used, emissions (permeabilty) increases drastically.
But R14 hose is rated for a working pressure of 3,4 bar (50 psi) only, clearly not enough for our high pressure side.
SAE J30R14 is listed in SAE J30 as low permeation  low pressure hose.

So a hose with the SAE J30 R14 (aiming for low permeability) AND with a high enough allowable pressure is the best of both worlds. 
I guess Gates opted to used "R14" as suitable category (instead of R9) because there are not many low permeabilty hoses available.

There can be an appendix for allowable continuous operating temperature in SAE J30:
SAE J30 R14T1 Up to 100 C
SAE J30 R14 T2: Up to 125 C
Gates exceeds the requirements of SAE J30 R14T2 (but not for kink).

Remark:
I do not have the latest version of SAE J30, and based my data on the 2008 edition (I have no free access to the latest version).
If someone wants a copy of the 2008 edition, it can be found here: 

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/SAEJ30.pdf

And finally, I do not have any connection to Gates.

Regards,

Waldi
.

 

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I have a roll here of Gates Barricade which is marked as 4219BF and rated at 225PSI Multi fuel and Bio fuel compatible.SAE30R14T2. 5/16". Thats more than capable of handling Lucas pressures.

Stuart.

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34 minutes ago, stuart said:

I have a roll here of Gates Barricade which is marked as 4219BF and rated at 225PSI Multi fuel and Bio fuel compatible.SAE30R14T2. 5/16". Thats more than capable of handling Lucas pressures.

Stuart.

That’s the one I have Stuart.

If you gave a roll of it you are a rich men:)

 

Waldi

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6 hours ago, harrytr5 said:

iani

Failure is not an option and no different from fitting all the other parts.I bought mine and adapters from Demontweeks to fit the tap. I can not remember the thread sizes (that does not help I know) but so worth it. I went over to EFI in 2010 with a huge amount of plumbing and all that entails.

Put a tap on, you will thank me the first time you have to use it. It is so easy to do.

Regards Harry

iani 

X2

You will save so much time/hassle in the future should you have a problem with pipes or tank or just want to clean up the boot area. My pump is also in the wheel arch and this gives you a little more space to use in the boot also.

Paul 

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When I fit this kit, what should I do with the two pipes from the original filter that lead up to the top of the tank?

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Hi Ian,

assuming these are vents, the have to be removed and the opening at the top of the tank blinded off.

Waldi

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6 minutes ago, Waldi said:

Hi Ian,

assuming these are vents, the have to be removed and the opening at the top of the tank blinded off.

Waldi

Thanks Waldi, I really don't see why TRGB couldn't have put more detail into their instructions, "Remove the original fuel filter unit" is somewhat short of the mark for what is actually required here!

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Hi Sean,

CORRECTION:
My apologies, the dimension of the hose from Pump to PRV was not correct in my above post. It is 10 mm (3/8) inside diameter.
I edited above post, so thanks for asking confirmation.
I double checked in the car and in my notes (I made sketches of the ferrules), so this is what I really have now.

The other high pressure hose from metal pipe under car to MU is 6 mm (1/4") as I indicated before. 

Regards,

Waldi

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On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 10:16 AM, stuart said:

Thats not what Waldi quoted for R14, He quoted..... "SAEJ30R14T2 is the correct spec for low emission hose for fuel injection (not only for the Gates product)."

Stuart.

Hi Stuart,

I am only going on what my Gates Data sheet says and what is written in green on my small gates hose sizes. Now my data sheet is over 2 years old so things may have move on . But Waldi is nearly 100 % correct in his post, hence my comment, as far as I am concerned! At the end of the day one must take note what is written on the O/D of any hose.

Bruce.

 

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Thanks Bruce, you are 100% correct.

For those of us who got lost in specification- interpretations:

SAE J30 R9 is indeed the spec for fuel injection hose, but has high permeability when E5 or E10 is used; its emission can be 60 times higher when used for these modern fuels, according to the spec.

SAE J30 R14T1(orT2) is a low permeability hose for E5, E10, but the pressure rating is not sufficient for our PI system (105 psi).

If you select a hose that complies with R14 AND with sufficient continuous working pressure, you have the best of both worlds (specs).

I hope this clears the mist.

Regards,

Waldi

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Waldi,

I've just ordered 2 feet of 4219BF from the US at exhorbitant cost. $12 for the hose and $19 for delivery :angry:. All I need to do now is work out how to get the couplings fitted when it arrives.

Thanks again.

Sean

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Great Sean,

I carefully removed the old hose from the ferrule.

For this I first ground the thin metal compression sleeve, 2 longitudinal splits were enough. Then with a sharp knive I made some cuts in the rubber, from the end of the hose in length (to not damage the tapered part of the barbs), and removed the old hose.

Then cleaned the old fittings with fine steel wire spunge (the ferrule looked pretty new by the way), slid hose on one fitting (pump side), and trial fitted the hose in situ to determine the optimum length of the hose.

Then cut the hose too the required (marked) length and  went to an hydraulic shop.

Regards,

Waldi

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