Fuel tank woes.

[Keith66]

Hi All

My fuel tank woes.

So for anyone that doesn’t know I’ve been restoring my 1972 TR6 Pi for, well too many years.

It’s never run in my hands but after much work that is getting closer.

So to the fuel tank. Clearly before I install the tank, fill it up and fire the old beast up (here's hoping lol) it needs to be in good nick.

I now refer to my pic’s cuz its not!!!

although i did a light inside test and no obvious holes but they could be coverred by rust and the outside is ok, with no heavy rust.

So the question is is it restorable? If yes suggestions of methods or do I just bite the bullet and get a new one and are new ones better in terms of baffles etc, no idea what spec mine is although I can see what I assume is the swirl pot.

I’ve seen Ed’s (Bullfire) method and it looks a really good idea but I don’t have a mixer to hand so wondered if there were any other or similar suggestions?

The other thought was did the original tanks have any kind of rust inhibiting surface and by using a mechanical rust removal method is that lost and would my newly refubed tank simply rust up again. Esp with modern fuels?

From things I’ve read (so no actual experience) coatings are not ideal, but maybe the best modern ones are ok?

So thoughts everyone.

And what do the professional restorers do, I guess just replace the tank?

Cheers

Keith

 

[Nigel Triumph]

The tank on my Scimitar GTE was similar, possibly a little worse inside, fuel filters quickly filling with rust. Fortunately it hadn't perforated and stated to leak.

I used a slosh sealant kit from Frost Auto Restoration, said to be suitable for unleaded and ethanol containing petrol. Two years later the tank is still fine, and the filter is free from rust flakes.

https://www.frost.co.uk/por15-basic-big-fuel-car-tank-repair-sealer-kit.html

At £70, this kit is much cheaper than a new tank!

Nigel

[rcreweread]

Keith - have sent you a PM

Cheers

Rich

[Waldi]

Hi Keith,

Mine was similar on inside. I did not apply an inside coating because I am concerned it will not resist the E10 fuel which we will have in a couple of years.

I have a grit blasting cabinet and blasted the inside (where I could “hit” it), then flushed with water+soap until it was clear, then vacuum cleaned (12 mm hose with tape on an old vacuum cleaner, the suction filter (10 or 20 micron) will take care of the rest, I hope.

The outside was blasted too, here I applied   a coat of black PU paint.

In hindsight, I should have enlarged the outlet, but I simply forgot that. The smallest ID in the suction line now is 8.5 mm.

An alternative for grit blasting may be filling the tank with “grinding stones” and shake untill you are bored.

Waldi

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Waldi said:

 

An alternative for grit blasting may be filling the tank with “grinding stones” and shake untill you are bored.

Waldi

This is kind of what I did. I used gravel from my garden and a phosphoric acid solution and shook the tank fairly vigorously for a few minutes once an hour over the course of a day. This was followed by several rinses with petrol and a fogging with WD40 until it was ready to go back in the car. The only mistake I made was using the gravel straight from my garden path and not washing it first so I got a lot of fine sandy dirt in my tank but the method worked very well and a home made siphon made short work of of the fine grit I was left with.

[harlequin]

Instead of gravel I used a handful of nuts and bolts so that I could pick them out with a magnet. After plugging all the holes strap the the tank to a cement mixer and make a cup of tea, alter the angle of the mixer occasionally to get better coverage.

George

[RogerH]

Hi Keith,

              Bilt Hamber DeOxC. This will make 20 litres.

Blank off the holes. Fill tank and leave over night. You will need to lay the tank on various sides to get all of it clean - bit easy to do.

 

There is no protective film from new.

 

Roger

[KiwiTR6]

8 hours ago, Nigel Triumph said:

The tank on my Scimitar GTE was similar, possibly a little worse inside, fuel filters quickly filling with rust. Fortunately it hadn't perforated and stated to leak.

I used a slosh sealant kit from Frost Auto Restoration, said to be suitable for unleaded and ethanol containing petrol. Two years later the tank is still fine, and the filter is free from rust flakes.

https://www.frost.co.uk/por15-basic-big-fuel-car-tank-repair-sealer-kit.html

At £70, this kit is much cheaper than a new tank!

Nigel

Agree with Nigel.  We have been using the motorcycle version of this product for years and it makes an excellent job leaving a very hard impermeable silver suface on the inside of the tanks.  The key points are (1) follow the manufacturer's instructions carefully and (2) make sure there is no moisture whatsoever in the joints - we use a heat gun on the outside along the seams working back and forth. 

Removing all moisture from the tank is absolutely critical!

My tank was done by the PO but if I were doing one I wouldn't hesitate to use the POR15 kit.

Gavin

Edited November 3, 2018 by KiwiTR6
spelling & grammar

[stuart]

12 hours ago, RogerH said:

 

There is no protective film from new.

 

Roger

I always thought the insides were Tinned.

Stuart.

[hot-growler]

Hi, I used the frost fuel tank sealer paint but without using the cleaner and metal prep first to save a bit of money. What a mistake. A couple of years on my car really struggled to start and the problem was found in the fuel filter. The paint had peeled off in large strips and blocked fuel flow. Several filters later and removal of the tank to remove as much as the paint as possible, the car is finally running well again.

Am not sure whether I would have had the peel if I had prepped the tank better, who knows?

Be careful...Steve.

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

25 minutes ago, stuart said:

I always thought the insides were Tinned.

Stuart.

Oxford Exhaust, who were the makers of fuel tanks in the 1990's for Classic Mini production track, & Unipart supply for spares of Morris Minor MGB, etc,  used a 'tinned' face steel for their production fuel tanks. 

Peter W

PS Does Ethanol eat lead/tin?

 

[stuart]

40 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Oxford Exhaust, who were the makers of fuel tanks in the 1990's for Classic Mini production track, & Unipart supply for spares of Morris Minor MGB, etc,  used a 'tinned' face steel for their production fuel tanks. 

Peter W

PS Does Ethanol eat lead/tin?

 

Thats what I thought. Ethanol is OK with Tin though dont know about lead.

Stuart.

[RogerH]

1 hour ago, stuart said:

I always thought the insides were Tinned.

Stuart.

Hi Stuart,

                  That is a surprise. I always thought that the tanks stayed reasonably clean because of the lead in the fuel.  

I thought the grey coating was the lead.

 

Roger

[Keith66]

Hi All

Thanks for the replies.

I've always be slightly dubious about mysterious solutions that claim to get rid of rust etc and I’ve read that the sealer type products don’t like modern fuels so much, but I would hope that the manufacturers update them to take care of this, but who knows.

So I think I’m going to take a two stage approach, agitate with some nuts and bolts to remove some of the heavy rust scale then put some of the Bilt Hamber or Frost Rust Remover in and see how it goes.

But one thing that does concern me slightly about any derusting process is post treatment rust, hence the question about if the original tanks had any rust inhibiting surface. Both the Bilt Hamber and Frost websites say how good the stuff is (which I’m sure are chemically similar), but the Bilt Hamber site says its better than blast cleaning as it avoids any grit residue “proven to cause early coating failure”, implying it needs a coating after treatment and the Frost site says “dry and fill with petrol immediately to eliminate flash rust”

So it’s how to keep flash rust at bay in a 1960’s detached garage, which isn’t damp but its not perfect. Maybe would be easier in a more modern integral garage.

So I’m thinking the fogging with WD40 (or similar) might help keep flash rust at bay and I’m assuming being a light oil will dissolve in petrol and just be burnt in the engine.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[RogerH]

Slosh 2 is resistant to ethanol.

DeOxC will remove rust deeper than mechanical - it gets into the grain structure (just about)

Rinse off with water and dry immediately.  Apply the Slosh asap after cleaning and prep.

 

You will not keep rust away on an unprotected surface.

WD40 has a limited protection life - not long.

 

Roger

[Nigel Triumph]

3 hours ago, RogerH said:

Slosh 2 is resistant to ethanol.

DeOxC will remove rust deeper than mechanical - it gets into the grain structure (just about)

Rinse off with water and dry immediately.  Apply the Slosh asap after cleaning and prep.

 

You will not keep rust away on an unprotected surface.

WD40 has a limited protection life - not long.

 

Roger

Roger beat me to it. The slosh kits sold by Frost these days are ethanol resistant.

Nigel

[john.r.davies]

The OPs pics didn't look too bad, but wouldn't a pressure test be indicated?    Radiator repair shops can do it, if you don't have an air line.

Would the 'slosh' recommended seal pin holes?

John

[Keith66]

Hi All

Sounds that the consensus is the tank isn't too bad and that modern sealants work ok once derusted.

I was only thinking of fogging with DW40 as a storage aid. Also thinking about manufacturers relying on the lead in petrol helping keep the rust at back when the cars were being produced, but that would not longer apply to a derusted tank.

So i think i'll give one of the derust chemicals a go and then seal it. I suppose even if it goes pear shaped in a few years i'm not worse off than i am now.

Anything to choose between the suppliers? Always notice that Bilt Hamber seem to win product awards in Autoexpress but i've no experience of them or Frost or Slosh for that matter.

Cheers

Keith

[astontr6]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 11:38 AM, stuart said:

Thats what I thought. Ethanol is OK with Tin though dont know about lead.

Stuart.

I know that this will upset a few people! The MOD test house QinetiQ says that the following materials are unsuitable/ not recommended for Bio based fuels: 

Zinc and galvanised materials.

Brass.

Copper.

Terne Plate lead/tin coated steel.

Aluminium.

Magnesium alloy.

Zamak 5

Therefore it does not look good for Alum. fuel tanks? It seems that E10 is far more aggressive in their testing than E5.

Bruce.

[Keith66]

Hi All

Thought I'd give a bit of an update on the very rusty inside of my fuel tank (see original pics)

After a lot of faffing about I’ve made some substantial progres, although not without issues.

So first I used cellulose spraying thinner to get rid of any old fuel residue, then agitated with a couple of kg’s of nuts and bolts to try to remove any loose stuff, but I couldn’t use ED’s automated cement mixer method as errr sadly I don’t have one round the back of the garage and by hand that was flippin hard work, well for at least 10 mins anyway.

But I did follow his recommendation of using phosphoric acid solution in the tank to remove the rust. I used 45% solution and as you can see from the pics it works pretty well (well miraculously really).

However one issue is that a 5L does not cover the fuel return pipe that goes into the swirl pot so as you can see from pic 2 its not clean.

So I get to do it all again with a bit more solution, Yeah!!

What fun.

Cheers

Keith

 

[Waldi]

Hi Keith,

thanks for sharing, that looks pretty effective. Once you are satisfied, make sure you fill the tank with clean water to neutralize the acid that has penetrated in the seams.

Waldi

[AarhusTr6]

Wow

That does look good.  Only concern I have is the overall thickness of the tank skin when rust is removed and the safety aspect of these old tanks if whacked from the side.  But thanks for sharing.

Rich

 

[Andy Moltu]

On 11/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, astontr6 said:

I know that this will upset a few people! The MOD test house QinetiQ says that the following materials are unsuitable/ not recommended for Bio based fuels: 

Zinc and galvanised materials.

Brass.

Copper.

Terne Plate lead/tin coated steel.

Aluminium.

Magnesium alloy.

Zamak 5

Therefore it does not look good for Alum. fuel tanks? It seems that E10 is far more aggressive in their testing than E5.

Bruce.

Will we have to worry about E10 soon - it won't be our problem to burn the wine lake?

[astontr6]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 10:56 AM, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

Oxford Exhaust, who were the makers of fuel tanks in the 1990's for Classic Mini production track, & Unipart supply for spares of Morris Minor MGB, etc,  used a 'tinned' face steel for their production fuel tanks. 

Peter W

PS Does Ethanol eat lead/tin?

According to the MOD Test House for E10 lead/tin coated steel is not suitable, nor is aluminium?

Bruce.

 

 

 

[Waldi]

9 hours ago, AarhusTr6 said:

Wow

That does look good.  Only concern I have is the overall thickness of the tank skin when rust is removed and the safety aspect of these old tanks if whacked from the side.  But thanks for sharing.

Rich

 

Hi Rich,

corrosion (rust) on carbon steel increases in thickness by a factor 10 or so.

The real issue is localized pitting. I did not internally coat mine after cleaning because I was afraid the coating would dissolve when using E5/10, but here I see an advantage for using an internal coating. My tank internal surface looked pretty “shiny”, and after readings Peter’s comment I also understand why:)

Waldi