Poor repro brake cylinder

[ijonsson]

When checking on rear brakes I discovered that the new brake cylinder had leaked and soaked the brake shoes . Brake shoes  are so expensive as exchange parts, considering shipping from and to Sweden. Maybe someone knows where to buy just the lining and the rivets?

I found at least 3 pores in the sealing area of the brake cylinder, compared it with and old saved cylinder and the old one looked better so I installed that one instead of buying a new. The old one has a more complicated design/better design with a separate piston for the handbrake and a spring behind the actual brake piston.

Also discovered that I had fitted the backplate 45 deg wrong and the cylinder 180 deg wrong probably causing only one brake shoe working as the cylinder was unable to slide enough, fitted in that position (a bit ashamed now)

And how it should look, used brake shoes nicked from (probably) an old Volvo, just adjusted the length in one end and drilled some new holes for the springs. Exactly same diameter and width.

 

Edited November 1, 2018 by ijonsson

[Lebro]

Well done !

 

Bob.

[Mick Forey]

You might consider raising this a a parts quality issue: https://www.tr-register.co.uk/pqi as defective brakes are definitely a safety issue. 

Mick

[TwinCamJohn]

In the past I have used a blowlamp to burn off oil or brake fluid from the linings. The brakes have been fine afterwards.

[RogerH]

DOT3 & 4 should respond to a prolonged water wash.

DOT 5 throw in the bin.

 

Roger

[james christie]

I have found rear brake cylinders have a bad habit of leaking if you don't use them frequently. Long Winter layups aggravate this. The result is oily brake shoes. I change everything - complete cylinders and the shoes, expensive, but it is a safety issue. 

Yes I suppose I should have filled out a parts quality form.

 

james

[Richardtr3a]

The best move with hydraulic cylinders is to take your original, and make sure that it is original, and send it to Past Parts who will machine it and fit a stainless steel liner and a proper seal.

A forum user in the USA carried out a comparison of new and original by cutting the cylinders and scanning the internal surface microscopically. The new one was very inferior and rough. and made from poor quality steel.

It is best to refurb the old one.

Good luck Richard

[ijonsson]

Will do that, new Lockheed MC has a slight leak in clutch piston, so original MC will be refurbished soon.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

On 1 November 2018 at 12:42 PM, ijonsson said:

When checking on rear brakes I discovered that the new brake cylinder had leaked and soaked the brake shoes . Brake shoes  are so expensive as exchange parts, considering shipping from and to Sweden. Maybe someone knows where to buy just the lining and the rivets?

I found at least 3 pores in the sealing area of the brake cylinder, compared it with and old saved cylinder and the old one looked better so I installed that one instead of buying a new. The old one has a more complicated design/better design with a separate piston for the handbrake and a spring behind the actual brake piston.

Also discovered that I had fitted the backplate 45 deg wrong and the cylinder 180 deg wrong probably causing only one brake shoe working as the cylinder was unable to slide enough, fitted in that position (a bit ashamed now)

And how it should look, used brake shoes nicked from (probably) an old Volvo, just adjusted the length in one end and drilled some new holes for the springs. Exactly same diameter and width.

 

Have you searched on the web for clutch and brake reclining and bonding service. Trucks trailers and agricultural vehicles will usually choose that route of repair. We have a few reliving services in UK. Perhaps you can find a similar service in  Sweden.

As your car is long door are the rear shoes the correct smaller size rather than the same size as the fronts?  9" x 1 3/4"  rather than 10" X 2 1/4".  9" X 1 3/4" is same dimension  as TR4-6 rear shoes friction material.  The shoe Assembly is not directly interchangeable. Lockheed to Girling make being the difference.

 

Peter W

PS I have one only NOS Lockheed rear wheel cylinder for TR 2 if you are stuck.

[ijonsson]

....story continued, today I discovered a massive leak in the other side rear brake cylinder (lasted two years from new) thanks to Peter W I had a NOS cylinder ready to go in, so car is ready for road again. The quality of those repro cylinders is really poor! State of paint of inside rim is awful. http://www.ijonsson.se/tr2/photos/updates/IMG_20190714_155508.jpg

http://www.ijonsson.se/tr2/photos/updates/IMG_20190714_155523.jpg

Edited July 14, 2019 by ijonsson

[TwinCamJohn]

Where did these cylinders come from ? Presumably China, but which company ?

[ijonsson]

11 hours ago, TwinCamJohn said:

Where did these cylinders come from ? Presumably China, but which company ?

I bought them from Rimmers late 2016, drove the car first time spring 2018, first one started leaking last autumn and the second one now. And this is what the seal looks and what it looks inside. Pitting in the cylinder wall and scored rubber seal.

Edited July 15, 2019 by ijonsson

[TwinCamJohn]

They are probably all made by the same manufacturer.

I am sure I speak for many when I state that I would be happy to pay, say 25% more, for an item to be made properly.

[Graham]

1 hour ago, TwinCamJohn said:

They are probably all made by the same manufacturer.

I am sure I speak for many when I state that I would be happy to pay, say 25% more, for an item to be made properly.

+1 Its not just you have to pay twice to do the job its the time spent re fitting components sometimes only weeks old, plus in my case a leaking brand new master cylinder ruined a bare metal respray ................not annoyed at all.

[Hamish]

21 hours ago, Graham said:

+1 Its not just you have to pay twice to do the job its the time spent re fitting components sometimes only weeks old, plus in my case a leaking brand new master cylinder ruined a bare metal respray ................not annoyed at all.

+1

for me it’s the fact they are for brakes !!!!!!

they should be 100% 

[Graham]

7 hours ago, Hamish said:

+1

for me it’s the fact they are for brakes !!!!!!

they should be 100% 

Hamish, I buy 'stuff' for a big UK utility and we have to jump through a LOT of hoops before we spend a penny on anything. I suspect that the reason we get the cr@p components we are suffering is because (some off, lets be generous) the retailers simply go to a manufacturer with a widget and say how much to make me one of these, No specification, no real statement of requirements. The manufacturer looks at the widget and makes something that looks like the original but may have no idea of its use even and quotes a price. The retailer says 'Oh thats far to expensive" so the manufacturer goes back to the drawing board to see where they can further reduce costs. Once the retailer believes he has the manufacturer at rock bottom price a deal is struck. I was told that at one time steering racks were being landed at £18 each from a supplier ! so no wonder we have issues.

Or is this just me being cynical ...................................

[RogerH]

Hi Graham,

 cynical, you !!! surely not.

I think it is actually more convoluted than that.

Some expensive items that are relatively simple to make can go pear shaped - TR6 gearbox lay shaft - so simple, such a cock up.

Obviously both the retailer and the manufacturer are out to make a handsome profit. neither do this but are happy with the outcome. 

So why does it go wrong - lack of specification, or understanding.

The biggest issue in my mind is Quality Control as they come off the conveyor belt.  Clearly the slave cylinders above were never adequately inspected.

But then how do you carry out quality control - dimensionally and visually inspect every 100th item, or every 10th item or every item.

Clearly there is a price to pay. The above blow holes are not normally expected so would you look for them.

The above items should be returned to the manufacturer so they can understand either the metal characteristics or the process or their inspection regime.

 

WE have the PQI available to us but is not being used enough.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

[Graham]

2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Graham,

 cynical, you !!! surely not.

I think it is actually more convoluted than that.

Some expensive items that are relatively simple to make can go pear shaped - TR6 gearbox lay shaft - so simple, such a cock up.

Obviously both the retailer and the manufacturer are out to make a handsome profit. neither do this but are happy with the outcome. 

So why does it go wrong - lack of specification, or understanding.

The biggest issue in my mind is Quality Control as they come off the conveyor belt.  Clearly the slave cylinders above were never adequately inspected.

But then how do you carry out quality control - dimensionally and visually inspect every 100th item, or every 10th item or every item.

Clearly there is a price to pay. The above blow holes are not normally expected so would you look for them.

The above items should be returned to the manufacturer so they can understand either the metal characteristics or the process or their inspection regime.

 

WE have the PQI available to us but is not being used enough.

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

With my cynical hat on again I suspect it makes more financial sense for a supplier to accept a failure rate of 1 in 50 and have to replace it FOC than it does to ensure/pay for 100 percent right first time .............

[RogerH]

Hi Graham,

    I think you simplify it it too much. 

For certain items failure can be accepted but I would have thought any manufacturer and then retailer would

be in serious poo if they were found to be negligent with brae parts.

So 1 in 50 being acceptable is adventurous to say the least for a brake part.

Take a big manufacturer like Ford or GM. They would spend a fortune on R&D to show that a material and design is up to the job.

QA & QC would confirm the process. So they press on churning out 10,000's or items with a limited QC to interfere. Feedback of a problem would stop this in its tracks 

(hence car recalls) 

The far eastern manufacturers of our cheap parts use the correct materials (industry standard) and as long as the process is good then there shouldn't be an issue.

Thus if we the consumer find an issue then we should report it.  We are the manufacturers QA & QC department

 

Roger