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Rear Hub Bearings . In a Pickle


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Dear all

I am in a bit of a pickle here and am going in mental circles.  I posted some time back that my mechanic said I needed a rear wheel bearing.  As I drive, it is evidently clear this is an issue and slowly getting worse, so I put it down as a winter job.  It seems now my mechanic whilst a good bloke is not skilled to do this job and I found this out when he said the work would be done using a 3 leg puller and from reading this forum, that is a no-go and you need a special tool that looks like a top hat. 

since then, I bought a nice Timkin bearing kit and this is now in my shed . . not doing much...

So the more I read on this, the more I read of this not being a DiY job and also that I should replace also the stub axle as it is 50 yrs old and they do snap due to cracks  (if that's the right term for this axle) and others suggest buying a full hub kit which I guess is an option and within the skillset of my mechanic to fit. . however having spent a pile of dosh on these top end Timkin Kits I am unsure if I buy a hub kit, what do I do with the Timkins  - and I assume these Timkins are the top end of the scale in quality.

Last but not least I have to use local every day mechanics and that means not a lot (any) with Triumph experience but shipping or getting parts to UK is an option.

Thanks to all out there who always seem to have help for me,

Rich

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Get an exchange unit; even if you manage to separate the taper on the hub, which you will never do with a puller (you need a 5 ton press), a very high % get damaged in the process. Setting up the internal collapsible collar which separates the taper bearing is also tricky as the bearings must be pre-loaded , over tighten the nut & you'll be back to square 1.

Edited by Richard Crawley
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Hi Rich,

                  replacing the bearings in the hub is not a DIY job in the normal sense. It requires the correct puller and most garages do not have them.

You can use a big press but this may irreversibly damage the hub flange.  Definitely not a three legged puller job.

I have Moss hubs fitted to my 4A  since April 2017 and are still running very well after apprx 20,000 miles. 

I would recommend a new hubs (even if the bearings sound good the stub axle is still 50 years old).

 

Put your Timkens on ebay

 

Roger

PS - Hi Richard. Just read your post. The problem with a refurb'd hub is that it will probably still have the original 50 year old stub axle.

One of my chums had such a hub.Last year after six years of reasonable touring type driving the axle snapped - bad news on the body work.

Edited by RogerH
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Hi

so with the wonder of hindsight the purchase of these TIMKEN kits (£180..) was not such a good idea and I should have just bought a full hub kit, or am I mistaken ?

Rich

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.

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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Just now, Motorsport Mickey said:

Hi Rich,

Stags share the same "Innsbruck" design rear hub and stub axle problems (and they drive like Nuns wearing slippers), there are some there who have replaced with exchange units and a number of those posters have found to their cost that this can happenpost-6602-0-94386600-1531209723_thumb.jpg and then after 18 months to the other side post-6602-0-51970200-1531209921.jpgboth were exchange units bought at the same time, how lucky do you feel ?

This isn't even a tough choice, fit new hubs with their preset up advantages and bearings.

Mick Richards  

 

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47 minutes ago, AarhusTr6 said:

Dear all

I am in a bit of a pickle here and am going in mental circles.  I posted some time back that my mechanic said I needed a rear wheel bearing.  As I drive, it is evidently clear this is an issue and slowly getting worse, so I put it down as a winter job.  It seems now my mechanic whilst a good bloke is not skilled to do this job and I found this out when he said the work would be done using a 3 leg puller and from reading this forum, that is a no-go and you need a special tool that looks like a top hat. 

since then, I bought a nice Timkin bearing kit and this is now in my shed . . not doing much...

So the more I read on this, the more I read of this not being a DiY job and also that I should replace also the stub axle as it is 50 yrs old and they do snap due to cracks  (if that's the right term for this axle) and others suggest buying a full hub kit which I guess is an option and within the skillset of my mechanic to fit. . however having spent a pile of dosh on these top end Timkin Kits I am unsure if I buy a hub kit, what do I do with the Timkins  - and I assume these Timkins are the top end of the scale in quality.

Last but not least I have to use local every day mechanics and that means not a lot (any) with Triumph experience but shipping or getting parts to UK is an option.

Thanks to all out there who always seem to have help for me,

Rich

Hi Rich,

+1 This is as Roger says and do not buy a recon hub, for reasons already given, only use a brand new hub assembly. The correct tool to split the hub was made by Churchill and I have never seen one up for sale. Lastly while you have the drive shaft out, check the splines for wear and only use black grease to lube it and for the U/J's as well.

Bruce.

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The Churchill tool as used by Triumph and Leyland dealers of old come up occasionally on e bay, the last one I saw sold for something over £300 ! and unless you ate doing regularly that's an expensive paperweight ! 

There's been discussion on the Stag forum about this and some feedback has been had from ex dealership employees who said something along the lines of "what do you think we did back in the day then ? they were often split for bearing or other work" which brought back the retort "yes but they were only 4 or 5 years old then, would you fancy replacing bearings and then guaranteeing the hubs and stub axles which are now 40 years old"  ? much sucking of teeth and no reply.

Fit new hubs. 

Mick Richards

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56 minutes ago, AarhusTr6 said:

Hi

so with the wonder of hindsight the purchase of these TIMKEN kits (£180..) was not such a good idea and I should have just bought a full hub kit, or am I mistaken ?

Rich

Hi Rich,

          I share your grief. I have also done expensive things. I too have a repair set of bearings going back about 18 years.

I would still buy a NEW hub. both Moss and Bastuck manufacture them. 

I am using the Moss item and it works well *** . I have not tried or seen a Bastuck hub

 

**As a word of warning.

The typical Moss hub is on the tight side. I investigated what they were doing and had to admit that what they do is workable.

It is not according to the workshop manual BUT did ST every achieve  what the WSM says about bearing end float. 

A poster on here had a  Bastuck hub that had way to much end float. This may not be typical of their product though.

 

My investigation into the stiff Moss hub had me looking at three old hubs that I have had in my garage for some time.

Two of the hubs that were apprx 50 years old spun easily by hand but had NO end float. I made a jig to pull and push - there was NO end float

The third hub had apprx 0.010" end float.

 

Roger

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2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Rich,

                  replacing the bearings in the hub is not a DIY job in the normal sense. It requires the correct puller and most garages do not have them.

You can use a big press but this may irreversibly damage the hub flange.  Definitely not a three legged puller job.

I have Moss hubs fitted to my 4A  since April 2017 and are still running very well after apprx 20,000 miles. 

I would recommend a new hubs (even if the bearings sound good the stub axle is still 50 years old).

 

Put your Timkens on ebay

 

Roger

PS - Hi Richard. Just read your post. The problem with a refurb'd hub is that it will probably still have the original 50 year old stub axle.

One of my chums had such a hub.Last year after six years of reasonable touring type driving the axle snapped - bad news on the body work.

That's a good point which I hadn't considered, I don't know how many failures there have been in recent years but it wasn't a problem in years past. I suppose  many recon hubs have been through the refurbishment process many times now which I suppose won't do the major hub components much good. My own hub situation is one reconditioned unit purchased in the 90's for my total restoration project & one original hub which, as I bought the 1971, 40k mile car around 3 years old, was most probably fitted to the car when new. This hub does develop a little play from time to time which I can tweak out on the back nut but it always comes loose again after a while & I suspect that someone (not me) has overcooked the collapsible spacer at some time as if I take all the play out, the hub bearings are then too tight!

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Hi Richard,

           interesting - what is too tight (for the bearings)

Engineers know that back to back taper bearings should have a small amount of play.

ST WSM state 0.003 to 0.004" for the hubs (I think)  yet Moss can not achieve this (they have built 100's of new and refurb'd hubs with no failures) 
My own very old unrebuilt hubs have NO play.

 

Could ST actually get within their tolerance - I now suspect not.

 

Roger

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20 minutes ago, michael pridham said:

Hi,

Replaced my old hubs recently with Quaife units fit and forget.

 

Michael

+1 me too.  Hopefully they are fit and forget (especially considering the price - but what price for peace of mind?).

 

cheers

 

dave

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1 hour ago, RogerH said:

Hi Richard,

           interesting - what is too tight (for the bearings)

Engineers know that back to back taper bearings should have a small amount of play.

ST WSM state 0.003 to 0.004" for the hubs (I think)  yet Moss can not achieve this (they have built 100's of new and refurb'd hubs with no failures) 
My own very old unrebuilt hubs have NO play.

 

Could ST actually get within their tolerance - I now suspect not.

 

Roger

Roger I know where you are coming from! But are Moss using the same bearings as GKN used in production? A lot of the exact correct types of bearings are now out of production. The dreaded word 'Now obsolete, 'comes to my mind. This was also one of the reasons why I went to CVs. All those numbers and letters on the outside of a bearing race mean something to do with the spec. of the bearing. This very much applies to Diff. bearings as well, some of which are also now obsolete. My 1970's SKF Cat. lists the following bearings for the TR4 A & TR6 rear hub: Inner K-L44649+K-L44610, Outer K-LM 29729+K-LM29710, are these the same or equivalent, as to what Moss are using?

Bruce.

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I fitted Cosworth hubs many years ago and when My TR5 was involved with the 2007 floods and submerged half way in  river and **** I had to rebuild the Cosworth hubs with new timken bearings and it was an easy task to do.I had to redo other things as you can imagine. I have now fitted the excellent new hubs and CV joints of Classic Driving Developments around  a year ago. Nothing wrong with the Cosworth stuff I just wanted to go down the CV joint route.

We have had failures in original hubs and stub axles in NLG so stay well clear of rebuilt ones no matter how well they are done.

Don't think the original designers intended them to last this long which is a testament to their design team.

Fit new and be done with it.

Regards Harry

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Rich

Do not go for reconditioned hubs as many have suggested here

One of our locak group members had his nearside rear wheel come off in the last 2 weeks at 70mph on th A12  - very fortunate nor to have a big crash - cause was the hub breaking under the big nut

He had bought a reconditioned hub 18 months ago from a well known TR Supplier and he had only done about a 1000 miles - he wont be doing that again.

I've also researched the various options for replacing with new kit, both standard and uprated, and you will find that replacing with decent quality standard driveshafts and hubs will cost just as much as the CV jointed set up from CDD - in my view thats a no brainer - CDD can also supply uprated rear hubs and driveshafts if you want  but they cost a lot more thsn the CV versions.

By the way, I have no connection wiuth CDD 

Give me a call if you want 

cheers

Rich

 

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2 hours ago, RogerH said:

Hi Richard,

           interesting - what is too tight (for the bearings)

Roger

Yes; you should be able to take out the end float by adjusting the rear adjustment nut but you have to be really careful not to overdo it as there is a collapsible spacer between the bearings, if  over tighten the nut,the bearings will be too tight & you then have to replace the spacer. If I take the nut up where the bearings contact the spacer, the hub is too tight &, looking at the tab washer, someone had obviously had a go before me but overdid it & collapsed the spacer too much. All I can do is take up the bearing slack & pene the tab washer over again but it keeps moving back again with use. It always ends up in the same place again but the MOT tester has never been bothered by it as the play is very minimal & just lists it as a notification. I've been intending to replace the hub for years but it's such a PITA to replace, I keep putting it off!

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Hi Bruce,

        I have no information on the bearings that Moss use.

I do know that when I returned a new hub with an issue the hub was stripped and the bearings binned even though they looked in new condition.

New bearings fitted at some expense.

For the last 18 months I have kept an eye on these hubs to see that they stay as they are and not failing - so far so good.

 

Regarding which drive system is best to use - ST Hub or CV - then I think that the ST Hub has experience and time on its side.

The CV shaft is a well proven design in areas it was designed for. But !! were they designed for the rear end of a TR. There have been failures. Time will tell. So far so good.

 

Roger 

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So it seems we have a few different choices when buying new hubs, Moss, TR shop ,TR trader...i notice the price varies quite a bit,,,i wonder why and which ones are the best, or are they all the same,,,any views on that ?

I have a complete nut and bolt restoration and cant quite relax with the original hubs/ maybe recons, still fitted and am going to replace them asap. but its difficult to know which ones to choose ?

Len

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In the grand scheme of an expensive nut and bolt rebuild I always prefer the Cosworth hubs and new Proptech shafts, you wont break them and even if you have the unfortunate experience that Harry had with flooding its very easy to replace the bearings in the Cosworth hubs.

Stuart.

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I fitted the new  Bastuck hubs and the they appear fine, checked the nut torque after 500 miles and they didn’t need any further adjustment.

Can you still get Cosworth units?

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4 hours ago, stuart said:

Just my experience of spending serious money using quite a few items from Quaife over the years from diffs, gearboxes and gearbox kits etc is don't bother give your money to someone else if possible. They never seemed to last the course with one very respected gearbox builder in my neck of the woods not willing to use their offerings.

Great shame as a UK company.

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12 hours ago, PodOne said:

Just my experience of spending serious money using quite a few items from Quaife over the years from diffs, gearboxes and gearbox kits etc is don't bother give your money to someone else if possible. They never seemed to last the course with one very respected gearbox builder in my neck of the woods not willing to use their offerings.

Great shame as a UK company.

Possibly, I cant comment on that I just use their hubs as they are bomb proof.

Stuart.

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