monty Posted September 27, 2018 Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 Around 350 miles ago the water pump which had been on the car for at least 10k miles started leaking from the hole underneath & I noticed a loss of coolant from the radiator. I replaced the unit with a freshly rebuilt quality bearing unit which has also now started to leak after only 30 miles, with the same kind of dribble from the same hole. No different symptoms from the first pump. As well as the water dribble I noticed that around a minute or so after stopping the engine there were a couple of spurts of water out of the hole as if under a bit of pressure? The pump supplier has said that the first failure was due to the new bearings not settling in properly due to perhaps some loosened debris from the engine, maybe a little bit of dislodged rusty stuff? The engine was completely rebuilt around 12k miles ago & is fitted with an alloy radiator & the coolant is very clean & has been thoroughly flushed about 2 years ago with no debris appearing then. Any ideas? If these steel items are failing, even so-called quality items, should I go to an expensive billet alloy unit? Has anybody any experience of the alloy pump & how does it react with say a steel housing? Thanks. t Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Freer Posted September 27, 2018 Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 Hi Monty Last year I replaced my steel water pump with the aluminium Racetorations version. We were about to embark on the Paris-Prague rally. The original one wasn't leaking but the bearing felt very rough. I didn't want to take the chance of it failing on the rally. I know I could have done a replacement more cheaply. I was prepared to pay the price for peace of mind. Since the rally we have done 10k or so and about to add another 2k by doing the RBRR next week. I guess you need to weigh up the pros and cons of regularly replacing pumps and the buggeration it involves. But I'm confident that the water pump won't let us down at 0200h in the Welsh Marches on Sunday morning. (it might be something else of course!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 24 minutes ago, Ben Freer said: Hi Monty Last year I replaced my steel water pump with the aluminium Racetorations version. We were about to embark on the Paris-Prague rally. The original one wasn't leaking but the bearing felt very rough. I didn't want to take the chance of it failing on the rally. I know I could have done a replacement more cheaply. I was prepared to pay the price for peace of mind. Since the rally we have done 10k or so and about to add another 2k by doing the RBRR next week. I guess you need to weigh up the pros and cons of regularly replacing pumps and the buggeration it involves. But I'm confident that the water pump won't let us down at 0200h in the Welsh Marches on Sunday morning. (it might be something else of course!) Thanks Ben. I tend to feel as you do & am prepared to pay more for the Racetorations product if it is the cure. Did you replace the housing also or just the pump & pulley? Somebody mentioned somewhere the other day about mixing alloy with steel. Is that a problem bearing in mind there is a gasket between the 2 metals. What gasket sealant did you use by the way? Regards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Freer Posted September 27, 2018 Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 Well I just replaced the pump and pulley. The latter being unnecessary as I already had one. Now spare/looking for a new home. Whilst I'm aware of the aluminium/iron issue, where do you stop!? The housing mates to the head. Can't recall the sealant I used.....it was red!(sorry). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 Ben, According to their website the pulley on the alloy pump is a different fitting as it is a push on fit without the woodruff key to match a key way on the standard pulley. I also have a nice alloy pulley already but if I go for the alloy pump I shall need a different item, so another spare pulley! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2018 The water pump people are saying 2 failures like this are unprecedented & think it is something else like maybe head problems causing maybe over pressurisation? Car shows no signs of head problems that I can see & did a 30 - 40 mile run today like a dream. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Monty was the repairer E-P as I am just about to send in a coupe of pumps for refurbishment.....don't want to if these are not doing the job. Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Hi Monty, water pumps can be a mine field. Do you buy the cheapest. Is the cheapest any different form a more expensive one. Do you buy uprated - more vanes etc The ali body is useful for the racing boys - weight saving . This shouldn't interact to badly with steel. Multi vane pumps have their following but do they work. reports suggest they are no better. When my pump failed in late July I popped along to the TRShop and found their standard pump was identical to the one that failed. So I bought it and fitted it. The failed pump lasted 10+ years = +100,000 miles. It is worth carrying a spare for long/important runs but make sure it can fit. The standard fitment is to have a bolt in a position that is trapped by the pulley. Most folk replace the bolt with a stud in the block. So either have a spare with a bolt fitted or have a stud in the block with no bolt fited in the pump. How do I know all this - Hmmmmm Before you fit the new pump compare the depth of the impellor with the depth of the body. You may find a significant gap on the back face. This needs packing out. Mine checked out to be better than a 1mm gap - so I left it alone. Roger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Yes Iain it was I am afraid. They are saying that for 2 pumps on the same car to fail like this is unknown & are blaming it on something else. Having said that they did say that they found on the first one that the bearing had not sealed properly due to a bit of foreign material in there (whatever that means). They are very helpful & the pumps are under warranty but does not help me with repeated removal & still a leak! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, RogerH said: Hi Monty, water pumps can be a mine field. Do you buy the cheapest. Is the cheapest any different form a more expensive one. Do you buy uprated - more vanes etc The ali body is useful for the racing boys - weight saving . This shouldn't interact to badly with steel. Multi vane pumps have their following but do they work. reports suggest they are no better. When my pump failed in late July I popped along to the TRShop and found their standard pump was identical to the one that failed. So I bought it and fitted it. The failed pump lasted 10+ years = +100,000 miles. It is worth carrying a spare for long/important runs but make sure it can fit. The standard fitment is to have a bolt in a position that is trapped by the pulley. Most folk replace the bolt with a stud in the block. So either have a spare with a bolt fitted or have a stud in the block with no bolt fited in the pump. How do I know all this - Hmmmmm Before you fit the new pump compare the depth of the impellor with the depth of the body. You may find a significant gap on the back face. This needs packing out. Mine checked out to be better than a 1mm gap - so I left it alone. Roger No Roger I certainly did not buy the cheapest & am considering the expensive billet alloy item from Racetorations as it is of a different design & bearing wise but at a loss really to why 2 have failed so quickly. The original had been on the car for at least 12k miles & started leaking grease some while ago. When it started spraying blobs of grease under the bonnet I replaced with a recon one which lasted 300 miles although I suspect it was seeping water from new. The replacement for that is immediately leaking water & even a spurt of water shortly after stopping the engine ( water pressure?) (no grease leak). Do not know what to do next. Would buy the alloy unit if it was definitely going to solve the leak but £260+ to hope! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RogerH Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Hi Monty, ask yourself the question - how can the pump casing cause a leak. The leak is coming from the 'tell tale' and so past the seals. Assuming you have the correct rad cap and it is not seized shut, then the only problem area is the pump itself. Why not buy a standard pump from TRShop (not a lot of money) and see what happens. Roger PS - I do not have shares in the TRShop Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Graham Harris Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 Have you checked to see if the fan belt is not too tight? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Graham Harris said: Have you checked to see if the fan belt is not too tight? Yes Graham & it looks & feels fine. Has been off & refitted 2 or 3 times in the past couple of months & is almost new.Just changed the 7lb rad cap to see if that makes a difference. An engine builder friend is wondering if it is a head gasket causing pressure in th system? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctc77965o Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 the system doesnt have a great deal of flow...so pressure somewhere is pressure everywhere in the cooling system. The water pump water/pressure seal should withstand much more than the rad cap 7lbs or 14lbs... i think this is the wrong tree to bark. Leaky water pumps are badly made. I must admit to having inherited a waterpump of unknown heritage in 1989...since then i've done 150K+ miles and numerous 'stress' events like head gasket fail, burnt valve, dead cam etc..never had a waterpump leak...tempting fate completely I know...400km to Kuala Lumpur tomorrow in 30+ heat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tim hunt Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 I'm with Dave, In September 1978 I noticed a leak from my 4A water pump (original type) and replaced it ready for the RBRR the next month. The new pump failed in Scotland and I had to be Relayed home. The supplying dealer did replace the pump under warranty. For 40 years since I have always carried a spare pump but never needed in on my car, although on two occasions I have helped out other entrants on an event. My current pump has now done around 200k miles with no issues whatsoever. I don't care if I am tempting fate since I still have the spare on board, with pressed on pulley and the three stud fixing so changing it would be quite a quick job. Tim From 5-7 October I will take part in my 22nd Club Triumph RBRR in the 4A. This time we are raising funds for Epilepsy Research UK. If anyone would like to support team 74 our web page is www.justgiving.com/tim-hunt4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndyR100 Posted September 28, 2018 Report Share Posted September 28, 2018 I swapped out a sieve (aka, duff water pump) for a regular one from Moss.... all good since ....... Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tr4aJim Posted September 29, 2018 Report Share Posted September 29, 2018 (edited) I have not had any issues with the water pump on my TR4a (touches wood). However over the winter I’m going to install a narrow belt kit. Not knowing the age or inner condition of the pump, is it prudent to also pull the pump and have it reconditioned, or should I abide by the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” rule, and leave well enough alone? thanks, Jim Edited September 29, 2018 by Tr4aJim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2018 Don't touch it would be my advice! Pretty easy to change later if it fails which it probably will! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2018 I was hoping I might get some feedback on this problem from Motorsport Mickey or Tom Boyd as they have competition experience! How do these water pumps stand up to Motorsport use? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Boyd Posted September 29, 2018 Report Share Posted September 29, 2018 43 minutes ago, monty said: I was hoping I might get some feedback on this problem from Motorsport Mickey or Tom Boyd as they have competition experience! How do these water pumps stand up to Motorsport use? There was a problem with water pumps from a certain supplier maybe 18 months ago.... leaking past thecseals. This was resolved and since then we have had no issues and non reported to us. The Racetorations uprated super duper water pump is fantastic, pricey but very good. We continue to fit 'standard' water pumps to all our cars, standard to full race.. Tom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
North London Mike Posted September 29, 2018 Report Share Posted September 29, 2018 LNK has had 5 water pumps in 12 yrs and 50,000 miles, one was a pin hole in the 50 yr old housing, changed out the whole thing. One went in italy, bearing failed, changed in the car park (had spare), two were Tom's bad batch, leaking out of the bottom hole, failed within a couple of weeks of each other. Both replaced under warranty (thanks Tom) 'GOOD' replacement still going strong. Spare, complete with pulley, in tank cavity. Easy fix, three bolts but it is a weak link, been on a few tours where a TR has had an issue.............. so carry a spare Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2018 15 hours ago, Tom Boyd said: There was a problem with water pumps from a certain supplier maybe 18 months ago.... leaking past thecseals. This was resolved and since then we have had no issues and non reported to us. The Racetorations uprated super duper water pump is fantastic, pricey but very good. We continue to fit 'standard' water pumps to all our cars, standard to full race.. Tom Thanks for that Tom. I wonder if I have been supplied old stock (your 18 months scenario?) as both recent pumps have immediately leaked past the seals! Could you possibly send me a PM with the suppliers name? What are your thoughts of the over pressurisation theory? I have a respected race technician checking for head gasket leakage next week. Regards. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
iain Posted September 30, 2018 Report Share Posted September 30, 2018 I thought you said the pumps were rebuilt by EP in Northamptonshire that’s is your pump rebuilt? Yes/No. Please can you clarify Monty. Thanks Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2018 4 hours ago, iain said: I thought you said the pumps were rebuilt by EP in Northamptonshire that’s is your pump rebuilt? Yes/No. Please can you clarify Monty. Thanks Iain 4 hours ago, iain said: I thought you said the pumps were rebuilt by EP in Northamptonshire that’s is your pump rebuilt? Yes/No. Please can you clarify Monty. Thanks Iain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monty Posted September 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2018 On an exchange basis Iain, from EP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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