FND 205F

[stuart]

Here's another one quite misleading until you get to the bottom of the advert, https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1020816

 

Cheers

 

Dave.

And no MOT history despite the ad saying that it has been tested 9 times.

DVLA need to start doing something about this blatant miss representation with the disparity of values.

Stuart.

Edited July 31, 2018 by stuart

[roy53]

About 2 years i was asked to check this car out at a south coast TR dealer/garage.When walking upto the car i said i think i know this vehicle is it not a TR250 converted to rh drive TR6 Pi [ not 5 ] and was openly told well yes but it is all original panels no repro,and i bet it is more 5 than most out there. Lets say we didn't agree. What was also disturbing was that he said that if it was not sold by the end of the week it was going to another TR specialist to be sold on commission basis .It was also said that is why i am only asking £40000 and not top TR5 money.

I was upset by the fact that they are both trusted TR specialists.Or is it were.

I like 250's as much as 5's and have both but a 250 on injection is not a 5 and a 5 on carbs is not a 250

 

Roy

[MikeThomas]

Stuart & Roy

 

Started a new thread on this one as it is equally as important and this one is getting full.

 

See XYY 332F - 250 posing as a 5 https://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/66859-xyy-332f-250-posing-as-a-5/

Edited July 31, 2018 by MikeThomas

[mafield]

About 2 years i was asked to check this car out at a south coast TR dealer/garage.When walking upto the car i said i think i know this vehicle is it not a TR250 converted to rh drive TR6 Pi [ not 5 ] and was openly told well yes but it is all original panels no repro,and i bet it is more 5 than most out there. Lets say we didn't agree. What was also disturbing was that he said that if it was not sold by the end of the week it was going to another TR specialist to be sold on commission basis .It was also said that is why i am only asking £40000 and not top TR5 money.

I was upset by the fact that they are both trusted TR specialists.Or is it were.

I like 250's as much as 5's and have both but a 250 on injection is not a 5 and a 5 on carbs is not a 250

 

Roy

 

Why don't you name them, so we are all aware.

If so called TR Specialists are also touting cars that are not what their made out to be, there is no hope for the individual!

 

Michael.

[MikeThomas]

Why don't you name them, so we are all aware.

If so called TR Specialists are also touting cars that are not what their made out to be, there is no hope for the individual!

 

Michael.

 

 

 

Michael we're on a new thread re this 250

 

Best wishes,

Mike

[oldtuckunder]

Only because I like asking questions,

 

But if I had a genuine UK RHD TR5 that is a complete rot box, and I buy a new CTM Chassis, and I import a better body shell from the USA, and I add some new repro panels, and rebuild the car with recon engine and gearbox is it still a TR5?

 

How much can one replace over time and the vehicle still be genuine, as opposed to how much can be replace in one go and still be genuine?

 

Or are we saying that the only thing that makes a car genuine is the existence of a V5 for a particular model car produced by the factory?

 

Alan

[michaeldavis39]

I saw a 'TR5' at NEC on a dealers stand and noticed many annomalies that gave the game away that it had been a TR250 - when I pointed some things out to the dealers salesman I was given a very curt bullshit story and made to feel very unwelcome! If I see another one in future I will tell you who it is- naming and shaming will stop these what do you call someone who's trying to rip decent people off without swearing chaps

[Bill Bourne]

Only because I like asking questions,

 

But if I had a genuine UK RHD TR5 that is a complete rot box, and I buy a new CTM Chassis, and I import a better body shell from the USA, and I add some new repro panels, and rebuild the car with recon engine and gearbox is it still a TR5?

 

How much can one replace over time and the vehicle still be genuine, as opposed to how much can be replace in one go and still be genuine?

 

Or are we saying that the only thing that makes a car genuine is the existence of a V5 for a particular model car produced by the factory?

 

Alan

My opinion is, that if you use the original heritage/registration cert - If you like it's birth certificate as it came from the factory. It is what is is. It cannot be anything else, no matter how many changes you make to it. The main thread of all of the above. People have re-registered the cars as 5's not TR250's, as their birth certificates. That must be wrong. The DVLA have either been lazy or have been duped or both. If you have a certificate clearly showing it to be a TR250, why would you change it to a TR5 ? - Money and an increased value. best Bill

[oldtuckunder]

My opinion is, that if you use the original heritage/registration cert - If you like it's birth certificate as it came from the factory. It is what is is. It cannot be anything else, no matter how many changes you make to it. The main thread of all of the above. People have re-registered the cars as 5's not TR250's, as their birth certificates. That must be wrong. The DVLA have either been lazy or have been duped or both. If you have a certificate clearly showing it to be a TR250, why would you change it to a TR5 ? - Money and an increased value. best Bill

 

Ah so we are saying that as a heritage certificate can be obtained at any time if you have V5, and that it doesn't matter if there are no original parts in a car. That if you have a TR5 V5 you can take a pile of bits and build a TR5, or even take a TR250 and use it to build a TR5. But you cant take the same identical bits and build the identical car and for it to be a TR5.

 

So what we are saying is that the value of a TR5 is in the V5, so that far from deprecating someone selling a V5 and a rusty chassis as has often been done here in the past, in fact it is the right thing to do.

 

?

 

Alan

[Bill Bourne]

Ah so we are saying that as a heritage certificate can be obtained at any time if you have V5, and that it doesn't matter if there are no original parts in a car. That if you have a TR5 V5 you can take a pile of bits and build a TR5, or even take a TR250 and use it to build a TR5. But you cant take the same identical bits and build the identical car and for it to be a TR5.

 

So what we are saying is that the value of a TR5 is in the V5, so that far from deprecating someone selling a V5 and a rusty chassis as has often been done here in the past, in fact it is the right thing to do.

 

?

 

Alan

Hi Alan,

No I believe it depends on the factory records, which is where the heritage certificate comes from. Not the V5. The v5 is produced when the car is registered in the UK., which is after the car has been built and the factory record is made and subsequently the heritage certificate. If you are going to try and build a car from a pile of bits, then what commission no. Are you going to use? One from a 5 or from a 250? You would have to use another cars identity. I think that can also be called ringing.. if the car comes back from the USA, then surely the DVLA should reference the heritage certificate to ascertain the build identity. If that’s not possible, then I guess it will become a kit car. The whole point about this, is you cannot call a 250 a 5 when it isn’t.

Best Bill

[MikeThomas]

Hi Alan,

No I believe it depends on the factory records, which is where the heritage certificate comes from. Not the V5. The v5 is produced when the car is registered in the UK., which is after the car has been built and the factory record is made and subsequently the heritage certificate. If you are going to try and build a car from a pile of bits, then what commission no. Are you going to use? One from a 5 or from a 250? You would have to use another cars identity. I think that can also be called ringing.. if the car comes back from the USA, then surely the DVLA should reference the heritage certificate to ascertain the build identity. If that’s not possible, then I guess it will become a kit car. The whole point about this, is you cannot call a 250 a 5 when it isn’t.

Best Bill

 

 

Spot on and beautifully put Bill, first time the word 'ringing' has been mentioned as well, cos that's what it is in my book.

 

Best wishes,

Mike

[oldtuckunder]

Hi Alan,

No I believe it depends on the factory records, which is where the heritage certificate comes from. Not the V5. The v5 is produced when the car is registered in the UK., which is after the car has been built and the factory record is made and subsequently the heritage certificate. If you are going to try and build a car from a pile of bits, then what commission no. Are you going to use? One from a 5 or from a 250? You would have to use another cars identity. I think that can also be called ringing.. if the car comes back from the USA, then surely the DVLA should reference the heritage certificate to ascertain the build identity. If that’s not possible, then I guess it will become a kit car. The whole point about this, is you cannot call a 250 a 5 when it isn’t.

Best Bill

 

I think your missing my point, I'm not saying that a pile of bits, a reworked 4A, or a TR250 can ever be a genuine Factory built TR5. But your starting to tread on thin ice about what a genuine TR5 is when you say it depends on a heritage certificate, as if I have a V5 for what was a factory built TR5, I can obtain a heritage certificate for it as the factory never produced Heritage Certificates. So if I have a V5 I could take a pile of bits, or a TR4A or a TR250 and construct a TR5 that would have a V5 and I could obtain a Heritage Certificate for it as there would be a factory record for it.

 

Now in essence doing that is the same as having a TR5 and replacing everything over 40 years, or doing a complete restoration rebuild with new chassis, donor body shell etc.

 

By insisting that a Heritage Certificate, and thus a V5 are the important things, you are moving away from the fact that a real TR5 should be substantially a car that was made some 50 years ago, not something that has had most significant parts replaced over the years.

 

Is my grandfathers axe, really my grandfathers axe?

 

I'd conjecture that there are a number of grandfather axe TR5's out there that without a Heritage Certificate would be in real terms no more a TR5 (and in fact less) than one built out of a TR250.

 

And the insistence that one is a TR5 and the other isn't seems to smack more of art collecting, than classic car ownership and enjoyment.

 

I'm certainly not condoning passing of anything, but there is a certain mechanical truth, in that something that is built identically is entitled to be described as what it is.

 

If I took a pile of old and new Myford ML7 lathe parts, and built a lathe from them, it would not be incorrect to describe the result as a Myford ML7 Lathe, but not to describe it as an original Myford ML7 lathe.

 

One could posit the question why is a TR5 different?

 

Alan

[Brian Damage]

 

I think your missing my point, I'm not saying that a pile of bits, a reworked 4A, or a TR250 can ever be a genuine Factory built TR5. But your starting to tread on thin ice about what a genuine TR5 is when you say it depends on a heritage certificate, as if I have a V5 for what was a factory built TR5, I can obtain a heritage certificate for it as the factory never produced Heritage Certificates. So if I have a V5 I could take a pile of bits, or a TR4A or a TR250 and construct a TR5 that would have a V5 and I could obtain a Heritage Certificate for it as there would be a factory record for it.

 

Now in essence doing that is the same as having a TR5 and replacing everything over 40 years, or doing a complete restoration rebuild with new chassis, donor body shell etc.

 

By insisting that a Heritage Certificate, and thus a V5 are the important things, you are moving away from the fact that a real TR5 should be substantially a car that was made some 50 years ago, not something that has had most significant parts replaced over the years.

 

Is my grandfathers axe, really my grandfathers axe?

 

I'd conjecture that there are a number of grandfather axe TR5's out there that without a Heritage Certificate would be in real terms no more a TR5 (and in fact less) than one built out of a TR250.

 

And the insistence that one is a TR5 and the other isn't seems to smack more of art collecting, than classic car ownership and enjoyment.

 

I'm certainly not condoning passing of anything, but there is a certain mechanical truth, in that something that is built identically is entitled to be described as what it is.

 

If I took a pile of old and new Myford ML7 lathe parts, and built a lathe from them, it would not be incorrect to describe the result as a Myford ML7 Lathe, but not to describe it as an original Myford ML7 lathe.

 

One could posit the question why is a TR5 different?

 

Alan

Completely agree with you Alan. It's amusing as this same discussion crops up on many British car forums,an example would be BMC Mini Coopers.

Someone will argue that they have a 'completely original' Mk1 Cooper 'S' after restoring a complete basket case and 95% of the completed shell is heritage replacement panels,only the original roof is untouched. What's the difference ?

Regardless of spec between a Tr5 or 250 I would stick my neck out and say you are getting a far more original driving experience from an ex dry state 250 where the body has never been off and retaining factory panel gaps.

Each to their own as always.

Andy

[roy53]

I guess the car that started all this could be described as a TRIBUTE 5.

 

We haven't had that yet have we ?

i mean there is a tribute 3s

 

Roy

[lightningburns]

Completely agree with you Alan. It's amusing as this same discussion crops up on many British car forums,an example would be BMC Mini Coopers.

Someone will argue that they have a 'completely original' Mk1 Cooper 'S' after restoring a complete basket case and 95% of the completed shell is heritage replacement panels,only the original roof is untouched. What's the difference ?

Regardless of spec between a Tr5 or 250 I would stick my neck out and say you are getting a far more original driving experience from an ex dry state 250 where the body has never been off and retaining factory panel gaps.

Each to their own as always.

Andy

I think the same issues apply with TR250/TR5, if a genuine Cooper 'S' has been rebuilt from a basket case it's still a Cooper 'S'. However if a Cooper 'S' has been created from say a rustfree Mini 850 with the appropriate mods and paperwork then that should be still a Mini 850 with a 1275 engine.

In fact this was done by many people years ago including me, we just sent off the logbook with the larger engine size. there was little financial gain in doing it, it just made for a faster car it was never a Cooper 'S'.

Same applies with TR250, very few people fitted injection, some people fitted TR5 badges and some did both, again little financial gain if any.

It's only because of financial gain that it's being done now.

Most of those Reg numbers of 'rogue' cars advertised as TR5 do show up on the DVLA site as TR250 so I would hope that people would become aware before purchase. The problem is those that DVLA show as TR5, but most of those still have their orig commission /engine numbers so still identifiable as TR250.

Using an existing TR5 commission number on a TR250 is just plain 'Ringing' and with that becomes a criminal offence, I am not aware of that being an issue on the cars highlighted.

The answer for imported cars (TR250) may be the same as people who want their old reg numbers back and a long offroad vehicle returned to the road, they have to be inspected by a marque specialist who has to approve the registration application. They would in these cases approve the application as a TR250 and no further applications to change the vehicle type would be allowed.

UK TR6's are generally accepted as being worth more than imports even if converted to RHD and injection fitted it's not really a big problem at present because the price differential is not that great, but if they were not all called TR6 you would have exactly the same problem. Is there really much difference between a TR250 and US TR6 as opposed to a TR5 and UK TR6.

 

John

[oldtuckunder]

Is there really much difference between a TR250 and US TR6 as opposed to a TR5 and UK TR6.

 

Avarice?

[Brian Damage]

I think the same issues apply with TR250/TR5, if a genuine Cooper 'S' has been rebuilt from a basket case it's still a Cooper 'S'. However if a Cooper 'S' has been created from say a rustfree Mini 850 with the appropriate mods and paperwork then that should be still a Mini 850 with a 1275 engine.

In fact this was done by many people years ago including me, we just sent off the logbook with the larger engine size. there was little financial gain in doing it, it just made for a faster car it was never a Cooper 'S'.

Same applies with TR250, very few people fitted injection, some people fitted TR5 badges and some did both, again little financial gain if any.

It's only because of financial gain that it's being done now.

Most of those Reg numbers of 'rogue' cars advertised as TR5 do show up on the DVLA site as TR250 so I would hope that people would become aware before purchase. The problem is those that DVLA show as TR5, but most of those still have their orig commission /engine numbers so still identifiable as TR250.

Using an existing TR5 commission number on a TR250 is just plain 'Ringing' and with that becomes a criminal offence, I am not aware of that being an issue on the cars highlighted.

The answer for imported cars (TR250) may be the same as people who want their old reg numbers back and a long offroad vehicle returned to the road, they have to be inspected by a marque specialist who has to approve the registration application. They would in these cases approve the application as a TR250 and no further applications to change the vehicle type would be allowed.

UK TR6's are generally accepted as being worth more than imports even if converted to RHD and injection fitted it's not really a big problem at present because the price differential is not that great, but if they were not all called TR6 you would have exactly the same problem. Is there really much difference between a TR250 and US TR6 as opposed to a TR5 and UK TR6.

 

John

[Brian Damage]

 

I think the same issues apply with TR250/TR5, if a genuine Cooper 'S' has been rebuilt from a basket case it's still a Cooper 'S'. However if a Cooper 'S' has been created from say a rustfree Mini 850 with the appropriate mods and paperwork then that should be still a Mini 850 with a 1275 engine.

In fact this was done by many people years ago including me, we just sent off the logbook with the larger engine size. there was little financial gain in doing it, it just made for a faster car it was never a Cooper 'S'.

Same applies with TR250, very few people fitted injection, some people fitted TR5 badges and some did both, again little financial gain if any.

It's only because of financial gain that it's being done now.

Most of those Reg numbers of 'rogue' cars advertised as TR5 do show up on the DVLA site as TR250 so I would hope that people would become aware before purchase. The problem is those that DVLA show as TR5, but most of those still have their orig commission /engine numbers so still identifiable as TR250.

Using an existing TR5 commission number on a TR250 is just plain 'Ringing' and with that becomes a criminal offence, I am not aware of that being an issue on the cars highlighted.

The answer for imported cars (TR250) may be the same as people who want their old reg numbers back and a long offroad vehicle returned to the road, they have to be inspected by a marque specialist who has to approve the registration application. They would in these cases approve the application as a TR250 and no further applications to change the vehicle type would be allowed.

UK TR6's are generally accepted as being worth more than imports even if converted to RHD and injection fitted it's not really a big problem at present because the price differential is not that great, but if they were not all called TR6 you would have exactly the same problem. Is there really much difference between a TR250 and US TR6 as opposed to a TR5 and UK TR6.

 

John

John

You completely misinterpreted what I was trying to get across.

I personally will celebrate the fact I have a TR250 and it's definitely staying LHD and on carbs.

Some of you 5 owners need to get over yourselves. If you want to pay 50 large for something that's a facsimile of its former self then fill your boots. (By the way you need your bumps feeling !)I'd argue the V5 is the most original part of the car in a lot of cases.

[Bill Bourne]

 

I think your missing my point, I'm not saying that a pile of bits, a reworked 4A, or a TR250 can ever be a genuine Factory built TR5. But your starting to tread on thin ice about what a genuine TR5 is when you say it depends on a heritage certificate, as if I have a V5 for what was a factory built TR5, I can obtain a heritage certificate for it as the factory never produced Heritage Certificates. So if I have a V5 I could take a pile of bits, or a TR4A or a TR250 and construct a TR5 that would have a V5 and I could obtain a Heritage Certificate for it as there would be a factory record for it.

 

Now in essence doing that is the same as having a TR5 and replacing everything over 40 years, or doing a complete restoration rebuild with new chassis, donor body shell etc.

 

By insisting that a Heritage Certificate, and thus a V5 are the important things, you are moving away from the fact that a real TR5 should be substantially a car that was made some 50 years ago, not something that has had most significant parts replaced over the years.

 

Is my grandfathers axe, really my grandfathers axe?

 

I'd conjecture that there are a number of grandfather axe TR5's out there that without a Heritage Certificate would be in real terms no more a TR5 (and in fact less) than one built out of a TR250.

 

And the insistence that one is a TR5 and the other isn't seems to smack more of art collecting, than classic car ownership and enjoyment.

 

I'm certainly not condoning passing of anything, but there is a certain mechanical truth, in that something that is built identically is entitled to be described as what it is.

 

If I took a pile of old and new Myford ML7 lathe parts, and built a lathe from them, it would not be incorrect to describe the result as a Myford ML7 Lathe, but not to describe it as an original Myford ML7 lathe.

 

One could posit the question why is a TR5 different?

 

Alan

I think your missing my point, I'm not saying that a pile of bits, a reworked 4A, or a TR250 can ever be a genuine Factory built TR5. But your starting to tread on thin ice about what a genuine TR5 is when you say it depends on a heritage certificate, as if I have a V5 for what was a factory built TR5, I can obtain a heritage certificate for it as the factory never produced Heritage Certificates. So if I have a V5 I could take a pile of bits, or a TR4A or a TR250 and construct a TR5 that would have a V5 and I could obtain a Heritage Certificate for it as there would be a factory record for it.

 

Hi Alan. No I didn't say that. I said it depends on the factory records, which is where the heritage certificate comes from. When the car is registered, then it obtains it's V5 or equivalent of the day. So if you take your pile of bits, TR4A, TR250 or whatever and construct a TR5, what identity are you going to apply to it from the factory records ? The Heritage Certificate and the factory records are more or less one and the same thing and they will show the comm No, body No, key nos. and so on that were allocated to the model in question at the time. So if you have an authentic V5 related to an original TR5, and then replace every component with bits from other cars, then you are in essence re-building your TR5. How many components of other cars can be used to re-build a TR5 and still retain it's identity ? who knows. There doesn't seem to any rule for this scenario, but whichever way you look at it, your pile of bits cannot be the genuine car, unless it takes the identity of a TR5. My issue with this car, is that it has changed it's identity, which cannot be right.

[mafield]

We all know that a genuine TR5 has the greater value, and that some unscrupulous sales persons (individuals or businesses) are benefitting from selling non-original 5's to unknowing purchasers, but this is not the only issues.

 

We are all aware that there were 1161 UK RHD Triumph TR5's built, and it is the number of survivors from this build number that needs protecting.

However a car reaches it's current age, be it through a total rebuild, a multitude of sympathetic overhauls, or an original, it will still be what it started life as, and not a different model. If there are say 300 survivors of the original built, then that is how many there should be registered, not 400+.

 

As in many other makes and models of cars, the main priority is to protect the marque, and that value is not just monetary. I expect the same feelings exist with regard to owners of Lotus Cortina's, Escort Mexico's, Mini Cooper 's', and many, many others.

 

The reasoning is not complicated, as some others wish to make out. If it started life as an X model, then it should remain an X, and not be called a Y. If the original commission number is for a TR250 or whatever, then that is what it should remain.

By all means fit Pi to a 250, make whatever other alterations you like, but it remains a 250.

 

Another issue is with the new MOT regulations, which while a car over 40 years old can 'opt-out' of MOT's, a reasonably modified car cannot, until at least 30 years from when these mod's were carried out. If a model is changed by way of such mod's, and the DVLA allow it to be registered as the car it is imitating, then they are condoning dual standards by allowing modified vehicles to be accepted for exemption, when they shouldn't be.

 

If you don't agree, well that is your opinion, which you're entitled to.

[tr graham]

its pretty simple really all TR250 had a CD commision/vin number a CC engine number and a CC body number , a TR5 be it right hand or left hand drive had all CP numbers vin/engine/ body , and i can assure you all that although you may be able to get the DVLA to list the model as a TR5 they will not issue you with CP numbers .

graham

ps i probably submit more applications for V5s both recovery and imported than most ,

[MikeThomas]

FND205F is now listed as sold on the Morse Classics website.

[mafield]

It is such a shame when threads get locked, due to the few being unable to contain themselves from either personal abusive and rude comments, or trying to deride, devalue or undermine the topic in question.

 

It then means that a genuine query on the topic from a possibly new member cannot be posted - an opportunity missed, and caused by the few.

 

Let's hope this one doesn't go that way too!