Head Gasket?

[Kevo_6]

Hi

Here we go again, its never ending, that luck is not always with me.

Anyway since the end of last year Ive had fuel pressure problems which I now managed to sort by the end of last week.

I started it up last week to test and all good but I thought Id give it a service before taking it for a run as not been out since October last year (when the fuel problem arose). Over the winter Ive checked water and oil and that all seemed fine, so this morning I adjusted the tappets, put new plugs in and then checked the oil to find it quite high up the dipstick and it was a bit sludgy but I thought that would be a bit normal as its been not running for a while. I thought maybe I overfilled it so I started to drain a bit out to lower the level and there was a fair bit of water in it. Checked the rad and that was low and that took about another litre and half to get up to level.

I decided to start it up briefly to see what was coming out the exhaust but it looked good and it started straight away and was running really sweet.

So I guess my head gasket has gone in between start up last week and today.

Ive started calling the car IT now instead of her as this is really getting me down.

 

Looking forward to your comments and recommendations as always, a very depressed Kevo!!!!!!!!

 

(A CP Injection car)

Edited May 23, 2018 by Kevo_6

[Waldi]

Hi Kevin,

Think you are right with your analysis, so there is always some positive aspect, you just have to look (very) hard....

My head gasket surface had corroded a bit which Andreas (on this forum) made me aware of (I had not noticed it myself). It was clise to developing a leak path between water and cylinder.

So if you remove the head, inspect it, and if a skim is possible (it will increase your CR), do that.

Before taking the head of, do a compression test, so you are sure the rest does not need to be looked at (hopefully).

Goodparts (i think) has a nice table of the effect of skimming on CR on his site.

Good luck,

Waldi

[Kevo_6]

Hi Kevin,

Think you are right with your analysis, so there is always some positive aspect, you just have to look (very) hard....

My head gasket surface had corroded a bit which Andreas (on this forum) made me aware of (I had not noticed it myself). It was clise to developing a leak path between water and cylinder.

So if you remove the head, inspect it, and if a skim is possible (it will increase your CR), do that.

Before taking the head of, do a compression test, so you are sure the rest does not need to be looked at (hopefully).

Goodparts (i think) has a nice table of the effect of skimming on CR on his site.

Good luck,

Waldi

Hi Waldi

Thanks for your comments, I’ve had had the head done about 4-5 years ago, slight skim, new seats, new valves etc. Without any problems, just puzzles me why ok last week and not good today.

That’s TR’ing for you l suppose.

[astontr6]

Hi

Here we go again, its never ending, that luck is not always with me.

Anyway since the end of last year Ive had fuel pressure problems which I now managed to sort by the end of last week.

I started it up last week to test and all good but I thought Id give it a service before taking it for a run as not been out since October last year (when the fuel problem arose). Over the winter Ive checked water and oil and that all seemed fine, so this morning I adjusted the tappets, put new plugs in and then checked the oil to find it quite high up the dipstick and it was a bit sludgy but I thought that would be a bit normal as its been not running for a while. I thought maybe I overfilled it so I started to drain a bit out to lower the level and there was a fair bit of water in it. Checked the rad and that was low and that took about another litre and half to get up to level.

I decided to start it up briefly to see what was coming out the exhaust but it looked good and it started straight away and was running really sweet.

So I guess my head gasket has gone in between start up last week and today.

Ive started calling the car IT now instead of her as this is really getting me down.

 

Looking forward to your comments and recommendations as always, a very depressed Kevo!!!!!!!!

 

(A CP Injection car)

Hi Kev! when you take the head off it might be wise to have it pressure tested especially if it valve inserts? Lastly there are some horrible cheap head gaskets being sold in the market place! only use J Payen types. Good Luck.

 

Bruce----Ex Coopers / J Payen employee.

[TriumphV8]

As the combustion chamber is mostly surrounded by water

it is more likely that our TRs blow into the water jacket.

 

Often the space between the cylinders fails and allows the gas

to blow between two cylinders or the gas takes the shortest way

to next water break out in the gasket. To reach the oil it must cross

these holes and make its way to the pushrod area.

 

So I would suggest to investigate a bit more.

A blown gasket into the waterway makes the upper rubber tube from thermostat housing to rad

pretty hard like a bicycle tire and blows into the plastic overflow besides the radiator.

 

It is pretty normal to have water in the oil.

Not normal would be rising level and bigger amount.

With my 911 I used to open the lower bolt of the oil tank from time to time

where a quite serious amount of water can be separated from the oil.

 

So I know it can be quite a lot especially when the oil does not get that warm on highway use.

Each blow by at the pistons carries a bit of water that will condense in the crankcase.

[Kevo_6]

Hi Kev! when you take the head off it might be wise to have it pressure tested especially if it valve inserts? Lastly there are some horrible cheap head gaskets being sold in the market place! only use J Payen types. Good Luck.

 

Bruce----Ex Coopers / J Payen employee.

Hi Bruce

Yes did have valve inserts, when I get it off Ill take it back to the machine shop that did it and get it pressure tested, thanks for the tip. I used the correct Payen gasket last time and made sure it was spotless. It will definitely be Payen again.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Kevo_6

[Kevo_6]

As the combustion chamber is mostly surrounded by water

it is more likely that our TRs blow into the water jacket.

 

Often the space between the cylinders fails and allows the gas

to blow between two cylinders or the gas takes the shortest way

to next water break out in the gasket. To reach the oil it must cross

these holes and make its way to the pushrod area.

 

So I would suggest to investigate a bit more.

A blown gasket into the waterway makes the upper rubber tube from thermostat housing to rad

pretty hard like a bicycle tire and blows into the plastic overflow besides the radiator.

 

It is pretty normal to have water in the oil.

Not normal would be rising level and bigger amount.

With my 911 I used to open the lower bolt of the oil tank from time to time

where a quite serious amount of water can be separated from the oil.

 

So I know it can be quite a lot especially when the oil does not get that warm on highway use.

Each blow by at the pistons carries a bit of water that will condense in the crankcase.

Thanks TriumphV8

Ive drained all of the oil now and its very sludgey, Ive also drained the rad but it doesnt look like any oil in there, a bit rusty looking but the expansion bottle still has a blue antifreeze colour. The top hose still looks good.

When I started it last week I remember seeing water being sucked from the expansion tank when I turned off.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Kevo_6

[Kevo_6]

Hi

I would like to do a compression test but Ive drained the sludgy oil.

Should I put more oil in before spinning it over?

[Waldi]

Hi Kev,

I would fill it with oil.

In theory, just enough for the oil pump is ok, but it will also help as a flush to remove the sludgy oil, so I would fill her up with el cheapo oil for the compression test, then replace the cheap oil and filter as part of your other work with a good quality oil and filter (there are several opinions of that, so dont ask which one????).

Waldi

[Rem18]

Might I suggest you try some of that Water treatment Roger and Peejay recommended in another thread, worth a go just to see what happens. Tony

[Kevo_6]

Hi

Just drained the block and the water is quite oily.

So I wont bother with compression test and Ill just whip the head off as Im fairly certain now its the gasket.

But why???.

 

Thanks for the replies so far. ????

Edited May 23, 2018 by Kevo_6

[Kevo_6]

Hi

 

I took the head off this morning, came off quite easy and the gasket was in really good condition!!!

 

Well it's as clear as mud to me apart from a bit of whitening on a couple of valves but i'm unsure what that really means.

 

I've attached a few pics.

 

Please let me know what you think????

[Waldi]

Hi Kev,

For water in oil you need to look at a short-cut between these two, and the head gasket area is where to look for this first. You have to look very close at gasket and mating faces.

But exhaust valve #2 (and #1+3 to a lesser degree) looks very white, this could point to waterinjection in this cylinder.

What do the exhaust ports look like?

Waldi

[Kevo_6]

Hi Kev,
For water in oil you need to look at a short-cut between these two, and the head gasket area is where to look for this first. You have to look very close at gasket and mating faces.
But exhaust valve #2 (and #1+3 to a lesser degree) looks very white, this could point to waterinjection in this cylinder.
What do the exhaust ports look like?
Waldi

Hi Waldi

The exhaust ports all look the same and dark.

I've just been in the garage again to have a good look, the gasket looks OK as does the head and block, my only thought on this is that the gasket has not glued itself correctly to the surfaces and when i pulled the head I expected to see more parts of the gasket stuck to the surfaces. The head did seem to come a lot easier than the last time I removed it 4 years ago.

 

[Waldi]

So the white exhaust valve may also be caused by somthing else, maybe a more lean injector?

My gasket came off easily too, it was not leaking, so maybe that is not the issue.

But lets wait for Bruces response????.

Waldi

[Kevo_6]

So the white exhaust valve may also be caused by somthing else, maybe a more lean injector?

My gasket came off easily too, it was not leaking, so maybe that is not the issue.

But lets wait for Bruces response.

Waldi

Hi Waldi

Thanks for your reply, I’ve had problems with low fuel pressure (now fixed) so that may be a reason for the white valve.

Interesting regarding your gasket.

[DaveN]

Not run since last October..... was it nice and hot when you tucked it away? The head and block, looking at the pictures anyway, look ok. I’d be tempted to stick it back together, new oil and anti freeze and give it a go.

You could I suppose get the head pressure tested if there’s anyone local who can do it.

[Mike C]

Was the car left parked outside? When I was younger, we had fair amounts of water condense in the sumps of tractors left outside over long periods in winter .

 

Overnight the sumps would cool and condense whatever water vapour was in the space above the oil down to the dew point of the cold steel . Repeated each day over several months this amounted to a lot of water.

 

Didn't bother Perkins diesels- they just vented a plume of steam from the sump breather as the oil heated up.

[Kevo_6]

Not run since last October..... was it nice and hot when you tucked it away? The head and block, looking at the pictures anyway, look ok. I’d be tempted to stick it back together, new oil and anti freeze and give it a go.

You could I suppose get the head pressure tested if there’s anyone local who can do it.

Was the car left parked outside? When I was younger, we had fair amounts of water condense in the sumps of tractors left outside over long periods in winter .

 

Overnight the sumps would cool and condense whatever water vapour was in the space above the oil down to the dew point of the cold steel . Repeated each day over several months this amounted to a lot of water.

 

Didn't bother Perkins diesels- they just vented a plume of steam from the sump breather as the oil heated up.

Hi Dave and Mike, in October the car was hotish and I drove it straight into the garage when we got home but I did have fuel pressure problems and it cut out about 5 times a couple of miles from home.

[Rem18]

Oh Dear Kev what a quandary.

You seem a bit unlucky, sometimes cars are like that. ;(

Maybe you are luckier with the girls?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Rem18

[astontr6]

Hi Kev! when you take the head off it might be wise to have it pressure tested especially if it valve inserts? Lastly there are some horrible cheap head gaskets being sold in the market place! only use J Payen types. Good Luck.

 

Bruce----Ex Coopers / J Payen employee.

Hi Kevin! Please can we have a photo of the bottom side of your head gasket and block face? Have you put a straight edge across the head and block to check for flatness? From your pictures I am not too keen on the black scorch marks on the cyl. head face.

 

Bruce.

[Kevo_6]

Oh Dear Kev what a quandary.

You seem a bit unlucky, sometimes cars are like that. ;(

Maybe you are luckier with the girls?

[Kevo_6]

Hi Tony

Unlucky with the car Yes but not unlucky in love.

[Kevo_6]

Hi Kevin! Please can we have a photo of the bottom side of your head gasket and block face? Have you put a straight edge across the head and block to check for flatness? From your pictures I am not too keen on the black scorch marks on the cyl. head face.

 

Bruce.

Hi Bruce

Ive checked with a straight edge and all looks good, not able to post any pics at the moment but it does clean up a bit. I dont know if this matters much but the head does seem a little rough after the scim 4 years ago compared to the block face. There is very very small amounts of gasket glue on both surfaces, I was expecting a lot more i.e as compared to the last time.

[jamesStag]

Hi Kev,

Oh dear I was sorry to read this thread. Have seen your various previous issues with gearbox, diff, etc... I do think you've had a bad run of luck.

I concur with others, definitely something amiss to have 1.5litres water gone. What a pain!!

 

Not been able to review pics in detail (as just on phone), but anecdotely it does seem odd that the gasket was too easy to remove. Also, how tight did the headbolts 'feel' when you pulled it apart? I have known some heads become loose (not on TRs) before.

If easy to get head pressure tested while it's off I'd be tempted as no obvious fault has really come to light.

Also,can i please ask... At rebuild 5 years ago did you do a head retorque after a few runs?

 

Good luck with this next challenge.

Cheers J.