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Willie

RENEWING REAR ENGINE OIL SEAL

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Hi Folks, I hope you experts out there can give me some info. I am about to undertake gearbox overhaul, but as there are some annoying oil leaks I want to replace the rear engine seal. The engine has had the oil scroll to oil seal conversion carried out. Is it possible to replace the seal by removing the flywheel and nothing else with the engine still in the car?

 

Best wishes Willie

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Hi Willie,

so the scroll has been machined off and the Rover lip seal installed. Is that correct.

 

The seal will not come out unless you remove the rear main bearing cap. Even then I'm not sure it will come out.

How flexible/compliant is the lip seal. It is quite a big item.

 

Why not take the engine out and do it in comfort. It really isn't that much of a job.

 

Roger

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Why not take the engine out and do it in comfort. It really isn't that much of a job.

 

Roger

 

Says the man who decides to remove a diff - convinced it would be a "five-minute-job"!! :ph34r:

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Says the man who decides to remove a diff - convinced it would be a "five-minute-job"!! :ph34r:

It is a five minute job - but not necessarily consecutive minutes. They are spread thinly over a period.

 

Roger

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+1 on removing the engine if the rear scroll has been machined off and a lip seal fitted and it's leaking.

 

Willie I don't know if you fitted the seal but they don't normally give too much trouble as long as fitted well. Conversely it's quite possible to STILL have the rear mains leaking even with a well fitted crankshaft seal if the engine has breathing problems. I would check it and confirm that isn't the case, try running with rocker cover filler cap not fitted and look for emissions, select Forums and try a search in the search box under engine breathing and go through some of the remedies there before attacking the engine.*

 

Mick Richards

 

* I just did this and got 148 results, some may not be pertinent but I'd be surprised if 50 threads don't tell you how to bottom engine compression if you haven't done it already.

Edited by Motorsport Mickey

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Thanks to all for the replies. Mick - your comment intrigues me as over the winter period when I occasionally fired up the engine and took it to normal op temperature, there was a small pool of oil on the nearside. If that came from the breather, what needs to be done? I guess look at the Forum!! Thanks Willie

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Hi Willie,

before removing the GB why not do a compression test on the engine.

If the bores/rings are worn then there may be excessive 'blow by' etc.

 

If you are feeling brave the engine and GB can come out in one lump. This makes fitting the GB easier.

With the engine running, remove the dip stick - does oil come out (it shouldn't)

 

Have you got any engine breathing apparatus other than the snorkel on the side. If so is it clear and working.

 

A simple oil leak can lead to a great many things :o

 

Roger

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Thanks to all for the replies. Mick - your comment intrigues me as over the winter period when I occasionally fired up the engine and took it to normal op temperature, there was a small pool of oil on the nearside. If that came from the breather, what needs to be done? I guess look at the Forum!! Thanks Willie

That may well have come from the oil filter or filter head or the oil pressure gauge feed line, so not necessarily the breather. There have been instances of the crank scroll being machined incorrectly in comparison with the seal too.

Stuart.

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Hi All,

To confirm, oil seal kit part number TT1032 was fitted to the car about 11 years and 14000 miles ago.My TR4 is a late model with the closed circuit breathing and CD175s [built July 1964]. The pipes are clear. Willie

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Hi Willie,

there is a confusion. Have you had the oil seal that requires the scroll to be machined off and a lip seal installed.

 

The TT1032 is a fairly modern item and not available 14 years ago.

 

If the scroll was machined away then the only replacement is the same new seal.

 

Roger

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I fitted the seal kit to my 4A when I rebuilt the engine at least 16 years ago and it was not a new item then. I had the scroll machined off when the crank was reconditioned so like Willie, there is no going back.

 

I agree that the only way to replace the seal is to remove the crankshaft. I would follow Mickey's recommendations to try and find the source of the leak before pulling everything apart. If it is the seal, it should be dropping oil centrally from the bottom of the bell housing, not off to one side. The rocker cover gasket is notorious for leaking if you have the original pressed metal rocker cover which has been regularly over tightened over 50 years. This bends the flange (nothing worse) and makes it impossible to get a good seal. The oil can then run down the side of the engine and gives a false idea of the source. An alloy cover can solve that problem.

 

My car leaked copiously until I fixed the breather problem. It only leaks from the gearbox now (sigh). I would start with a good wash down of the engine to see where the leak is really coming from.

 

Rockie

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The oil seal that was available for a long time and requires machining of the crank is part No. 837-006 https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/oil-seal-conversion-kit-rear-crankshaft-837-006.html

 

As Roger points out the relatively new seal kit is TT1032 and requires no machining of the crank.https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/oil-seal-conversion-kit-rear-crankshaft-tt1032.html

 

They are very similar in looks but are significantly different.

 

Cheers

Graeme

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That'll be the Chris Marx seal then.

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That'll be the Chris Marx seal then.

Be careful, the Bastuck rear seal is very similar tot he CM offering but is not the same quality and I've heard of problems - it is cheaper.

 

Roger

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The work to the engine was carried out by a previous owner. TR Enterprises issued an invoice for, amongst other things:

"Remove seal scroll £40"; "Rear oil seal kit TT1032 £45". VAT extra. Invoice is dated 12/11/2007.

That's the info I have. I definitely have oil leaking from the drain hole at the bottom of the bell housing and thought I would sort it whilst overhauling the gearbox, but only if I could do it the lazy way without dismantling the engine. A very old friend who has fiddled with engines professionally for 50 years will be doing the work. He thought it would be possible to remove/refit a seal, but I haven't seen the layout. I don't want the car off the road for more than a day or so at this time of year.

 

Best wishes Willie

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Willie,

 

You have an item on the invice:

 

"Remove seal scroll £40"

 

I think that the TT1032 seal requires the ally “Half moon” seal parts to be machined, maybe this is what is being referred to, and not the scroll on the crank.

 

Charlie D

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Hi Willie,

you have definitely thrown a spanner into the works.

 

The seal that requires the journal/scroll machining is this one https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/oil-seal-conversion-kit-rear-crankshaft-837-006.html

 

The TT1032 didn't appear until a fair few years after 2007. I wonder what Moss are doing. This requires NO machining.

 

Anyway - you can still get new seals for your set-up.

 

Roger

 

PS - just read Charlies post #16. That could work for the date - but retianers were available.

Edited by RogerH

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Many thanks for the extra input from Roger & Charlie D. The items I quoted in #15 were as they appear on the invoice. Please note the invoice was from TR Enterprises, not Moss! Do we believe the item I will find at the rear of the engine block will be as part 837-006 from the data I have supplied? Willie

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Hi All,

To confirm, oil seal kit part number TT1032 was fitted to the car about 11 years and 14000 miles ago.My TR4 is a late model with the closed circuit breathing and CD175s [built July 1964]. The pipes are clear. Willie

Hi Willie, before you dismantle the engine try removing the PCV closed circuit valve, they often play up and the engine will run better without it. Blank the take off hole on the manifold with a bit of hose and a suitable bolt and run a plain piece of hose from the rocker box down to near the chassis rail. If your problem is crankcase pressure then this quick fix could see you through the summer and then you can tackle the seal if needed in the winter.

Also note Rogers reply re compression check etc.

Regards Chris

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Willie,

 

I think the only way you will be able to tell for certain what you have is to take the gearbox out, remove the flywheel, and then remove the ally “Half moon” seals to see if the scroll is still there on the crankshaft or if it has been machined off.

 

Then you have the problem of re-fitting the ally half moons exactly centrally in relation to the crankshaft. (I guess you could scribe the block before you take them off.) Even then I’m pretty sure you will need to remove the crank to get a new seal on.

 

I’ve read about this process several times on several different forums and 99% of the people say: “You have to remove the crankshaft.”

 

However, there was a post on the US “British car forum” in 2013, by a bloke called “Dan B” and he said:

 

“Actually, I put one of Joe's kits in my TR4A last summer with the engine in the car. I did not pull the crank out either. The rear main and the aluminum seal will spin around the crank and come out. The hardest part is getting the rubber seal in.”

(The Joe he mentions is the US dealer for the Mad Marx kit)

 

Although with the sun shining in Hereford today, I’m sure that taking the engine out is the last thing on your mind.

 

Charlie

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Willie,

 

I think the only way you will be able to tell for certain what you have is to take the gearbox out, remove the flywheel, and then remove the ally “Half moon” seals to see if the scroll is still there on the crankshaft or if it has been machined off.

 

Charlie

You would only need to remove the rear main bearing cap. This will take the bottom half of the ali scroll seal with it. You can then easily see the rubber seal and journal.

 

Roger

 

PS - I think Fireman Tom on here fitted the CM seal insitu.

Edited by RogerH

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Willie,

 

You've got the whole selection now of various ways to TRY and replace the rear oil seal, but maybe it doesn't even need replacing if you have excessive interior compression ?

 

Why not remove the time constraint and run the car through summer (which is a month away) and put up with whatever small drip comes from the bellhousing area whilst you try out various methods of interior compression removal by improving the breathing which will help reduce or even stop the oil leak if that is the cause. Then if it still has the leak at the end of the season after trying the other various fixes, take out the engine and positively identify which seal is fitted (otherwise you'll have to buy various examples to cover all circumstances) and if you have a scroll still on the crank. Then it should allows a relatively easy replacement with the best chance of success in one go.

 

Mick Richards

 

PS: Toms excellent photos of the Christian Marx rear additional lip oil seal fitment shows how the alloy oil seal scroll fitting sits and how difficult it is to identify which other oil seal is currently fitted or if the scroll has been removed will be from underneath the car. Always go for the best method of guaranteed success the first time, so much easier than having to attend to it again.

Edited by Motorsport Mickey

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Willie,

 

You've got the whole selection now of various ways to TRY and replace the rear oil seal, but maybe it doesn't even need replacing if you have excessive interior compression ?

 

Why not remove the time constraint and run the car through summer (which is a month away) and put up with whatever small drip comes from the bellhousing area whilst you try out various methods of interior compression removal by improving the breathing which will help reduce or even stop the oil leak if that is the cause. Then if it still has the leak at the end of the season after trying the other various fixes, take out the engine and positively identify which seal is fitted (otherwise you'll have to buy various examples to cover all circumstances) and if you have a scroll still on the crank. Then it should allows a relatively easy replacement with the best chance of success in one go.

 

Mick Richards

 

PS: Toms excellent photos of the Christian Marx rear additional lip oil seal fitment shows how the alloy oil seal scroll fitting sits and how difficult it is to identify which other oil seal is currently fitted or if the scroll has been removed will be from underneath the car. Always go for the best method of guaranteed success the first time, so much easier than having to attend to it again.

+1

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