Odd commission plate on TR3A for sale in NL?

[Don H.]

Our forum friend Edwin linked this on FB. Nice looking car. But an odd commission number plate. It definitely looks original, but the "9" in front of the TS is a new one on me. The typeface is slightly different. The mounting holes seem off-center and the rivets don't look quite like the normal closed-end blind rivets.

 

What does everyone think?

 

https://trtom.wordpress.com/2018/04/21/tr3a-in-brg-zu-verkaufen/

[EdwinTiben]

Hi don, of course this was an interesting detail for me too, i know the owner. had some mail conversation with Bill P and Mike ellis:

 

 

"Hi Edwin,

Some years ago a Canadian TR owner told me that there was a requirement for the year of manufacture to appear on cars so that they could not at some future time be passed off as a later car. This took the form of a prefix so the 9 means 1959 and 0 means 1960 etc.

 

Regards

Mike"

 

There were canadian delivered cars which had a prefix with the initials of the provence where it was sold.

Edited April 22, 2018 by EdwinTiben

[EdwinTiben]

and course if any one is interested the owner is member here too.

[Don H.]

Thanks, Edwin -- that makes (some) sense, but I've never heard of that detail around Canadian imports before. We have a few Canadians and Canadian cars on here and perhaps they can offer more information.

 

I like the color of the car -- but then I would, wouldn't I, as it's almost the same as mine! It's not the original "Triumph Racing Green" shade noted on the BMIHT certificate any longer, is it?

[niklas]

Hi TR people!

 

This is my fathers TR3a. We've acquired this car from the Toronto area some 15 years ago. This VIN plate was with the car. The car has been restored for us by a local specialist. As he painted the firewall he had to replace the (original) rivets. The addition of the "9" could very well be the reference to the year it was built as it is a 1959 car.

 

As for the colour, i do not know if it is the original BRG. Will try and find traces of the original paint, if there is a different colour shade of green to be found.

 

Thanks!

 

Niklas

[TorontoTim]

Edwin/Don/Niklas,

 

What an interesting thing! I'm no help here, I'm afraid, because my '61 car is originally a US import which I've since imported to Canada.

 

I've asked a question to the Toronto Triumph Club to see if this what is known here about this - what years, models, or whatever.

 

Will report back if and when I get a reply.

 

Cheers,

Tim

[TomMull]

Hi don, of course this was an interesting detail for me too, i know the owner. had some mail conversation with Bill P and Mike ellis:

 

 

"Hi Edwin,

Some years ago a Canadian TR owner told me that there was a requirement for the year of manufacture to appear on cars so that they could not at some future time be passed off as a later car. This took the form of a prefix so the 9 means 1959 and 0 means 1960 etc.

 

Regards

Mike"

 

There were canadian delivered cars which had a prefix with the initials of the provence where it was sold.

For what it's worth and if I read the commission plate correctly, TS 14619 LO would have been built in November or December of 1956, not in 1959.

Tom

[Don H.]

It's a "4", not a "1", Tom.

 

The classified ad has a copy of the BMIHT certificate with all the details.

[EdwinTiben]

With a build number in TS14xxx it should have a small mouth grill, of course there are retrofit small mouths, but in this case its original wide mouth tr3a.

just like Don says, the certificate shows '59 as build year.

[TorontoTim]

Hi Guys,

 

Here's the reply I received from Shaun of the Toronto Triumph Club (TCC) about numbers added to commission plates in Canada... Notes in italics are my additional explanations.

 

Best,

Tim

***************

 

Hi, Tim.

 

It seems to have been a fairly common practice for DMVs [Department of Motor Vehicles] (or registering dealers) to add the last digit of the year as a leading digit to VINs back on the 1950s and 60s. This was already the standard for factory-generated VINs of domestic models, and I think they just felt that this would be a good way to standardize things overall.

During the past few years, I have encountered three different cases. First was a TR3A from Quebec that I was looking at, but didn't purchase. It had the last digit of the year added to the beginning of the VIN on the ownership and also stamped onto the commission plate. The second was a TR250 that I owned in Ontario, and this had the last digit of the year added to the beginning of the VIN on the ownership, but not on the commission plate. The final car was the TR4A I have now. This again had the last digit of the year on the registration, but not on the commission plate.

For both of the cars that I owned personally, I was able to work with MTO [Ministry of Transport, Ontario] and ICBC [insurance Corporation of British Columbia who handle all insurance in BC], respectively, to update the VIN properly, but it took a little doing. For the one in Ontario, I did quite a bit of research, created a formal document and Dave Sims [of TCC] was kind enough to help me out by signing off as an expert on this model. In both cases, I included a copy the BMIHT certificate, and emphasized that the VIN, as displayed on the paperwork, was an impossibility as it did not match the conventions of the manufacturer for how VIN numbers were generated for the models in question. This seemed to help.

As for the actual commission plate being modified, it seems most likely to me that this was done by the registering dealer to make the car "match" the documentation, and it's obvious that it wasn't done consistently.

Whether the DMVs were the driving force behind these behaviors, or if it was only done by certain registering dealers, I can't say, but the latter feels right to me as the practice is so inconsistent overall. I suspect that the DMV simply felt that the dealer was obligated to provide the VIN upon registration, and they were the "experts" on what that should be.

I've felt like a bit of an archaeologist in 'digging' into this subject, but it has really been quite interesting.

So, to answer your question, this really is a thing, and, at least in my experience, hasn't been impossible to deal with. MTO and ICBC (maybe others) are aware of this circumstance (and that there are certainly inaccuracies in old, manually-created VINs, in general).
Both have mechanisms to correct them once they are convinced of the error and can see the actual/proper VIN on the car. As long as you come prepared with full documentation, and present your case politely and persistently, it's doesn't seem difficult to resolve. I'm sure that nightmares are also possible, however.

Hope this is helpful!

Shaun

[Don H.]

Thanks for that, Tim -- most interesting!