Slipppery Stats for Oil and Zinc It seems is not so important...

[Rem18]

So due to some difficulties on the road a long while back I bought some modern Castrol Gtx and put it in the 5...

Forgot about it for a couple of years and and got a few wry looks regards the lack of Zinc and stuff.

Well just putting some Castrol Classic in now but as I started I thought I would do some research.

So

Take a look here a very nicely done table of research and it seems to be saying that Zinc and stuff is no big deal after all.

Modern Castrol GTx 20/50 comes out really well.........

http://www.chevelles...-more-oils.html

Maybe we should stop worrying about zinc and start looking at the research.

The guy actually states that the Zinc thing is a popular myth.....

Tony

[Steves_TR6]

That is very interesting , thanks for posting ot Tony.

 

Having read most of it and scanned down the list i’m sticking with Valvoline VR1 non-synthetic.

 

7th in the table AND high zddp , belt and braces!

 

Steve

[Motorsport Mickey]

540 Rat is well known on many motoring forums ( mostly US) go in and read but dont post, he gets touchy.

If you ask many of the various forum posters about his qualifications ( anybody can claim knowledge) they wont get involved.

Weve seen his pronouncements before here on the various oil threads ( always use the search facility).

Im using oil that carries the same engine protection that has allowed it to live these last 50. + years, proof by application, the mix carries the same ingredients. For all who wish to use whatever jungle juice they want thats great, it allows judgement to be made, its just not for me.

 

Mick Richards

[Rem18]

Thanks for your input Mick.

I guess there are already threads but its sometimes way back.

Just thought I would stick it in to add some colour as not everyone knows about past threads so it lights a small forum fire.

I too have an original Tr6 1970 (it was my fathers from new) its been a mix over the years oil wise as it was just a family car..

Still on original engine.

My 5 I have only had for 25 years but it has had a lot of oil and very hard driving with recently only a tappet broken and mostly until zinc became famous just good stuff but not necessarily classic.

Mine was more of a provocation in such that both mine and my fathers have had a mix. Always regular changes though.

I do wonder if the zinc thing is like the unleaded discussion 20 years ago where time has shown it wasn't necessary.

Or maybe there is zinc memory?

I think Steve has it figured.

For now I am having a swap back to Castrol Classic, for the summer, but I wont be so frightened now to use GTx if I need to.

T

Edited April 19, 2018 by Rem18

[TorontoTim]

Hi Tony,

 

I have moved this to the General Tech Section (from TR6 section), as I think it would be of interest to all. I hope that's ok - please tell me if not!!

 

Cheers,

Tim

[TR5tar]

I think you are right to do so Tim. It's not specific to 6s.

 

Good moderation, and thanks for letting people know.

[Rem18]

Tim

Sure I just copied here from where I had written it in the 5 area.

T

[Don H.]

Many of us read the forum via the "View New Content" link at top right, Rem18, with less attention to the specific subforum when we catch up on recent posts. Give it a try -- it's quite useful, and eliminates the need for duplicate posting to reach everyone.

[Dave Larnder]

Tony

 

I have used GTX+ZDDP in my TR3A since the rebuild 31000 miles ago and will contue with it.

See my article about Gearbox Oil.

 

Dave

[TriumphV8]

Without any doubt a larger zinc content was in the oil in the earlier years.

I wonder if they all have been idiots to do so.

I learned that the zinc in the oil is harmfull to the catalytic converter.

So I see a reason to limit the content from that today and not because

there might be other reasons like being useless.

Nearly all manufacturers of hotter cams recommend for their peoducts

a running in additive what is in fact a ZDDP additive.

They also say inofficially you should use it permanently.

 

I could read several articles where it was explained how the ZDDP

works especially at part oiled surfaces to prevent them from eating each other.

It is correct that modern engines do no longer have such areas.

 

What is my conclusion?

I do not see any harm to use ZDDP except it costs money.

I know my engines, both the Rover and the TR6 are very

sensible to wrong treatment of the cam and they are both

really at the limit. If we go for hotter cam and more valve spring power

and do not tend to live in high revs areas things become really tricky.

 

So I will use ZDDP and forget about the stories that say its nonsense.

[Rem18]

Of course I agree with being safe.

Just thought might add some colour throwing this in.

Certainly my car didnt blow up using newer Castrol GTX

As I mentioned previously I think Steves combination looks good with Valvoline VR1 non-synthetic.

T

[DaveN]

One item I found mildly interesting is the oil recommendation for BMW (USA )... Castrol TWS 10w/60. Whereas in this country oil recommendation is Mobil 1 0w/40 or 5w/40 ( labelled as LL01 or LL04.... the LL being long life). I use 0w/40 and stick to the 25k mile oil change too.

 

Might just try the TR with it.

[Motorsport Mickey]

Err...is it 1st April again ? 25k oil change on a TR ? forget it.

 

The oil does more than lubricate, it also removes and flushes away carbon particles and most other nasty stuff which is engendered in our old engines combustion and lubrication process. At 25k it will turn the oil into a carborundum paste and increase wear on the TRs internals, also the thinner oil will be more difficult to keep inside the engine the BMW engineering and their production machines being light years better than the beaten to death 1950-70s lathes millers etc used to make our engines. Their machined tolerances will be much closer and better controlled and will hold thin viscosity oil much better, and that's not even going into the previous discussion of ZDDP (which it will only have low amounts of because it's made for a "cat" car) or not.

 

Mick Richards

Edited April 21, 2018 by Motorsport Mickey

[hpremote]

Think he might mean '2.5k', Mick.

I agree with you about avoiding thinner viscosity oils.

Me, l'm sticking with Halfords 20/50, tho might just try the Duckhams, which has reared its smooth head once more.

Tim.

[acaie]

 

 

Edited April 21, 2018 by acaie

[acaie]

That is very interesting , thanks for posting ot Tony.

 

Having read most of it and scanned down the list i’m sticking with Valvoline VR1 non-synthetic.

 

7th in the table AND high zddp , belt and braces!

 

Steve

+1

[Rem18]

I use 5-30 in my bmw change at 15k

But its diesel.

TR adverages 5k mostly with new filter.

[DaveN]

@ Mick

Apologies badly written! My daily beemer 530d has a 25k oil service! I use Mobil 0w/40 or 5w/40 in that.

The TR gets It’s oil changed at the end of summer when it’s laid up.

I was only commenting on the difference in BMW stateside and Europe oil recommendations.

I do wonder though.... would an engine like ours leak that badly with a low viscosity oil?

After all it gets pretty thin when hot!

[Motorsport Mickey]

More grist to the oil ZDDP or not mill.

 

Just reading the JE pistons "how to break in an engine" posting, as suppliers of many competition pistons as well as pistons for everyday use you'd think they may have an idea of how to do it and whether ZDDP in an oil is necessary or not... and they do. I guess I'm glad I've used the same system in over 20+ 4 cylinder engine rebuilds, works every time.

 

http://blog.jepistons.com/how-to-break-in-an-engine?utm_content=70557721&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

 

Mick Richards

[Waldi]

Thanks for sharing Mick.

My car cannot drive on the public road once the engine is rebuilt for at least 1/2 year, maybe even one year.

What would be best approach here?

Thanks,

Waldi

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi Waldi,

 

I use engine oils throughout the engine on bearings and machined surfaces in the build and then cam additive oil or paste smeared on the cam and cam followers, preferably I'd normally build an engine which is either used immediately or within 2 or 3 months.

 

If you're going to delay engine start and commissioning for 6 months or a year there will be a certain amount of lubrication drain off on machined surfaces, but on no account use anything other than a heavy oil or a specialist engine assembly paste in the process.

If the delay starting the engine is going to stretch to a year then after the build and about a 3 month stand I would take out the spark plugs and pump 10cc of engine oil into each cylinder, also remove the rocker cover and give a couple of cc to each valve stem and BRIEFLY turn the engine over for 4 or 5 revolutions. Because the crank bearings are so close fitting the oil normally is reluctant to drain from between the bearings surfaces and clings there as long as revolutions are minimal, turning it over merely spreads remaining lubrication around the bearing surface. To relubricate the engine bearings those surfaces can't be reached until the engine is started so that's why revolutions must be restrained to the minimum using existing remaining lubrication, because there is no pressure on the pistons (spark plug removed) there's only the minimal bearing pressure drawing the conrods UP the bore.

The cam followers and camshaft should have been fitted with the"gloop" lubrication on surfaces which the camshaft manufacturers recommended (I ALWAYS use their recommendation, it saves arguments and recriminations) which is famously sticky and adheres well with minimal rotation. I always give the timing tensioner a smear with the same gloop or STP in the original build which again adheres well and I would carry out this relubrication process as itemised every 3 months until engine start.

 

When eventually starting the engine disconnect the "king lead" on the distributor and turn the engine over on the starter motor until you get a reading of about 40lbs minimum on the oil gauge, then have tools , oil and water to hand and start the engine and immediately take the revs over 2000 and maintain the revs (friend in driving seat or block of wood in the carburettor linkage ) whilst you check for leaks or engine problems.

After a couple of mins you should be assured all is well, I then take the car with an emergency toolpack, mobile phone and the oil and water out for a drive on a known test route with minimal traffic lights (keep the revs over 2000 if you have to stand), about an hours run does the job. Run the engine up to no more than 4000 revs using easy acceleration and no less than 2000 revs whilst the camshaft and it's followers bed in and the piston rings scour the cylinders.

Return home and carry out engine checks for water and oil leaks and general tightness of carburettor and manifold fastenings, and then back out onto the road now using revs up to about 5000 (not critical as long as it's over) and LOAD the engine with full acceleration in top gear (4th) preferably uphill.

Motorway gradients are good for this, 4th gear about 3000 revs (standard camshaft) and floor the throttle and hold the pedal down, when it gets to legal limit (or 4200 revs) throttle off and brake down to 3000 revs again, normally you can get another run up the same gradient (they are long) floor the throttle in 4th and hold it down. A rolling road if convenient can offer the same function loading the engine and takes maybe 20 mins.

 

This is BMEP* running, it expands the piston rings by exerting maximum pressure on the power downward stroke which expands the piston rings which scour the cylinder walls gouging complementary grooves (steady, we are talking microns) which helps the oil resist being pushed out or burnt when left the wrong side of the compression process. This BMEP process normally happens around the area of maximum torque (hence starting at 3000 revs and finishing at 4200 revs on a standard camshaft), it maximises the compression and reduces oil consumption and helps avoid glazing on the engine. Do not use synthetic oils whilst the engine is being bedded in even if you decide to do so afterwards, they are too slippery and hinder the necessary frictions to finish off the machined surfaces.

 

Mick Richards

 

*Brake Mean Effective Pressure...Google it.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Motorsport Mickey

[Waldi]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for your detailed guidance!

I will proceed as you outlined, or alternatively find a roling road near by.

The 2000+ rpm recommendation I was aware of.

I use graphogen and camlube during assembly.

 

With a rebuilt engine, drive train, brakes, electrics, MU, ...car, it will be a challenge.

I have tested all systems I have completed as far as possible.

Best Regards,

Waldi

[Motorsport Mickey]

Hi Waldi,

 

Yes the rolling road offers a controlled way to bed the engine surfaces in. I forgot, in your area you may not have the gradients and hills we enjoy !

 

Mick Richards

[Waldi]

No hills???

We have high mountains in the south, 1000 ft above sea level:)

In Holland we like to think we are world players and have high mountains.

Cheers,

Waldi