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Posted this in Tr5 forum regards Bosch Interchangabilty of pumps- Maybe of interest?


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So Finally getting round to doing a few jobs.

One of the things I have read for years is regarding how you should get a properly designed kit and anything else is dangerous and blah bla.

So

My 5 has had a bosch pump for 30 years.

It doesnt have anything fancy just a 580254973 pump which was superseeded by the 910.

It doesnt have a bosch filter just low down in the boot and with the CAV filter and it has done many many miles of hard driving here in the alps without ever missing a beat.

So sorry folks when I read stuff about you will damage your car and stuff I am not very convinced as I am living proof.

The original system was deigned to feed 6.89bar @72,74 Lph.

The Bosch I have feeds 5bar @130 Lph.

Just about every Bosch pump feeds 5b (some 3b) Some of the differences are in the consumption and I have no idea why a 910 pulls 1amp more than a 909.

Now I am not sure how all this converts as it would appear that the Bosch pressure is too low but what can I say, they work.

Maybe someone wiser than me can explain?

Anyway back to the point. due to a layup without fuel my pump seal has gone and its leaking so its time to change.

I have a 580254933 someone gave me and I am going to try it out as I cant find any info regards the specs, worst case either she wont run at all or will not ave power at top end, unlikely its dangerous as I said before in theory its rare to have pumps that are more powerful than the Lucas.

Would be great if someone knows where to find the specs of the 933 (Saab 900 I believe) to see but if not I will try it.

For those interested all the info point to virtually all the pumps we are interested in being standardised to the 909 and 910 which have similar specs so all this talk about you need our kit as its the only safe one has me wondering if its not marketing?

For those of you interested I have also found a Marelli pump with similar specs at about 1/5th of the Bosh price.

Interested to hear from anyone who has actually tried the combinations or knows the effects of changes in Lpm (what most of the Bosch do when specs change)

I have been collecting quite a bit of info so for those of you interested here are some links.

http://www.tr6pi.com/Lucas%20Petrol%20Injection.pdf Page 8 shows lucas fuel specs

http://www.leicestertr.co.uk/Part%20Numbers_files/pumps.pdf Range of pump numbers as published by Peter Winn many years ago.

https://www.auto-doc.it/magneti-marelli/7613355 Marrelli pump 6b @120lpm very cheap......It does look identical to my 973 and at that price I am tempted to get one to try.

https://www.boschfuelpumps.com/B.htm list of bosh specs

Last but not least the 2 lists of Bosch cross reference numbers. Second one is easy to read

https://www.boschfue...er Guide .htm

http://www.guzzitek....sReferences.pdf

 

If anyone has info on the 933 pump I am interested the last link shows the Saab 900 as a 909 so I am hopeful...So meanwhile I am going of to play

Tony

P.s. I have been doing a lot of research on oils and do you know that some very well done test charts showing oil resistance I have found actually point to all the chat about zinc and stuff as not being too relevant and not as worrying as some people might think. Gonna post it now separately.

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Tony,

 

I agree with your sentiments about the early Bosch Pumps. I have been using a Bosch pump serial no 0 580 254 956 since 1985 mounted in the old Lucas pump position used in conjunction with the CAV filter and touch wood it hasn't missed a beat in all those years. There is also no resonance that seems to plague a lot of the current conversions either and it hasn't needed a large bore outlet from the fuel tank. Over the years I have been tempted to change it for a modern version but its been a case of let sleeping dogs lie. Will be interested to hear how you get on with the 933 pump which looking at the spec sheets is similar to the one that you have just removed except for the slightly lower current consumption required.

 

​cheers

 

​Derek

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So Finally getting round to doing a few jobs.

One of the things I have read for years is regarding how you should get a properly designed kit and anything else is dangerous and blah bla.

So

My 5 has had a bosch pump for 30 years.

It doesnt have anything fancy just a 580254973 pump which was superseeded by the 910.

It doesnt have a bosch filter just low down in the boot and with the CAV filter and it has done many many miles of hard driving here in the alps without ever missing a beat.

So sorry folks when I read stuff about you will damage your car and stuff I am not very convinced as I am living proof.

The original system was deigned to feed 6.89bar @72,74 Lph.

The Bosch I have feeds 5bar @130 Lph.

Just about every Bosch pump feeds 5b (some 3b) Some of the differences are in the consumption and I have no idea why a 910 pulls 1amp more than a 909.

Now I am not sure how all this converts as it would appear that the Bosch pressure is too low but what can I say, they work.

Maybe someone wiser than me can explain?

Anyway back to the point. due to a layup without fuel my pump seal has gone and its leaking so its time to change.

I have a 580254933 someone gave me and I am going to try it out as I cant find any info regards the specs, worst case either she wont run at all or will not ave power at top end, unlikely its dangerous as I said before in theory its rare to have pumps that are more powerful than the Lucas.

Would be great if someone knows where to find the specs of the 933 (Saab 900 I believe) to see but if not I will try it.

For those interested all the info point to virtually all the pumps we are interested in being standardised to the 909 and 910 which have similar specs so all this talk about you need our kit as its the only safe one has me wondering if its not marketing?

For those of you interested I have also found a Marelli pump with similar specs at about 1/5th of the Bosh price.

Interested to hear from anyone who has actually tried the combinations or knows the effects of changes in Lpm (what most of the Bosch do when specs change)

I have been collecting quite a bit of info so for those of you interested here are some links.

http://www.tr6pi.com/Lucas%20Petrol%20Injection.pdf Page 8 shows lucas fuel specs

http://www.leicestertr.co.uk/Part%20Numbers_files/pumps.pdf Range of pump numbers as published by Peter Winn many years ago.

https://www.auto-doc.it/magneti-marelli/7613355 Marrelli pump 6b @120lpm very cheap......It does look identical to my 973 and at that price I am tempted to get one to try.

https://www.boschfuelpumps.com/B.htm list of bosh specs

Last but not least the 2 lists of Bosch cross reference numbers. Second one is easy to read

https://www.boschfue...er Guide .htm

http://www.guzzitek....sReferences.pdf

 

If anyone has info on the 933 pump I am interested the last link shows the Saab 900 as a 909 so I am hopeful...So meanwhile I am going of to play

Tony

P.s. I have been doing a lot of research on oils and do you know that some very well done test charts showing oil resistance I have found actually point to all the chat about zinc and stuff as not being too relevant and not as worrying as some people might think. Gonna post it now separately.

Hi Tony! I have been using Bosch pump number 0-580-254-952 for 36 years it has never missed a beat! It also has a low current consumption, this pump was recommended by Bosch Engineering here in the UK as he had a TR6 with this pump fitted. KMI used to supply this pump as a conversion for the Lucas pump some years ago, they now supply an alternative. Last year I did enquire as to whether my pump was still available and was quoted 26 weeks lead time from the Bosch computer by a company called Ellis components. There is now an alternative shown on your chart # 0-580-254-910.

 

 

Bruce.

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Well Derek i gave it a burn today in very warm European weather and its fine.

Quieter and cooler than my 30 year old pump.

All very boring bog standard .

Cav to Bosch in wheel well on tubing.

No mumbo jumbo with extra pumps and stuff to go wrong.

Am thinking of trying a Bosch filter after the pump now as my tank is very old.

But as you say sleeping dogs.

I just wrote in thread to a guy who seems to be having trouble regards my boring setup.

I also saw that Marelli make a Bosch looking pump with similar specs for £30!!!!

Edited by Rem18
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Bruce from the chart my 973 was as the 910.

The 933 seems to be like the 909.

Where is yours mounted?

I think basically any pump with 130lpm@5n will do the job.

Might be fun to run the pump in the Lucas position now just to see if it works as well before I bolt it back down in the spare wheel well.

Derek is yours mounted horizontally on rubber bungs?

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Hi All,

just picked up on your thread. All very interesting as I have been running Lucas pumps on my 1972 TR6 for 30 years. Much of that time I have been running an SU pump infront of it to provide suction which the gear pump does not do. It was my article in TRaction some years ago, and on the CD now. This stops cavitation problems in hot weather. etc.

Recently the SU pump failed after 15 plus years, (it was old when fitted!) so I have removed it for now without any immediate detriment. However I have had an occasional misfire for a while under hard acceleration which appears to be due to a pressure resonance beginning around 3500 rpm till 4000 rpm when it clears, causing me to look for causes/fix.

 

The reason for writing is 2 fold.

1.Whilst I have enjoyed hanging onto the Lucas pump (just because I can!) I am thinking of giving the Morrelli unit a try at that money because if it is better than a 30+ Lucas, why not. Regarding the lower pressure, a pump is rated at a pressure at a particular flow rate (there are curves of flow-rate against head for industrial pumps) so if the resistance is such that the flow-rate is restricted then the available pressure will usually be higher unless the pump is slowed down or goes into re-circulation.Unlikely with these pumps.

 

2. Whilst recuperating from a knee replacement operation over Christmas I had a couple of ideas inspired from my career in instrumentation & electronics.

 

i) to install a digital pressure indication to display fuel pressure live at all times. This would be quite expensive if one used the industrial grade sensors I would normally use in my work but a look on Ebay revealed much cheaper alternatives probably geared to automotive applications.

I found a 10 bar pressure transmitter new (from china) for £15 and a digital display for £2.50! I just needed to create a 5 volt supply and add a few resistors and a potentiometer to scale it. The fittings to install it on the feed to the MU probably cost about £5 (I had a few and I have a nephew in the tractor business able to supply me). I also fitted a pressure gauge which I used to set the display correct. Running a bit high just now at 112 psi but working well. Note cut-off valve to allow gauge to be sealed off or removed

 

ii). My ageing Lucas pump suffers during starting due to volt drop (I have also subsequently rebuilt the starter motor which helped a lot) so it occurred to me to look for a voltage booster/stabilizer. Ebay: £8.50ish for a 6 amp unit, 9-60 volts input with adjustable output. I have set this to 13 volts and now the pump hardly slows during starting, maintaining pressure, aiding starting. Whilst your new pumps may not suffer this it could still be of interest.

I have attached a few images and could provide full details if anyone is interested. Time will tell if the booster is reliable but it has been fine a few weeks. Easily bypassed if it fails.

 

just my six-penneth worth,

regards, John

 

post-3798-0-60052600-1524355215_thumb.jpg

post-3798-0-33065700-1524355229_thumb.jpg

post-3798-0-00654600-1524355244_thumb.jpg

post-3798-0-90369400-1524355254_thumb.jpg

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Gosh John a lot to digest here.

Will look forward to a full report on your pressure monitoring system.

I have to say that my philosophy is just drive it and see. Although I have driven in past with a gauge sticking out of the bonnet....

I live in a hot climate, drive hard and live in town center so often have traffic in and out. The oil cooler seems to handle all the extra heat well and cant say I have ever had problems.

I have a road going f3 car with a jetronic system and that suffers terribly from cavitation if the turbo get used too much. But the Tr5 have never had trouble.

That said new pump only road tested first time yesterday (driving again today). Thinking of adding a simple fuel filter upstream or a Bosch filter downstream (as my tank is very old) along with the cav now but maybe thats overkill?

Interested to hear more about the curves as to why a Bosch 5b@120lpm works as a swap for a Lucas 7.6b@80lpm???

Do you need a link to the Marelli pump?

Tony

Edited by Rem18
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The PI system operating pressure is largely dependant on the setting of the PRV.

 

Petrol is used by the injectors or bypassed by the PRV at the pressure that the PRV is set at. The fuel pump settles down on its operating curve at a point at which its flow and pressure matches the flow and pressure through the combined injectors and PRV. I can't recall any figures but I suspect that,to maintain a more or less constant pressure at the injectors, the flow through the PRV will have to dwarf the flow to the injectors.

 

Regardless of the pump make , it's the pressure it can supply the combined PRV + injector's at their design set point that's important.

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Tony,

 

Mine is mounted horizontally as shown in the attached image. I am able to run the tank empty so despite being in the old Lucas position it does function reliably.

 

cheers

 

Derek

 

post-1290-0-54465000-1524411430_thumb.jpg

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Haha Mike yes I had got that bit figured.

My question was more about the difference between the Lucas and Bosch pressures and how different they are.

It seems to me there must be a cross over between bar and Lpm.

T

 

The PI system operating pressure is largely dependant on the setting of the PRV.

 

Petrol is used by the injectors or bypassed by the PRV at the pressure that the PRV is set at. The fuel pump settles down on its operating curve at a point at which its flow and pressure matches the flow and pressure through the combined injectors and PRV. I can't recall any figures but I suspect that,to maintain a more or less constant pressure at the injectors, the flow through the PRV will have to dwarf the flow to the injectors.

 

Regardless of the pump make , it's the pressure it can supply the combined PRV + injector's at their design set point that's important.

Edited by Rem18
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Derek very interesting.

Your proof that there is head.

In reality your pump is at near ground level.

Mine is in the wheel well.

T

 

Tony,

 

Mine is mounted horizontally as shown in the attached image. I am able to run the tank empty so despite being in the old Lucas position it does function reliably.

 

cheers

 

Derek

 

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John just noticed you have 8b at the meetering unit on a Bosch pump rated at 5b. Curious.

The 933 I just fitted had an 8mm nozzle which I replaced with the 10mm one off the 973.

 

Hi All,

just picked up on your thread. All very interesting as I have been running Lucas pumps on my 1972 TR6 for 30 years. Much of that time I have been running an SU pump infront of it to provide suction which the gear pump does not do. It was my article in TRaction some years ago, and on the CD now. This stops cavitation problems in hot weather. etc.

Recently the SU pump failed after 15 plus years, (it was old when fitted!) so I have removed it for now without any immediate detriment. However I have had an occasional misfire for a while under hard acceleration which appears to be due to a pressure resonance beginning around 3500 rpm till 4000 rpm when it clears, causing me to look for causes/fix.

 

The reason for writing is 2 fold.

1.Whilst I have enjoyed hanging onto the Lucas pump (just because I can!) I am thinking of giving the Morrelli unit a try at that money because if it is better than a 30+ Lucas, why not. Regarding the lower pressure, a pump is rated at a pressure at a particular flow rate (there are curves of flow-rate against head for industrial pumps) so if the resistance is such that the flow-rate is restricted then the available pressure will usually be higher unless the pump is slowed down or goes into re-circulation.Unlikely with these pumps.

 

2. Whilst recuperating from a knee replacement operation over Christmas I had a couple of ideas inspired from my career in instrumentation & electronics.

 

i) to install a digital pressure indication to display fuel pressure live at all times. This would be quite expensive if one used the industrial grade sensors I would normally use in my work but a look on Ebay revealed much cheaper alternatives probably geared to automotive applications.

I found a 10 bar pressure transmitter new (from china) for £15 and a digital display for £2.50! I just needed to create a 5 volt supply and add a few resistors and a potentiometer to scale it. The fittings to install it on the feed to the MU probably cost about £5 (I had a few and I have a nephew in the tractor business able to supply me). I also fitted a pressure gauge which I used to set the display correct. Running a bit high just now at 112 psi but working well. Note cut-off valve to allow gauge to be sealed off or removed

 

ii). My ageing Lucas pump suffers during starting due to volt drop (I have also subsequently rebuilt the starter motor which helped a lot) so it occurred to me to look for a voltage booster/stabilizer. Ebay: £8.50ish for a 6 amp unit, 9-60 volts input with adjustable output. I have set this to 13 volts and now the pump hardly slows during starting, maintaining pressure, aiding starting. Whilst your new pumps may not suffer this it could still be of interest.

I have attached a few images and could provide full details if anyone is interested. Time will tell if the booster is reliable but it has been fine a few weeks. Easily bypassed if it fails.

 

just my six-penneth worth,

regards, John

 

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Tony,

 

Mine is mounted horizontally as shown in the attached image. I am able to run the tank empty so despite being in the old Lucas position it does function reliably.

 

cheers

 

Derek

 

Hi Derek! That installation to me looks like an old KMI pump mounting bracket from 30 to 35 years ago. My pump had the same mounting bracket and rubber mounts from a PI man in Harlow - Essex in 1982

 

Bruce

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Bruce from the chart my 973 was as the 910.

The 933 seems to be like the 909.

Where is yours mounted?

I think basically any pump with 130lpm@5n will do the job.

Might be fun to run the pump in the Lucas position now just to see if it works as well before I bolt it back down in the spare wheel well.

Derek is yours mounted horizontally on rubber bungs?

 

Mine is mounted vertically on the original CAV Filter mounting position using a coil clamp around the body as it is the same size as a Lucas coil. No drilling is required!

 

Bruce.

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Hi Tony,

sorry if I was not clear. I am still running a Lucas pump. I have had 3 over the years, this one is a mix of them all. Best motor & best gears.

I have lapped the pump faces on 1000 grade wet & dry in the past to get rid of some scores. Has been generally OK with a short trip to France last year giving no trouble.

However I will drop the PRV setting soon now I have a fitted gauge. I will probably set it a little above the 105 psi recommended as it does not seem to hurt.

I will do a write up shortly with Ebay numbers, etc so you can repeat my digital gauge if you are interested.

In the past I have run a gauge on a temporary pipe from the boot to check driving pressure, not quite as correct as at the metering unit. Now with the digital readout it is certainly interesting to be able to see the pressure under hard acceleration. Generally I drop only 1 to 2 psi with the current setup.

Whilst a permanent pressure readout may be a bit of overkill it will be nice to have it available as an instant check if ever there is a misfire. I find it is all too easy to blame the pump for any issues, for instance a recent problem turned out to be the coil HT lead, only discovered when it eventually failed altogether, letting me down on a group run!

Yes please on the Marelli link as it might be interesting to give it a try.

 

John

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Haha Mike yes I had got that bit figured.

My question was more about the difference between the Lucas and Bosch pressures and how different they are.

It seems to me there must be a cross over between bar and Lpm.

T

 

If the pump can supply enough pressure to operate the injection system there is no point in using a higher pressure pump-it will still fall back to whatever it can supply at the system set flow rate- any excess head is lost heating up fuel returning to the tank.

 

For the record my current pump is supplying 160 L/H and I'm happy with it -plenty of acceleration through the gears but my local PI expert recommends replacing it with a Bosch 0580 254 044 which is capable of 200 L/h. I should add that my engine has been bored to 2.7L.

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Your extra bore?

Did you need to uprate fuel rate?

 

The MU fuelling curve had to be upgraded to one developed by our local PI specialist (BowerPower) for 2.7L engines fitted with TR5 cams. I don't know if they would appreciate the curve being made public but it is different to the standard Lucas fuelling curve.

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