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Help and Advice wanted ref TR4


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#1 bnseven

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 11:59 AM

First post on here so apologies if I should have done my introductions first and also if I have jumped onto the wrong part of the forum with this;

 

Did a bit of historic rallying as a driver about 20 years ago, used a frogeye, MGA, Midget & an A40 but haven't done an event since 2002 until a pal rang me and asked me to do the HERO winter challenge as navigator. Had so much fun have decided that I have a need for a historic road rally car/odd track day car and whilst I did think AH3000, having had one of those for 15 years am now convinced it will be a TR4...

 

Obviously the best buy is one that has been set up for rallies before as the last chap has done the shakedown/expense. There is one that is for sale and has been for a bit which looks interesting, it has fibreglass wings though and I am pretty sure that in some regs these are not permitted. Is this an absolute or does it depend on how strict the scrutineers are? I have known plenty of frogeyes rallying with plastic fronts without an issue and the car I have in mind has apparently done 4 le Jogs... What do the experts think??

 

Does anyone on here know the car I am referring to or is aware of any others that may be about to come to market??

 

my real name is Kevin Needham and I live near Newmarket in Suffolk.

 

Thanks in advance for your collective wisdom


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#2 Tom Boyd

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 12:53 PM

Kevin,

Feel free to call me for advice. My number is 01623 793807.

I am currently out the office though, at Mallory shaking down a TR4a and a dolomite sprint.

You could pm me your number and I will call when convenient to you

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#3 Hamish

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 01:52 PM

Kevin
If its this one ?
https://m.carandclas....uk/car/C893467

I like the look of it and would have been a very serious consideration if I hadnt bought my 3a

its been up for sale for a while now. Perhaps the purists are put off by the fibreglass? you could get a bargain.

You would be very welcome in the clubs sprint and hill climb champs with it as we have a class that caters for this cars mods.

http://www.tr-regist...o.uk/motorsport

Best of luck whatever you decide.

H
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#4 cvtrian

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 01:59 PM

Or you could try a TR4 on the HERO arrive and drive scheme:-

 

https://heroevents.e...iumph-tr4-1964/(I believe Tom Boyd knows a great deal about the car and its preparation)

 

Good luck

 

You could do worse than contact TR4tony on this forum - he and his partner are regular HERO event participants.

 

Ian


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#5 bnseven

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 02:17 PM

Well spotted Hamish. Thats the one i have been looking at but am sure there are others. Can quite easily convert a standard car but rather not mess a good one about if a ready prepped car out there.

Doing an odd sprint also crossed my mind, especially as my pal who drove on the winter challenge hill climbs and sprints a midget...

Pms and phone calls to follow. Thanks for replies so far
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#6 stuart

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 02:46 PM

If you bought that then a set of the Bastuck steel wings for it wouldnt actually make it too expensive.(+about £2k +paint)

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#7 bnseven

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 08:00 AM

I had considered the steel wings option and suspect that that route might be more cost effective than prepping a standard steel car....

 

but just wondering if the fibreglass wings a major issue in respect of scrutineering, as I said used to be frogeyes out on rallies with plastic fronts and was never a problem although mine was an all steel car....


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#8 stuart

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 09:06 AM

I think it depends on what series you wish to compete in, get the regs for the series and read all of it including the small print and then build your car to suit. Its often the case with what looks like a nice rally rep that when you look closely you will find that its no good to actually use as it doesnt comply with any series regs.

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#9 bnseven

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 04:14 PM

there's the rub though, Ideally I was going to pick and choose a few, guess depends on what permit they run under.A few HERO type events will be on the radar and the car has apparently done those before so it would seem there are no problems scrutineering there issues might be with smaller club events


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#10 DaveN

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 11:19 AM

If they have to be metal.... could you get away with alloy ones?
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#11 TorontoTim

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:58 AM

If they have to be metal.... could you get away with alloy ones?

 

Yes - TR4 used these in period. 

 

HOWEVER, it is always essential to check the regulations for the series you are planning to run, just in case.  (For example, additional lights that were used in period are no longer legal - only a small point, but it shows that sometimes things aren't as clear as they might be (or should be...???)).

 

BTW, I'm aware that I'm commenting on UK regulations from Canada so, although I used to rally in the UK and try to keep up with the latest rules (at least in general), that's an additional reason to check the regs of your series.  Technical co-ordinators and/or scrutineers (as well as others rallying TR4s) are usually very helpful - no-one is trying to stop you joining in the fun...


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#12 bnseven

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 08:49 AM

Thanks for the advice and thoughts, as I am struggling to make contact with the vendor of the car in question the issue of non metal wings is rather becoming a non issue, think I will have to sit on my hands for a bit or just go and buy a steel road car and do the rally bits to it which I was initially loathe to do but don't mind getting my hands dirty...


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#13 bnseven

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 11:17 AM

apologies for bumping my own thread, but suffice to say I didn't buy a rally prepped TR4 with fibreglass wings, I have bought a completely standard all steel car and now the expense begins!

 

My initial thoughts are to run the car as is this year and start changing things next year with a Target of the Hero Winter Challenge in 2020 as a likely event.

 

My thoughts as to what needs to be done are keep it simple and reliable. Heavier rate springs, polybushes and anti roll bar. Sump Guard. Alternator and narrow belt. spots and reverse light,  roll hoop and some form of hard roof. Ally firewall.

 

Its only for road rallies and my intial thoughts are that it wont need to be made any faster initially, however I suspect the collective wisdom is that I am a long way from the mark. About 20 years ago I did run a completely standard MGA in a lot of road events and it worked fine...sump was a bit dinged afterwards though!!

 

any thoughts??


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#14 Motorsport Mickey

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 11:48 AM

Yep, beware putting a front anti roll bar on in isolation, it turns understeer into UNDERSTEER.
Fit a rear anti roll bar with it which allows you to balance the car by changing the cars suspension stiffness between the two, if you want a guide onto Bump steer removal on TRs PM ( click on my car picture and select Personal Message) me your e mail address and I'll send it you. Sent it to over 130 members so far and counting.

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#15 TorontoTim

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 05:23 PM

Hi BNSeven (do you have another name?),

 

I think what you are planning to do is a good starting point.  Mick's advice re: anti-roll bars is good, although I run a front bar with no rear and don't have an understeer problem - but then many competitive sections here in Canada are run on loose surfaces where it's really easy to get the back end moving on the throttle to balance the handling or create oversteer where needed.  Think about uprating the front dampers too if you're going for harder springs.

 

Make sure the brakes are in tip top shape - I'd go for all new hoses and fluid and check lines and joints for leaks.  Fit new pads unless you have loads of meat on the ones you have now.  Check the rear shoes for meat too and adjust them up.

 

Reliability is most important.  Go through everything to ensure it's in good shape - especially electrics and ignition system - and carry spare fuses and bulbs in case you need them.

 

Also, if you change ANYTHING before you go out on an event, make sure you do it early and drive the car quite a bit (including down bad roads to give it a good shake) - it's always good practice to make sure nothing that you've just changed falls off or needs a second round of nipping up with the spanner.

 

I'm happy to send you a spec sheet for my car if you like.  It is reasonably standard and I've never found it too slow on Canadian events; I remember that UK events can sometimes have some very tight sections where you need to keep the speed up but, to be honest, driving ability, navigation and confidence (in both of these) will have more impact on your times than the detailed spec of a TR4 most of the time until you get up at the sharp end on very serious events (IMO).

 

I have no doubt others will help with anything you need - keep asking if you have questions.

 

Cheers,

Tim


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#16 bnseven

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 06:45 PM

Thanks Tim, all sound advice. Braided hoses and harder pads are a given for me in any case so had rather left them off my potted 'to do' list!

Will run this as a daily driver for rest of the summer before i start pulling things apart.

We have done a good few events in the 90's so have a fair idea what we need its just every car is slightly different so always best to seek experienced advice.

Just wondered what it is about TR4 that makes the rear a/r bar so desireable?? Have run spridgets, A's, B's, A40 and Big Healey without them in the past....

Oh and name is Kevin, my parents didnt really name me after a healey chassis prefix...
..
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#17 Motorsport Mickey

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 07:57 PM


Just wondered what it is about TR4 that makes the rear a/r bar so desireable?? Have run spridgets, A's, B's, A40 and Big Healey without them in the past....


Balance...Kastner in his very successful 1965 season where the TR4a ran in fully modified and won it said the following

" The first efforts applied to the suspension ( IRS) did not bring optimum results, and the sorting out process was to continue throughout the season. Ultimately, Kastner settled on Spring rates about 10 % higher at the front and 40 % higher at the rear. An Anti roll bar, with a diameter of 9/16th of an inch was installed between the rear wheels to add roll stiffness. None is used, or required for the front suspension."

In my opinion the TR4 is better than the 4a ( doesn't have a factory anti roll bar fitted) but still benefits from having a combined front AND rear anti roll bar fitted to adjust the balance of the handling. Fitting anti roll bars to one end of the car either front or rear alters 2 different parameters, across car stiffness and chassis roll height, that gives nasty different handling characteristics in various corners.
Kevin, read the e mail I'm sending you about altering bump steer on TRs.

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#18 bnseven

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:02 PM

Thanks Mick, looking fwd to it!!
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#19 Motorsport Mickey

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:28 PM

Kevin,

Forgot to say Tims point is very pertinent. I was a Tarmac racer so different characteristics, If you are loose surfaces then the rear end may be able to be broken away more easily as Tim suggests.
But all I would say is the standard characteristic without the anti roll bar is understeer and so may be worth trying without to establish your datum.

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#20 stuart

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Posted 09 June 2018 - 12:31 PM

As I have a solid axle 4a its a completely different animal and I have found that its much better with no bars either end but shocks on the front wound up pretty hard and uprated rear lever arms with the spring clamps works for me, very little body roll and as it has a good amount of power to weight with a 50/50 balance you can steer it with the right hand pedal quite well as soon as you unstick the rear with a prod of the throttle.

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