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Whats going on, was I right or was I wrong ?


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Had a gearbox failure and at the time when dealing with the supplier I was asked what oil I used, which was Morris SAE 40.

I was then told by them and also on the forum I used the wrong oil and should of used EP90 and that Triumph specified this even with an overdrive fitted, I was then worried that I had contributed to the failure and might not get anywhere with my claim of an incorrectly made part.

This morning I read in TR Action that you don't ever use EP90 as the Laycock manual forbids it and everyone is recommending SAE40, the very oil I was told was wrong.

So yesturday went out and bought EP90 for the day I get my gearbox back after rebuild, do I now take it back and use SAE40.

I would assume my gearbox will have a warranty for a period of time, if it suffers a failure within this time and I've used oil that is not specified where would I stand.

It all seems a nonsense to me.

Chris.

 

 

 

 

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I agree Chris, its all rather confusing! In your case I would ask teh people who have rebuilt your gearbox what they recommend. That way the warranty will remain valid!

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Chris,

 

There are different opinions on the grade of oil to use

in a gearbox/o/d gearbox.

 

Normal gearbox - stick to what the factory recommend -

EP90 I think.

 

With overdrive, you have factory info - and Laycock info.

Most owners go with engine oil in the gearbox when overdrive

is fitted, based on Laycock info.

I suspect the factory didn't really consider the effect of the

overdrive and stayed with EP90 but over time, I think the

use of normal engine grade oil has proved more popular.

 

If everything is working as it should, you are probably OK

with either!

 

I happen to use a gearbox type grade oil and I like how the

overdrive comes in so quickly. (gearbox upgraded)

But - I only use the car in summer months - if I used my TR

during the winter months, I would probably change (but I am

overseas over winter!)

 

That's how (non) critical it can be.

 

AlanR

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I've been using Penrite GB40 oil in my 5's gearbox, as recommended previously by forum users. However, looking at the recent thread on "Penrite Oils", it seems that Penrite now recommends its Mild EP oil. Is there any consensus on what's best?

 

Darren

Edited by TR5tar
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I agree Chris, its all rather confusing! In your case I would ask teh people who have rebuilt your gearbox what they recommend. That way the warranty will remain valid!

+1

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I have always used 20/50 engine oil in the gearbox with OD fitted.... but I have never had a warranty to worry about on any Triumph gearbox either!

If you need to stay in alignment with a warranty then Bens advice is spot-on, ask them and stick to their guidance

 

...... Andy

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I use EP 90 gl4 I have had in in my a type overdrive box for the last 12 years and no problems it’s in the brown bible as a recommended oil.

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Here in the 'States the use of SAE 30W non-detergent has been so thoroughly validated that it's recommendation has become the conventional wisdom.

 

GL90 and SAE 50 have roughly the same viscosity. GL80W-90 and SAE 40 ought to line up pretty evenly. The SAE 30W enables smoother operation while cold, and I reckon it gives a marginal improvement in fuel economy. On that point, a synthetic differential oil I use is very thin, and seemed to add a MPG when it first went in.

 

I don't think the rebuilder has a leg to stand on if he's blaming the oil.

 

Cheers,

Tom

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For Gearbox Castrol 80W90 GL4

For Diff Castrol 90 GL5

 

as long as you use GL4 for GB and GL5 for Diff.

 

....but I am sure this issue has been covered....I might as well get me some beer and chips....

 

Jochem

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In general:

If you run a thicker oil, due to friction the oil will warm up more, and the oil will get (more) thin (relative).

So an SAE50 oil will get hotter in the same gearbox application than a 30 or 40 oil.

With a thicker grade, cold shifting can be heavier, and fuel economy is reduced.

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Had a gearbox failure and at the time when dealing with the supplier I was asked what oil I used, which was Morris SAE 40.

I was then told by them and also on the forum I used the wrong oil and should of used EP90 and that Triumph specified this even with an overdrive fitted, I was then worried that I had contributed to the failure and might not get anywhere with my claim of an incorrectly made part.

This morning I read in TR Action that you don't ever use EP90 as the Laycock manual forbids it and everyone is recommending SAE40, the very oil I was told was wrong.

So yesturday went out and bought EP90 for the day I get my gearbox back after rebuild, do I now take it back and use SAE40.

I would assume my gearbox will have a warranty for a period of time, if it suffers a failure within this time and I've used oil that is not specified where would I stand.

It all seems a nonsense to me.

Chris.

 

 

 

 

Hi Chris! What failed in your rebuilt gearbox , was it the lay-shaft? I know that originally Laycock did not like hypoid oil but that was in the days of TR2s, as hypoid oil attacked the asbestos clutch lining and made it go soft and then break up the lining.That was 50 years ago! We don't use asbestos any more. The word hypoid refers to the tooth form in the gear box or diff unit, hence the use of hypoid oil. My gear box lasted 44 years before rebuild and I always used EP90 as per the brown book. Yes it could be difficult to select 2nd gear when cold but that problem went after 2 to 3 miles. I personally would not use engine oil as it was never designed for that application but there is a case to use Mini engine oil as that was designed as an engine/gearbox oil with a hypoid additive.

 

Bruce.

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It's an interesting topic, this one.

 

Probably the biggest users of Laycock overdrives were Triumph, Jaguar, Volvo and MG.

 

Triumph and Jaguar always recommended EP90.

 

MG always recommended engine oil which, by the 1960s we can assume to be (by today's standard) low foaming, low detergent 20W/50.

 

Volvo always recommended ATF.

 

I doubt there was ever a deluge of warranty claims relating to overdrives back in the day so that suggests to me that the overdrive is tolerant of different oils.

 

I used EP90 always in a range of Triumphs and never had a problem. Some of the arguments about mono grade or low-tech 20W/50 engine oils are quite persuasive but they would have to be non-foaming. But if the illustrious Triumph and Jaguar engineers specified EP90 I can't really see any argument against that. They would surely have consulted the Laycock people when deciding their oil recommendations.

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Yes it was the layshaft that failed. Maybe i'll try the EP90 as i've bought it and see how it behaves.

 

Chris.

Hi Chris! Thanks for your response. I suffered the same problem but my replacement lay-shaft did not get past the sales counter of Moss. Having read' Roger Williams book on How to Improve your TR' printed in 2002. It states that one must do the file test on the edge of the shaft, as there are sub-standard ones in the market place. This I did and filed a flat on the edge and I told the counter staff that it was NBG i.e .Soft. He went away and one of their technical bods came out and spoke to me. I told him that the hardness s/b around 60 Rockwell C Scale, which would make it file proof. To cut this story short he tested the hardness of another 4 and they were only 40 Rockwell? Which confirmed my file test. He then informed me that he had with-drawn all their stock which was 52 but the BIG BUT was they had already sold 48 out of a batch of 100. So are you another victim? If so you should have words with your re-builder. Also go for the 3 needle roller bearing mod that ORS do on the lay-gear. If it is any comfort to you this saga has even caught out the TR gearbox guru as he has had some returns with this fault.

Good Luck.

 

Bruce.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All,

Not been on the forum in a long while but happened to pick up on this thread and want to give a word of warning.

 

As background I have have been running my 1972 TR6 gbox with OD on EP90 since 1980.

For various reasons I have had to rebuild the gbox 3 times!

1st to fix a bad synchro,

2nd due to a long lay-up my OD stuck in drive when I reversed with catastrophic results.

Moral of that one is to disconnect the solenoid for several miles after a layup to warm it all up and be very careful to ensure the OD disengages before reversing when you reconnect it. If not the DO NOT reverse. V expensive. The bits ruined the gbox bearings, etc.

Now here is my reason for commenting:

The 3rd rebuild was caused by my use of GL5 EP90 after an oil change. In my ignorance I listened to the local spares factor (i.e inexperienced non-mechanic) who said "yeah, GL5 is the new standard and better than GL4".

Turns out that it is for modern steel bearing gearboxes but causes phosphor bronze bushes to swell.

After about 1000-2000 miles I changed from 2nd to 3rd, head a loud squeal, then a bang and took all the teeth of 4 gears when it seized up! . It friction welded one of the PB bushes to the steel shaft absolutely solid! You can't be in 2nd and 3rd at the same time

Now only useful as a clutch alignment tool.and paper weights.

This was 5 years or so ago and been working fine since the rebuild with up-rated stag layshaft etc.

Sorry if this old news to you all but better safe than sorry

So make sure you use GL4

 

all the best, John

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Hi All,

Not been on the forum in a long while but happened to pick up on this thread and want to give a word of warning.

 

As background I have have been running my 1972 TR6 gbox with OD on EP90 since 1980.

For various reasons I have had to rebuild the gbox 3 times!

1st to fix a bad synchro,

2nd due to a long lay-up my OD stuck in drive when I reversed with catastrophic results.

Moral of that one is to disconnect the solenoid for several miles after a layup to warm it all up and be very careful to ensure the OD disengages before reversing when you reconnect it. If not the DO NOT reverse. V expensive. The bits ruined the gbox bearings, etc.

Now here is my reason for commenting:

The 3rd rebuild was caused by my use of GL5 EP90 after an oil change. In my ignorance I listened to the local spares factor (i.e inexperienced non-mechanic) who said "yeah, GL5 is the new standard and better than GL4".

Turns out that it is for modern steel bearing gearboxes but causes phosphor bronze bushes to swell.

After about 1000-2000 miles I changed from 2nd to 3rd, head a loud squeal, then a bang and took all the teeth of 4 gears when it seized up! . It friction welded one of the PB bushes to the steel shaft absolutely solid! You can't be in 2nd and 3rd at the same time

Now only useful as a clutch alignment tool.and paper weights.

This was 5 years or so ago and been working fine since the rebuild with up-rated stag layshaft etc.

Sorry if this old news to you all but better safe than sorry

So make sure you use GL4

 

all the best, John

I remember the club night when you walked in and dropped the seized lump of shaft/cogs on the table. "What do you think of that chaps!"

Stuart.

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Hi John, thanks for the warning GL4 is what I have for the gearbox but while i'm off the road I was going to change the diff oil, can anyone tell me if GL4 is the one to use in that as well.

Cheers Chris.

 

Hello Chris,

I mentioned this in my post #11.

 

Diff uses GL5.

 

Jochem

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Hi All,

Not been on the forum in a long while but happened to pick up on this thread and want to give a word of warning.

 

As background I have have been running my 1972 TR6 gbox with OD on EP90 since 1980.

For various reasons I have had to rebuild the gbox 3 times!

1st to fix a bad synchro,

2nd due to a long lay-up my OD stuck in drive when I reversed with catastrophic results.

Moral of that one is to disconnect the solenoid for several miles after a layup to warm it all up and be very careful to ensure the OD disengages before reversing when you reconnect it. If not the DO NOT reverse. V expensive. The bits ruined the gbox bearings, etc.

Now here is my reason for commenting:

The 3rd rebuild was caused by my use of GL5 EP90 after an oil change. In my ignorance I listened to the local spares factor (i.e inexperienced non-mechanic) who said "yeah, GL5 is the new standard and better than GL4".

Turns out that it is for modern steel bearing gearboxes but causes phosphor bronze bushes to swell.

After about 1000-2000 miles I changed from 2nd to 3rd, head a loud squeal, then a bang and took all the teeth of 4 gears when it seized up! . It friction welded one of the PB bushes to the steel shaft absolutely solid! You can't be in 2nd and 3rd at the same time

Now only useful as a clutch alignment tool.and paper weights.

This was 5 years or so ago and been working fine since the rebuild with up-rated stag layshaft etc.

Sorry if this old news to you all but better safe than sorry

So make sure you use GL4

 

all the best, John

Hi John! Are you certain that when you had problem no 2 that the bronze bush had not been embedded with steel swarf which was not picked up at the time of that rebuild and this was the cause of your seize up. As I have seen this happen in the past on a motor cycle gearbox with bronze bushes, with similar results. My gear box lasted 44 years with EP 90 and failed with lay shaft whine/ needle roller bearings, the usual TR fault but there was very little wear else where!

 

Bruce

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Hi Bruce,

I don't think that this was the reason because I had done a big rebuild with new bearings, etc. and had cleaned it all thoroughly.

After the seize up I happened to go to a local carnival and met my engineering apprenticeship mechanical engineering tutor from 40 years ago.

He has now retired after along career in engineering and has rebuilt many 1930s, 40s & 50s classics. I told him what had just happened and it was he that instantly said " you used the wrong oil boy!" and informed me about the effect that GL5 oil has on phosphor bronze bearings, so I have never doubted his knowledge.

I am not sure if I am allowed to insert quotes from other sites - copyright, etc. so here is a link to one of many interesting articles on the subject for you. All to do with added sulphides attacking yellow metals, copper, bronze,etc

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120197

 

Regarding GL5 in the diff, I do not recall if there are any yellow metal bearings in it, I don't think so GL5 may well be OK.

Perhaps you need to refer to the parts/rebuild manual to verify or just use GL4 EP90.

 

regards, John

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