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A couple of items I've purchased in the past couple of weeks, which seem to me like particularly good value . . . .

 

On the 'bay, GL4 gear oil, 5lts for a little over £18 delivered, Millers are reliable folks in my experience

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Millers-Oils-EP-80W90-GL4-Mineral-Gear-Gearbox-Rear-Axle-Oil-5-L-5320GG/272070758210?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

and from Fluids in Motorsport, a box of 4 x 4lts Silkolube delivered for £64 . . . . an engine oil I've used for many years and found more than satisfactory

 

https://shop.fluidsinmotorsport.co.uk/department/mineral_engine_oils/

 

usual disclaimers, I'm just a customer !

 

Cheers

 

Alec

 

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I'm going to try a can of Halfords Classic OIl. 20W/50 and when I asked Comma OIls who make it for Hafords, how much ZDDP, they said at least 800ppm (0.08%), whihc is the level recommended in "Which Oil?" by Richard Michell.

£20, which compares well with Alec's good stuff.

JOhn

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If Prof.PeteC was here he would say you need more than 1000ppm ZDDP. So the Halfords is a little short

 

But it is not as simple as that as there may be other additives making the mix more usable.

 

I bought some Heritage Classic 20/50 engine oil (1300ppm ZDDP) last month for apprx £18/gallon.

 

This actually feels more gloopy than the Halfords offering (almost like STP but slightly thinner) - we shall see.

 

Roger

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I'm going to try a can of Halfords Classic OIl. 20W/50 and when I asked Comma OIls who make it for Hafords, how much ZDDP, they said at least 800ppm (0.08%), whihc is the level recommended in "Which Oil?" by Richard Michell.

£20, which compares well with Alec's good stuff.

JOhn

If you review the previous threads you'll see that Peter C is very clear that marketing oil as having 800ppm ZDDP is very misleading and a change from how the ZDDP content was marketed. The Zinc part of the oil needs to be over 1200PPM and extolled as such, for example the Classic Heritage Oil is marketed as

 

post-6602-0-28561300-1520469739_thumb.png

 

Which is clear and concise and scientific, and how it should be defined, saying it has ZDDP at 800ppm is not the same thing at all and well short of what's required.

 

This post by Peter C pinned down the problem.

 

I think there's now another angle that we need to be aware of when reading labels on ZDDP concentration.

The 1100 to 1400 ppm Mick refers to in #8 is a measure of either the Zn or P concentration and NOT THE CONCENTRATION of ZDDP. Zn and P contribute roughly equally to the weight of the ZDDP molecule so which is used doesn't matter.

BUT a crafty seller wants to put a bigger ppm number on the label could easily use the mass of the whole ZDDP molecule. There are many different ZDDP molecular species varying in molecular mass from 400 to 2000.In any ZDDP molecule there are 1 Zinc and 2 Phosphorus with respective atomic weights of Zn=65 and P= 30. So if the whole ZDDP molecule weighs around 400, the Zn ( or P) contributes around 60-ish, or about 15%.

SO an oil with say 200ppm Zn ( rubbish for our engines) could be labelled as having 1400 ppm ZDPP. That "1400 ppm ZDDP" would be scientifically correct and legal labelling (as far as I know) But it is not the way the level has been expressed in the past which was as ppm Zn. You'd buy the 1400, yes? but not 200 ppm. Beware !!

 

WHAT to DO ? If the label says ZDDP as Zn ( or P) = 1100 to 1400 ppm region we are sure to be OK, and this is conventional labelling

If the label simply says ZDDP = 1100 to 1400 ppm ( or more!) we have no idea what the Zn or P content is, and the oil may be at least 7 times lower in ZDDP than we expect. That is b88ger all antiscuff. I would not buy that oil without supplier's lab (not a sales person) confirming the Zn or P ppm.

Apologies for the long-winded explanation - sometimes science does not reduce to commonsense explanations.

A lot of the posts above quoting ZDDP levels when what is actually meant is Zn or P ppm.

Peter

PS The recent report of a label stating 5000ppm alerted me to this label problem. If that were 5000ppm Zn then that's a extraordinarily high concentration that could damage bearig shells etc. BUT if it refers to 5000ppm ZDDP then the Zn is 15% of that or 700 ppm Not enough for us. Worse, if the ZDDP species were bigger the Zn could be even lower.

Edited by Peter Cobbold, 11 November 2017 - 08:06 PM.

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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I was simply trying to mention what seemed like good value . . . . . not start yet another wretched ZDDP debate.

 

It all reminds me of 25-30 years ago when unleaded fuel was going to wreck all our engines in no time flat, and many of those engines are today still going strong regardless.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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Thanks Alec

I've been using the Silkolene Classic oil for many years too, despite the fact that the ZDDP figure no longer seems to be given out by the manufacturer(!).

I wonder, based on the "Classic Oils" website, whether the Silkolene product is being discontinued.

 

Anyway, I've ordered 4 of the oil - another years worth of oil changes for the TR, Stag and Midget.

 

Perhaps the ZDDP issue should be investigated by the FBHVC with a view to getting all manufacturers to quote content on a consistent and meaningful basis. Could the TRR officially request this as it is a big issue for classic owners

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I was simply trying to mention what seemed like good value . . . . . not start yet another wretched ZDDP debate.

 

It all reminds me of 25-30 years ago when unleaded fuel was going to wreck all our engines in no time flat, and many of those engines are today still going strong regardless.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

Well said Alec.

No doubt hardened valve seats and DDDP bring tangible benefits but in the wider scheme of things most owners probably do not exceed much more than 1000 miles/year. So wear in these areas is probably not a problem unless you use the car in competition.

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Thank you Alec for the heads up. I've just bought 5 litres of gear oil which does indeed look like great value from a reputable supplier.

 

FWIW, I've used Halfords Classic 20W50 engine oil in several classics over many years and tens of thousands of miles. No ill effects that I'm aware of, and good value especially with a trade card.

 

Nigel

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Thanks Alec

Thanks Mick - what oil do you use?

Rog

When I was competing (90s) Millers or Penrith.

With the road going TR I too used to use Halfords but since have been using the Classic Oils as shown, in the Stag.

One of the attractions is honest declaration of what they sell, cynically we might think that they could tell us anything, but what quality should we award then to the oil companies who either refuse to say anything or who quote it in a manner which confuses ? And why would they do it ?

 

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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My four cans of Silkolene have just arrived.

They are 4 litres in metal cans - I wasn't sure what might arrive as the website showed 5l plastic cans.

Still good value (if they had been 5l, it would have been even better)

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Thanks Alec

I've been using the Silkolene Classic oil for many years too, despite the fact that the ZDDP figure no longer seems to be given out by the manufacturer(!).

I wonder, based on the "Classic Oils" website, whether the Silkolene product is being discontinued.

 

Rod1883

 

Rod,

 

As you intimated from the Classic Oils website the Silkolene has been discontinued, however Classic Oils do retail the Silkolube 20W 50 and if you go onto the spec that Classic Oils quote on it you get

 

Zinc as ZDDP (ppm) 1100 Typical (quoted the correct way as well).

 

Which is on the borderline but I'd be using it if it was an oil I chose.

 

Why Classic Oils can get the numbers from Silkolene and quote them is mystifying, you'd think that Silkolene would be smart enough to realise that it makes customers wary that there's something to hide, whereas Classic Oil being a manufacturer in their own regard for their own product has possibly persuaded Silkolene that free disclosure hurts less than the speculation that anonymity brings.

 

Mick Richards

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For Valvoline try £55 / 10 litres . . . . .

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valvoline-VR1-Racing-20W-50-Car-Engine-Motor-Oil-10L-FREE-5L-SCREEN-WASH-TAB/322646541806?epid=941295416&hash=item4b1f3b85ee:g:YsAAAOSwHMJYCcuC

 

Talking today to a local garage proprietor who rebuilds a few classic engines in the course of the year, and MoTs a fair few more classics. He's read lots of stuff on ZDDT, open mind on the topic, still awaits the first engine to display damage resulting from lack of ZDDP. As we agreed, somewhat cynically, unleaded petrol springs to mind.

 

As he pointed out, some of his diy-inclined MoT customers only change their oil every 5-6 years on the basis of covering maybe 500-1000 miles annually . . . . considering the potential for lubricant deterioration in that period, the absence or presence of 'adequate' ZDDP is possibly irrelevant !

 

The other interesting point, these are the same cars which always need something doing to pass the MoT, and exactly the cars which are no longer appearing for annual inspection . . . . which doesn't augur well for future road safety.

 

Cheers

 

Alec

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The Silkolene range has gone through a range name change and new packaging, therefore a good price on old packaging but the same oil.

 

With regards to the GL4 you can get very near that for Comma GL4, a very good motor factor type brand .ie. just below the majors in name but the same quality.

 

Very inexpensive prices on ebay for 4 off 5ltr Comma GL4 oil.

 

Yes if your stocks are low and you will use it in the next year or so fill your boots at these prices.

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