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Moisture in the oil pan?


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So, whilst I wait on new wheel studs to be delivered, I figure I would tackle an oil change and fresh gaskets on the bottom. Dropped the pan and I found this - I have noticed when I removed the valve cover in the past "some" moisture, but the pressure, heat cycles, and baffle I have in the goose neck to keep it from blowing out the top, I think causes that moisture, but apparently it's elsewhere at this point in time. The oil in the pan, however, looked clean with no traces of water in it? Suggestions? Thoughts? I could try and remove the baffle and let more of the heat out, but it was installed to prevent leaks from out the top of the valve cover. I do run the British rust preventer - downdraft tube.

 

Also found the ever so small hole in the pickup screen for the pump as well. Hoping Moss or someone will have them.

 

 

 

 

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You have a lot of cars, F1loco, "too many to list"!

How often does your Tr4(?) get a run, a long run? Long enough to heat the oil and evaporate the water that condenses out of piston blow-by?

 

The bits in the sump,the middle ones look like metal, what about the others? Gasket material? Gasket sealant?

 

John

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:D

 

Just finally got it going well before this project - or at least I thought - so no typically doesn't get run but once a week or every other week for about 20 - 30 minute run.

 

Yes, two metal and a couple of others that felt like "cast" but could be older gasket material as well. Just went under the took these photos from below - should the liners look this way? 1,2,3,4 respectively. Seems number 2 is the only one that looks "flush"?

 

 

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So, how pressing is replacement of the figure 8 seals? Certainly don't want some kind of catastrophic failure, but don't want to disassemble the engine either at this juncture? Assuming that is the cause. Can this be done in the car? I have a quickjack lift so getting it up and down to work on isn't an issue.

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Hi Don,

20-30 minute run will not get it hot enough to clear any moisture away.

Are you losing water from the rad - do you have to top it up.

 

If not, why do you question the Fo8 seals.

 

Fo8 seals can be done insitu.

Head off, sump off, pistons out, liners out.

Scrupulously clean the Fo8 seating area.

insert Fo8's and sort out the liner protrusion - this is the hardest job and must be done well.

0.003 to 0.005" equal all around the line. And get all the liners to the same height.

 

You will certainly know your engine after all that.

 

Roger

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Judging by the photos, the water/oil mix seems to "dripping" from the liners in the photos in my last post - hence the figure 8 thought. Of course, it's also the highest point in which it could be slung around to and collect on and condense. It would be nice to get her running enough and longer distances to insure any moisture is burning off and see if it goes away. Realistically, how much would it need to run to burn it off? I do run waterless coolant and the water on the catch on the sump pan does appear to be "clearish" which would make think possible condensation v. figure 8 issues as the waterless coolant is brown in color? My biggest concern was whether the liners looked correct from down below? I thought they "rested" on a ledger on top of the seals from the photos I looked at, but then it wouldn't explain why the liners in 1, 3 and 4 are about 1/2" below the cast block and number 2 is practically even? Any tell tell signs if a massive figure 8 leak w/o catastrophic failure being involved? Simple case of over-heating as if it were a head gasket to look out for?

 

Once the coolant level stabilizes - usually about an 1" down from the fill spout, it doesn't seem to loose much coolant after than point in time.

 

May button it back up and drive it a bit more and see what it goes? I did put a rag up the vent tube and thick brown goop came out for what's it's worth diagnostically.

 

Thanks.

Don

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Did the water in the sump have antifreeze in it confirming that it came from the cooling system rather than being condensation?

Hard to say, but the waterless coolant I run is brown and the water appeared to be "clearish" with a hint of green (oil I assume).

 

Don

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Hi Don,

all too easy to rush in. As you say button it up and give it a good run to get the temp up and then burn off the water.

Probably a good hour.

 

Check the rad water level before and after the run. It should not move.

 

Fingers crossed that it isn;t the Fo8's

 

Roger

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Hi Don,

 

Picture 1 looks to have chips out of the bottom of the liner "skirt" (this is the bottom couple of inches that sticks down into the cylinder block "spigot "area") this liner skirt is the cylinder bore inside dia and about 2" up it has a "shoulder" about 3/16 " wide which sits on a shoulder in the block, this where the Figure of 8 gaskets sit.

As for number 2 liner looking "flush with the block material I can't ever remember any of my rebuilds (more than 20) being flush anywhere ! it's not necessary for them and they aren't machined to be that way normally sticking through maybe an 1/8th " or so.

The chips (if it is chips)in cylinder liner 1 normally come from somebody without the correct tools belting the liner on the bottom with a lump hammer (with a block of wood on the liner skirt...sometimes !) to get them out. Your picture number 3 shows what looks to be an absolutely clear water droplet on the crank shank and would make me very unhappy, because I'd start thinking that if the FO8 gasket seal hasn't broken allowing water to be pushed through, that there's a crack in a liner ! bad news and then worse.

 

Rogers right, to try and burn any moisture off (when it's water anyway) you need a considerable run, just a 30 min run will barely get any water/liquid emulsified with the oil and just provide a heat source for more condensation as the engine cools down, it ain't getting hot enough !

Now your car...your choice but many of the Auto performance shops and rolling road operators here won't test cars with the waterless coolant in it. Their view is water is the best heat removal fluid and they'll stand that mixed with glycol (antifreeze which emulsifies nicely with it) but otherwise many think that waterless coolant is used in cars with cooling problems as a way to try and prevent it. They consider the waterless coolant doesn't remove enough heat from the head (it increases the heat the engine will take preventing boiling), but that's not always good for the head and engine. Not criticising , it's your choice.

 

I should drop at least 1 big end and the centre main bearing cap (careful of the thrust washers each side of the cap, note which way they are fitted) and check the bearings for bits missing or dragged surfaces. Coolant in the oil isn't good for the bearings and needs to be sorted.

As Roger says these engines are well made and modular, you can take all bit's off right down to the crank (that's a...bit more difficult)at the side of the road and replace individual parts to bring it back to spec, but first I'd check the bearings and then if OK button up the bottom end. Then retorque the cylinder head up to 105 lbs ft, first UNDO the head studs 1 that's one flat and then torque up to the 105 lbs, these engine require a retorque after no more than 500 miles after a rebuild and if it's been rebuilt before you bought it maybe the gasket seal has relaxed (they do) allowing seepage.

 

Mick Richards

Edited by Motorsport Mickey
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F1Loco, I had this issue a few years back and it was the Fo8's in the end.

 

Replace in-situ: It's open-heart surgery, but do-able with the engine in.

 

Deck heights are critical, as Roger says. As is cleanliness: You won't believe the crap that builds-up around number 4 liner (rear-most) if it hasn't been de-sludged for a while!

 

I really hope Mick's plan works for you :)

Ade

Edited by Ade-TR4
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HI Don, if you're concerend it might be collant, you could get/make a collant system pressure tester that presurises the collant system to the normal running pressure based on your radiator cap and whilst the sump is off you can see if anything drips down over night or can be seen weeping around the liner bottoms?

Will either confirm your fears or ease your worries and its just condensation.

 

Mark

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Hi Don, thick brown goop up the vent pipe reminds me of my wife's original Ford Fiesta, I scooped a whole cup full of goop out the rocker cover of that car with droplets of clear water spread around. Nothing wrong with engine and caused by lots of short trips. Once cleaned out and used on occasional long runs the gloop never returned.

Looks like your TR needs an all day drive to dry it out, hopefully.

Chris

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Hi Don,

 

 

Fo8 seals can be done insitu.

insert Fo8's and sort out the liner protrusion - this is the hardest job and must be done well.

0.003 to 0.005" equal all around the line. And get all the liners to the same height.

 

You will certainly know your engine after all that.

 

Roger

 

Roger can you point us in the direction of getting all the protrusions right? Isn’t that a machine shop job?

And yes, I’m facing the same worry about where the coolant’s going!

JJC

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Hi JJC,

You need a combination of Fo8 thickness and liner length to give 0.003" - 0.005" protrusion.

Each liner should protrude the same amount around the liner - you don;t want one side a thou' or so lower that the other side.

Ideally all four liners should protrude the same amount.

 

Fo8 seals come in two standard thicknesses (I think) 0.015" and 0.018" (Steel & Copper).

 

Insert the liners and see how far they are inset (hopefully 0.010").

Using a suitable Fo8 seal insert this and pop a liner on top - clamp it down on four corners. Measure the protrusion in four places around the top of the liner.

I use a piece of round silver steel and feeler gauges.

 

If the liners al fit perfectly first time then fine - but they won;t.

You may need a thicker/thinner Fo8, you may need to machine the liner to get the correct height.

Some people have resorted to making their own Fo8's from a suitable gauge of copper sheet.

 

You may find a liner that is tilted - higher one side than the other - carefully inspect the seat in the block - it must be scrupulously clean.

 

The usual composite head gasket may well take up some oddity in the measurement but don;t take liberties.

If you get something like .005, .003, 003, 005 from 1 to 4 pot you may come unstuck .005, .003, .005, .005 may be more unstucker.

You'll get the idea.

 

When you are happy with the protrusion coat the Fo8 in Welseal - this stops the water seeping past the seal and also protects the steel Fo8 from the water.

The steel Fo8 will last a good 20 years coated in Welseal.

Pop the liner back on (the same way as it was measured. Clamp it down and measure it again.

 

Once all four are inserted and clamped you need to fit the pistons - THE LINERS MUST BE CLAMPED AT ALL TIMES.

 

Roger

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Re the 'water leak' did you all miss the bit where Don tells us he is running waterless coolant in post 8 ?

Nope I don't believe we did Rob, did you miss the bit where myself posted

 

"Now your car...your choice but many of the Auto performance shops and rolling road operators here won't test cars with the waterless coolant in it. Their view is water is the best heat removal fluid and they'll stand that mixed with glycol (antifreeze which emulsifies nicely with it) but otherwise many think that waterless coolant is used in cars with cooling problems as a way to try and prevent it. They consider the waterless coolant doesn't remove enough heat from the head (it increases the heat the engine will take preventing boiling), but that's not always good for the head and engine. Not criticising , it's your choice. "

 

in post number 12 ? and others noted it and pointed it out also., just saying lol thanks for pointing it out.

 

Mick Richards

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No I didn't miss that Mick - and its good advice but it just seemed to me that many posts were starting from the wrong premise with all the comments about fo8 gaskets etc. Surely people should be trying to help with the 'problem' that does exist - not one that doesn't yet until he changes the coolant?

Edited by RobH
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One of those - ah ha - moments. I have Evans Waterless Coolant as you all know, so as part of the process I had to get a Refractometer to make sure the water content (or pretty much all of it) was removed correctly from the cooling system. Too bad I wiped all that water up on the catch plate of the oil sump when I cleaned it up yesterday. Hoping to squeeze enough drops of what's left on the liners up top to see. If it's positive for water - it's condensation. Unless there's enough oil in the mix to through it off. If not, yep, more things to worry about engine wise.

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Hi Don, thick brown goop up the vent pipe reminds me of my wife's original Ford Fiesta, I scooped a whole cup full of goop out the rocker cover of that car with droplets of clear water spread around. Nothing wrong with engine and caused by lots of short trips. Once cleaned out and used on occasional long runs the gloop never returned.

Looks like your TR needs an all day drive to dry it out, hopefully.

Chris

Thanks, yes, if I can ever get it running straight long enough to take her for a long road trip. :D. I heard Sea-foam in the crank and a fresh oil change thereafter can work wonders on the goop. Figure until I get the wheel studs in and finish that process I'll let everything stay open, breath and maybe dry a bit before sealing it all up.

 

Don

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