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EFI Manifolds


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A clubmate is swapping to electronic fuel injection

and asked me for help with the manifolds.

 

I fitted the TPS sensor and ball bearings on both

sides of that manifold. It needs a longer spindle.

 

The other manifolds got ball bearings on the lever side.

 

Fuel rail is from ROSS machine racing.

Again I used 6 spacers to keep the connectors for brake booster

and manifold pressure at the place where they are.

All additional parts are aluminium or stainless.

 

This is the trial fit if all suits.

 

post-13092-0-52890600-1515089093_thumb.jpg

 

and the TPS....

 

post-13092-0-68342200-1515089122_thumb.jpg

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Intrested to see how this works out as I will have to either completly service and restore the old Lucas PI system or I might go down the EFI route using a 420c ECU I have on a shelf. Presume you will be using a crank tigger wheel and perhaps a CAM sensor (not sure where this would go?) to allow fully sequential injection? Don't know if you have tried this before on a TR6 but one issue I forsee with the TPS is calibrating the signal to represent the acutal throttle positions across all six inlets. Mechanically the linkage will have to be spot on or getting smooth idel/transient throttle progression might be a issue.

 

Out of interest what size/make of injectors?

 

This route might be more cost effective/reliable than keeping the Lucas system, well at least to me.

 

Best of luck with it.

 

Andy

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Hi Andreas.

That looks superb, is his engine standard ? I'm sure he will love it. I personally think more and more people will turn to EFI.

Cheers Mark.

 

The engine is a close to stock CP.

The PI was optimized with using a wideband and the last months

the ignition was already done by MegaSquirt.

Head is a little bit grinded out, valve seats recut and a

280 degree Bastuck cam was fitted, a little bit more than the CP.

I am interested what the EFI can do here.

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Intrested to see how this works out as I will have to either completly service and restore the old Lucas PI system or I might go down the EFI route using a 420c ECU I have on a shelf. Presume you will be using a crank tigger wheel and perhaps a CAM sensor (not sure where this would go?) to allow fully sequential injection? Don't know if you have tried this before on a TR6 but one issue I forsee with the TPS is calibrating the signal to represent the acutal throttle positions across all six inlets. Mechanically the linkage will have to be spot on or getting smooth idel/transient throttle progression might be a issue.

 

Friend of mine refurbished the PI with the help of Neil Ferguson.

He was very happy with what he got. We did a little optimizing

with the wideband and now everything seems to be okay.

 

A 36-1 trigger wheel is fitted, same like Ford EDIS uses.

Ignition is done by single coil and distributor.

So there is no sequential injection.

Not needed in my opinion because under full load/high revs

the electrical injectors are nearly permanently open over the whole time.

 

Out of interest what size/make of injectors?

Injectors are Opel Omega V6 2500.

 

This route might be more cost effective/reliable than keeping the Lucas system, well at least to me.

It is about 1500 Euros if all individual manufacturing is done at home.

Only fuel injection and no wideband sensor and MegaSquirt1 starts from 500 Euro.

 

Best of luck with it.

I will only help if something went wrong.

My TR6 is on EFI since years, its just if

clubmates see that car and how sweet and powerfull it performs

those who are interested in fiddeling by themselves have the idea

to do the same.

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Fuel rail is from ROSS machine racing.

Again I used 6 spacers to keep the connectors for brake booster

 

Hi Andreas,

 

Does the fuel rail come, ready to use or do you have to do some additional machining? I couldn't find Triumph TR6 in their product catalogue. What did you use for the spacers?

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Good Morning,

the fuel rail comes sold by the foot.

You have to cut them to length and they offer a special stepped driller

to make the necessary hole to suit the injector. Injectors are

mostly the same size. Front and rear end accept thread cutter for DASH6.

 

You can go two ways:

1.) You close the holes on top of the manifolds for the brake booster.

I grinded them a little bit down on the milling machine. Than you drill the

holes directly into the rail with the stepped driller. That is the version

Ross made its rail for. There is enough material to fit. I took the manifold

pressure from the air rail opposite to the air valve with a 16mm banyo.

 

2.) You make distance peaces and keep the booster take off like it is.

For that I took a EN7075 alminium with six 19mm surfaces like a nut.

I left that on top for the wrench and cutted it down in the lathe.

On top is M12 thread to fit into the rail, bottom gets the hole with the

mentioned stepped driller.

 

The main difficulty sits in the TPS sensor, not here.

The sensor needs a spindle fully free of play that is longer than original.

If that is not perfect the acceleration enrichment will clog in during normal drive

causing hickups or if set less sensitive the hickups come when accelerating.

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Thanks Andreas,

 

I guessed that would be the case. Unfortunately, I don't have the skill or equipment to risk doing that myself without the concern that I will make a mistake. It is a shame that the TR6 is not common enough for someone to make stock to buy 'ready to fit'.

 

I think when I am ready to take the plunge, I will cut up some of my SAAB fuel rail stock to the correct spacing and then weld up the pieces or sleeve and braze.

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When its the time feel free to contact me

if you need some details.

Many here go the MegaSquirt route.

Might be the easiest way should questions pop up

(and they will :-) )

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Hi Ragtag.

Might be worth contacting Emerald, they have supplied several kits for tr6's mine included. Although it's not a " bolt on kit " it's as close as you're going to get.

Good luck Mark.

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I have fitted aftermarket EFI to my car, admittedly not a TR, consisting of GSXR750 throttle bodies on a home made manifold all controlled by Megasquirt MS2, recently upgraded from MS1.

I have run it on Speed Density algorithm ie. MAP based, and also on AlphaN, which is TPS based.

Certain characteristics of bike TBs give rise to problems on SD, particularly the substantial loss of vacuum at even small throttle openings.

AlphaN fares better most of the time but does not give as accurate measure of load. It does work better at high loads where the MAP signal often shows little variation.

I suspect, however, that a TR6 using modified Lucas bodies would run fine on Speed Density since that is how the Lucas system runs, ie. manifold depression control.

If so that could negate the need for a throttle position sensor. Acceleration enrichment can be triggered from the MAP signal too.

At least it can on Megasquirt, I'm not sure about others.

 

As regards running "sequential" it can have benefits, if small, at low loads and idle. My car runs fully sequential on ignition using "coil on plug" units and semi-sequential on fueling. I have a 24-1 wheel running at cam speed. The ecu has four ignition drivers and two for fuel, each one of the latter firing two injectors. Each pair of injectors is always associated to the same cylinders and in sync with the overall cycle.

Without a cam signal the ecu doesn't know which turn of the crank it is on, everything could be 360 degrees out. This is the genesis of the "wasted spark" ignition system. It doesn't care! A "batch" or "bank" fired fuel system doesn't care either and to be fair the vast majority of injection systems have run perfectly happily like this for decades.

Sequential injection allows for timing of the pulse. As stated in a previous post this has little or no effect at high loads but can give a more stable and hence more efficient idle. I can confirm this from my own testing.

Sequential could be achieved on a TR by using a distributor based signal as well as the 36-1 on the crank. It's not strictly necessary though.

 

Since my upgrade to MS2 I am now running on ITB mode. This uses SD at low loads then seamlessly blends into AlphaN as load increases, thereby utilising the strengths of both algorithms. Some other ecus achieve a similar effect by blending two tables. Megasquirt has the advantage of doing it on one table which makes it easier to tune.

MS2 also features Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment or EAE, an advanced "wall wetting" compensation algorithm found on almost all OEM ecus.

 

One "tip" I will pass on concerns throttle progression. Users of bike tbs often complain about the on/off nature of the throttle and its lack of modulation. The root cause is often the tiny cable quadrant. I made a larger one and offset it from the spindle centreline to give a "rising rate" effect. The centre of rotation in the pic below is in the middle of the four little screws. The change of angle of the cable is allowed for by the little rose joint.

 

35670844026_f1e174647e_k.jpg

 

 

 

39516133991_d595e2ce88_k.jpg

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Hi Nick. I'm on MS2/Extra 3.4.0

There's a checkbox on the Engine and Sequential settings page.

I'm running 4 squirts alternating which means one squirt per engine rev per injector pair. So the calculated millisecond pulse is delivered in two equal shots. Full sequential would require four injector drive circuits, I only have two.

The Lucas system is, of course, fully sequential. It is timed to deliver fuel into an open inlet valve. This flies in the face of popular wisdom which would have the fuel injected onto a closed valve. This aids atomisation apparently.

My own experimentation would agree with Lucas.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Spyder Dryver,

 

i read this thread only now, but I'm at the verge of switching my MS2/ Extra final release from batch to Semi-sequential injector firing - on my TR6.

 

What engine did you experience this timing to work best?

I'm trying to understand, why the Triumph prefers injection into an open Inlet valve.

 

Unfortunately semi- seq. will always have 1/2 of the fuel injected at the wrong time.

 

With my BiL's stock but blue-printed VW Porsche 914 it made a huge difference when he switched from batch to semi. seq injection. But then this engine is just the opposite of a TR6 engine (Big pistons, big valves).

That was my motivation to alter my MS2 to allow semi-seq inj. on a 6 cyl.

 

Patrick

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  • 7 months later...
On 1/4/2018 at 8:36 PM, TriumphV8 said:

 

The engine is a close to stock CP.

The PI was optimized with using a wideband and the last months

the ignition was already done by MegaSquirt.

Head is a little bit grinded out, valve seats recut and a

280 degree Bastuck cam was fitted, a little bit more than the CP.

I am interested what the EFI can do here.

absolutely gorgeous...   :-)

 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.straightsix.de%2Fdoku.php%3Fid%3Dstart%3Atr6%3Amegasquirt&sandbox=1

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