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Hi Andy,

on their website they say it is high in detergents - is this good, bad or indifferent. Only asking as I don;t know the answer.

 

Price and ZDDP ticks the boxes.

 

Roger

Hi Roger,

Detergents tend to strip the glassy film of polymerised ZDDP that deposits on rubbing surfaces. So the ZDDP level and the type of ZDDP will have been designed to suit that extra detergent action.

cheers,

Peter

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Great to read Peter’s comments on the different way that marketers could promote oil in different ways, I think I understand it...... makes me feel even more comfortable about using Classic Oils 20/50 which is very clear on its label: c.1300 ppm Zinc as ZDDP

 

https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50

Thanks Andy, and that oil is indeed clear, that's how ZDDP concentration should be quantified.

It looks complicated, so maybe sales departments of other genuine companies just left out the "...Zinc as....." bit.

But a rogue could leave out most of the ZDDP and the label would still be correct !

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Easy for me Matt as I'm an Elf retailer. Any local garage retailing Elf products should be able to source it for you. If not PM me and I can send some through.

 

I also have access to filters, plugs etc so thinking seriously of listing this specialty stuff through my business on Trademe in the not to distant future. Just a bit too busy at the moment.

 

Cheers

 

Sweet, thanks! I'll PM you if/when.

And let me know if I need to check out Trade Me

 

MT

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Thanks Andy, and that oil is indeed clear, that's how ZDDP concentration should be quantified.

It looks complicated, so maybe sales departments of other genuine companies just left out the "...Zinc as....." bit.

But a rogue could leave out most of the ZDDP and the label would still be correct !

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

 

Hopefully you can decipher this response for me?

 

After the initial response that left me none the wiser " The level of Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates in Vertex Retro 20W50 is 1250 ppm.

We do have one product with higher ZDDP levels and that is the Vertex Racing ZP 25W50 at 1950 ppm."

 

I then asked "To clarify, is that 1250 ppm zinc as ZDDP?"

 

To which the technical person responded "Correct the 1250 parts per million is ZDDP (Aka Zinc / ZP or Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates)"

 

I'm still confused :unsure::unsure:

 

Gavin

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Hi Peter,

 

Hopefully you can decipher this response for me?

 

After the initial response that left me none the wiser " The level of Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates in Vertex Retro 20W50 is 1250 ppm.

We do have one product with higher ZDDP levels and that is the Vertex Racing ZP 25W50 at 1950 ppm."

 

I then asked "To clarify, is that 1250 ppm zinc as ZDDP?"

 

To which the technical person responded "Correct the 1250 parts per million is ZDDP (Aka Zinc / ZP or Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates)"

 

I'm still confused :unsure::unsure:

 

Gavin

Gavin,

You are right. They have not answered the question. Those replies both quote the concentration of ZDDP and could mean the Zn level is very low, which is not what we want. A chemist would have spotted what you were getting at - the perrson on the phone may not be one.

Three new tacks to try:

1. ask them what the assayed concentration of Zn (or phosphorus) is, without mentioning ZDDP at all.

Or

2. ask them to tell you the concentration of Zn in molar units, thus: " Can you tell me the molar concentration of zinc" Or ask for molar ZDDP.

Or

3. tell them a rival oil supplier describes the ZDDP in a different way: Andy's post #22. Why not Elf, and what difference does it make ( we know the answser but let them sweat !)

 

Failing that you could cut and paste that post where I raised the issue and send it it to them. A chemist will instantly see the problem.

 

Cheers

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Interesting... neither Gulf Classic nor Castrol Classic give any data in their literature about ZDDP. Foolishly, I bought 5litres of Gulf Classic 20W50 last month without inspecting the tin properly.

 

Gulf do not provide a figure on their website. Not do they offer a data sheet for this particular oil.

 

Castrol offers a data sheet, but there is no mention of the ZDDP content. It seems that both companies may be marketing their oils on the basis of reduced detergents and a nefarious reference to 'anti-wear additives' qualifying them as 'classic' oils.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

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Interesting... neither Gulf Classic nor Castrol Classic give any data in their literature about ZDDP. Foolishly, I bought 5litres of Gulf Classic 20W50 last month without inspecting the tin properly.

 

Gulf do not provide a figure on their website. Not do they offer a data sheet for this particular oil.

 

Castrol offers a data sheet, but there is no mention of the ZDDP content. It seems that both companies may be marketing their oils on the basis of reduced detergents and a nefarious reference to 'anti-wear additives' qualifying them as 'classic' oils.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Paul,

So years of build up of glassy polymerised ZDDP that has been protecting our flat tappets and piston rings is removed and replaced with an unknown anti-wear additive. Has the transition from ZDDP to that additive been rigorously tested on our engines,a tiny minority for a global business, I doubt it.

If the data sheet mentions boron or molybdenum content that may well be the antiwear component.

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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I think an article in TRA is called for. I'm happy ot write about the importnat difference between "ZDDP ppm" and "Zn as ZDDP", and what to look for on the tin.

But the job of chasing up unclear oil specs, as Gavin is doing with Elf in NZ( above) would need a group effort to resolve the issue for every oil.I'd not do that alone..

So I suggest TRers could volunteer their favourite classic oil on here and post a photo of the label.

The article will clearly state I have ignored all oils that do not stipulate "Zn ppm as ZDDP"

Supppliers of Oils that are advertised in TRA can be asked resolve the issue, along the lines of the questions I suggest Gavin ask in #31.

 

Peter

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Peter,

 

The Comma Classic Oil datasheet says Zinc 0.08% and Phosphorous 0.07%. How does this translate to ppm?

 

Cheers Darren

Darren,

PPM is 'parts per million'

And percent is 'parts per hundred'.

So multiply % by 1000000/100 , which is 10,000, and you get ppm

 

Using that conversion we see Comma Classic has Zn=800ppm and P=700ppm

 

The % of Zn and P are similar so we can reasonably expect they are contributed by ZDDP and not by other components.

The ideal level is reckond to be around 1100 to 1400 ppm Zn

So Comma is on the low side, I dont know if that really matters.

 

Comma's description does not definitively relate the Zn and P levels to ZDDP. We have had to assume that.That uncertainty would have been eliminated if thay had said:

" ZDDP content, expressed as Zn = 0.08%"

 

Peter

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Peter

Can you please explain to me then,rebuilt the 6 pot in one of my cars years ago it has now done 30k+ on Halfords classic and only that changed every year and I have never had to adjust a tappet.

+1

 

Cheers

 

Mike B)

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Darren,

PPM is 'parts per million'

And percent is 'parts per hundred'.

So multiply % by 1000000/100 , which is 10,000, and you get ppm

 

Using that conversion we see Comma Classic has Zn=800ppm and P=700ppm

 

The % of Zn and P are similar so we can reasonably expect they are contributed by ZDDP and not by other components.

The ideal level is reckond to be around 1100 to 1400 ppm Zn

So Comma is on the low side, I dont know if that really matters.

 

Comma's description does not definitively relate the Zn and P levels to ZDDP. We have had to assume that.That uncertainty would have been eliminated if thay had said:

" ZDDP content, expressed as Zn = 0.08%"

 

Peter

 

OK thanks Peter.

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+1

 

Cheers

 

Mike B)

 

Stick with what you first put in the engine after the rebuild, and carefully ran in the cam and tappets.

Not a good idea to swap to ZDDP as it is working well.

 

Note 'transition' in post 33. Many of us have used ZDDP oils for many ears and that has built up a thou-thick glass-like film on cam, followers and other rubbing surfaces. The film is continuosly repaired with freshly deposited ZDDP. Swopping to non-ZDDP antiscuff means that film will get thinner, and break up. At some stage in the film degradion it will be replaced with whatever agent is in the halfords oil. That transition may well not have been tested. Its that change that is the risk.

 

ZDDP has been around for many decades and our TR engines were designed with that knowledge to hand, and tested on ZDDP oils. Lets hope Castrol/Halfords did the same testing , but was it just lab tests or on running classic engines ?.

.

 

Peter

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Interesting... neither Gulf Classic nor Castrol Classic give any data in their literature about ZDDP. Foolishly, I bought 5litres of Gulf Classic 20W50 last month without inspecting the tin properly.

 

Gulf do not provide a figure on their website. Not do they offer a data sheet for this particular oil.

 

Castrol offers a data sheet, but there is no mention of the ZDDP content. It seems that both companies may be marketing their oils on the basis of reduced detergents and a nefarious reference to 'anti-wear additives' qualifying them as 'classic' oils.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

Castrol technical dept have confirmed to me that they are at around 800 ppm. Gulf claims (on the tin) that it contains "additional zinc anti-wear additives". Both are rated at API SF and so (in my opinion) are better than the Halfords/Comma/Wilkinsons product. I don't think there's anything nefarious. There are better choices out there to my mind but it seems that people have run their cars for many thousands of miles using, for instance, the Halfords product (which is inferior by most objective measures) and things are perfectly okay.

 

Instinctively I feel that 1000 - 1400 ppm is preferable (and more seems like too much to me) but if Castrol or Comma or even Morris (Golden film - 700 ppm) believes their product is suitable for our cars then I'd be fairly happy to go along with that - they all know oil better than anyone here after all.

Edited by MostEasterlySteve
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" Which Oil" by Richard Michell, pub 2011, covers ZDDP, explains the complexities.

He seems not to be concerned at using low Zn oils, unless the engine is modified or highly stressed.

He cites as OK the low-Zn or -P ACEA A and B grades ( NOT C these are cat-compatible and very low in P)

ACEA A and B have had valve train tests, presumably with flat tappets.

 

I am beggining to think that the classic oils labelled, say, " 1250ppm ZDDP" actually are exactly just that, with much lower ppm of Zn and P.

Oils with low Zn or P have had other - new - anti-wear and anti-oxidant additives to compensate for the much lower ZDDP.

Some of us may have been running on that, and have unknowingly switched from high Zn or P and had no issues.

 

Overall it looks like the engines that are need high-Zn or P oils are the highly stressed ones.

Is your TR highly stressed? How does it stresses compare with the 'classic' engines the oil company has tested?

 

Peter

Edited by Peter Cobbold
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Castrol technical dept have confirmed to me that they are at around 800 ppm. Gulf claims (on the tin) that it contains "additional zinc anti-wear additives". Both are rated at API SF and so (in my opinion) are better than the Halfords/Comma/Wilkinsons product. I don't think there's anything nefarious. There are better choices out there to my mind but it seems that people have run their cars for many thousands of miles using, for instance, the Halfords product (which is inferior by most objective measures) and things are perfectly okay.

 

Instinctively I feel that 1000 - 1400 ppm is preferable (and more seems like too much to me) but if Castrol or Comma or even Morris (Golden film - 700 ppm) believes their product is suitable for our cars then I'd be fairly happy to go along with that - they all know oil better than anyone here after all.

Michell says avoid the later APIs ( API SM, SN ). Then says the ACEA testing includes valve trains that API does not embrace.

I agree with your instincts ( for Zn or P at 1000 to 1400ppm * ): too much depends upon whether Comma or Morris see TR is a stressed classic engine, or not.

Peter

 

(* not ZDDP ppm)

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Michell says avoid the later APIs ( API SM, SN ). Then says the ACEA testing includes valve trains that API does not embrace.

I agree with your instincts ( for Zn or P at 1000 to 1400ppm * ): too much depends upon whether Comma or Morris see TR is a stressed classic engine, or not.

Peter

 

(* not ZDDP ppm)

 

Yes, fully agree about the most advanced additive packages and API ratings. API SJ is as recent as we should be going with 'classic' engines.

 

Duckhams Q was API SF for its final few years as a conventional, mainstream oil (and funnily enough by that time it wasn't green either!). They later relaunched it (as green) with fancy 'heritage' label and still API SF but a much higher price. To my mind API SF is the minimum we should be aiming for.

 

It's all personal opinion I guess. Whilst I have researched the whole topic fairly exhaustively I don't think my interpretations are any more valid than anyone else's but PERSONALLY I wouldn't give the Halfords/Comma/Wilkinsons stuff (which is all exactly the same) house room when you can get something better for the same, or in some cases, less money. And if people insist on the Halfords stuff they should get it from Wilkinsons as it's usually at least a fiver cheaper (and the can is nicer)! The other one which I see is starting to appear in independent accessory shops is Shell Classic 20W/50...usually seems to be about 20 quid and is API SF. They don't specify the Zinc level but claim suitable anti-wear additives for classic engines (nice can too!).

 

The quality of the base oil is important but far more so is the overall additive package (which is why I say aim for API SF, SG, SH or SJ). I suspect the Zinc issue might not be so critical although for my peace of mind I'd rather it was 1000 ppm +.

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Interesting topic, and Peter, thanks for the deep insight.

I do not want to confuse things and fully agree with the need for oil with the proper anti wear additives, but could it be that some tappet/cam failures are primarily a result of "uprated vave springs", sharp cam profiles and poor tappets?

I know some more knowledgable people than me on this forum prefer to use the "softer" Tr5/early 6 double springs.

If allowable stresses are exceeded between tappet and cam, there is little the oil can do.

Regards,

Waldi

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Interesting topic, and Peter, thanks for the deep insight.

I do not want to confuse things and fully agree with the need for oil with the proper anti wear additives, but could it be that some tappet/cam failures are primarily a result of "uprated vave springs", sharp cam profiles and poor tappets?

I know some more knowledgable people than me on this forum prefer to use the "softer" Tr5/early 6 double springs.

If allowable stresses are exceeded between tappet and cam, there is little the oil can do.

Regards,

Waldi

Hi Waldi,

One of the advantages of the supercharger is I don't need to uprate the cam, tappets or max rpm, standard is fine.Hence I'm not the best person to ask. But I am sure you are right on focusing on that area for determining the correct oil.

cheers

Peter

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Peter

Can you please explain to me then,rebuilt the 6 pot in one of my cars years ago it has now done 30k+ on Halfords classic and only that changed every year and I have never had to adjust a tappet.

Hi Neil,

could it be down to the way the car is driven assuming you are not thrashing it up and down all the local roads.

 

Roger

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Hi Neil,

could it be down to the way the car is driven assuming you are not thrashing it up and down all the local roads.

 

Roger

Roger

 

I have thrashed mine down to the South of France four times so that's a minimum of 9,000 miles at least. I always drive it hard wherever I am. :P

 

Cheers

 

Mike. B)

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