TR4A engine oil usage

[Paul J]

Well thats good news Roger and Barry, perhaps the PCV mechanism was designed and sponsored by the oil companies.

Like you once removing the valve there was an instant reduction in oil consumption, having done some 500 miles since there is no Noticeable difference to the level on the dipstick. Nothing in the catch tank other than a little condensate related gunge.

Paul

[graeme]

Ok, I will add my experience here. Hope it contributes.

 

Engine spec:

89mm piston/liners

Newman PH1 cam

head modified as per David Vizard with a CR of 10.3

Balanced bottom end and lightened flywheel.

No PCV

Rocker and crank case vented into a Racetoration FG catch tank.

 

My last longish trip was around 800 miles down to Portland International Raceway.

 

The trip down was a fairly high speed run, 80-85 MPH on the highway. On arrival the oil level was around the min mark (I usually run around the mid mark on the dip stick)

The level was restored to the mid mark, and the return trip was more leisurely keeping revs below 3000 RPM and used only a negligible amount of oil.

 

So the problem for me only seems to be above 3000RPM.

 

Cheers

Graeme

[ianc]

Graeme - if, prior to your long run to Portland, you had been making short trips, there might have been a fair quantity of water (condensed water vapour) in the sump. A good, long thrash would have kept the temperature in the sump high and the water would have been driven out (evaporated) - that, combined with oil consumption, could have accounted for the drop in level.

Ian Cornish

[BarryG]

Hi All

 

Been following this with great interest.

 

I am probably getting on for halving my oil consumption since ditching the PCV valve. I now vent the rocker box cover to the back of the air filters.

 

I am currently running a mechanical fuel pump but believe that there is probably more I could do to improve things.

 

I have been thinking of switching to an electric fuel pump then using a plate with vent to take excess pressure to a oil catch tank.

 

A pump that comes highly recommended is

http://www.webcon.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=48

it seems to have good reviews and does not run at too high a pressure, apparently a regulator is not required. Has anyone got any experience with this make of pump?

 

Also reading back through this long thread I have just read Rogers comment about venting from this position is a no no as it could suck the engine dry. Roger any chance you could elaborate on this. Was this in case a pipe was simply sent to below the chassis rail causing suction or some other reason?

 

This afternoon I thought I would try just as an experiment running the engine on the drive and take out the dip stick, I was surprised to see oil splashing out and when I put my thumb over the hole could feel a slight pressure and this was at tickover! (Just for the records, plugs are clean and no smoke out the back). My wife was also surprised when I showed her and revved up to about 1500 rpm, unfortunately she was right in the firing line and wearing a white shirt ????

 

To me fitting an oil catch tank would reduce the pressure in the sump. So are many running an oil catch tank and what are the improvements or otherwise experienced?

 

Again sorry this is a bit long.

 

Barry

[Motorsport Mickey]

Barry,

 

Under Forum button (it then checks them all) use the Search Box (Top tip in any week). 102 Threads running of which a good many will give you the low down on catch tanks, fitting of them, and the results.

 

Mick Richards

[RogerH]

Hi Barry,

th epossible probem using the pump orifice as a crankcase vent is that it has direct access to the internals where the oil is thrashing around.

So the vent may take more than just aor pressure.

The TR4 vent pipe out let has a labyrinth out let so oil mist drains back into the sump - or so it should do.

 

My step in solving the oil usage was to remove the PCV and fit a rubber pipe to a small catch tank.

The first thing that I noticed was that there was very little air actually coming out of the pipe.

After 4 months or more there is very little oil in the catch tank - not visible on the clear pipe.

 

This simple pipe has halved the oil usage. from 300miles/Ltr to apprx 600+ miles/Ltr - still not overly special.

 

Today I sort a couple of external leaks - almost nothing really but the odd teaspoon will eventually add up.

 

I plan to fit the TR4 snorkel sometime. and the third step maybe to fit valve stem seals on the inlets.

 

Roger

[peter clarke]

Rimmers stock a NewZealand made ECCO pump. I have used for them over 15 years on different cars with no issues. You can hear the pump clicking when you turn on ignition but noise stops as soon as fuel bowls are full provided you have no fuel leaks or flooding. Car then starts first go with no continuous cranking . Cannot hear pump when engine ticking over. Pump is ok for ethanol fuel mixes.

[peter clarke]

Forgot to add that i have a tr3a did 6000 klms on a trip from Brisbane to Tasmania return. The engine crankcase vent is standard as is the rocker cover and the rear crankshaft seal. The 20/50 oil was at the top mark of the dipstick when i left, "no top ups" and had only dropped 4mm by end of trip.

Used to have a 4a and dumped the PCV and fitted crankcase vent as per 3a. From memory removed fuel pump and spiked the crankcase blank and removed it with engine in no problem. Worst case scenario would be remove sump to retrieve blank if it went in instead of coming out.

[peejay4A]

IIRC the cavity behind the 4A vent blank is labyrinthine so it will not fall into the sump. If it did go in I imagine it would be a hell of a job to retrieve it. Well done on getting yours out in situ.

[BarryG]

My mission continues. . . .

 

Continuing on from previous inputs, By venting my rocker cover to the carb intakes my oil consumption is about 850 miles

to a litre, previously it was 2 litres in 1250 miles, so big improvement.

 

As a recap I have ditched the PCV valve, but feel a lot more could be done.

 

I have bought a vent pipe, a core plug remover and a right angled hex drill driver.

 

Yesterday I shortened one of my drill bits and experimented drilling through a core plug from a Frogeye Sprite, I placed a

white card underneath to check for swarf and placed grease on the drill bit, the card was clean - I think the trick is to let the drill bit cool off prior to putting the grease on and finally piercing the plug.

 

So today I thought I would go for it. I put the car up on the stands and the access from underneath is far better than down from the top. Then I offered up the pipe with the plug to find that the pipe is too close to the base of the oil filer. I must point out that I have an oil cooler fitted with a filter adapter (fitted by the previous owner) and it is this adaptor that is extending the filter downwards. So tools downed for today to get advice from more knowledgeable people than I.

 

1. Do I abandon and use a electric pump and vent from the manual fuel pump orifice? I take on board Rogers earlier comments about this not being a good route to take and the preference being to vent as per the TR4.

 

2. Is a oil cooler really necessary? I don't do track days, drive sensibily and have an electric fan fitted. Without this adaptor there would be room to change the filter with the vent pipe in place.

 

3. Do I conceed with the general opinion that it is not worth running the car with oil up to the MAX mark, as it will only blow it out anyway, may as well run the car at about half full?

 

I have attached a few photos.

 

Thanks for bearing with me.

 

Barry

 

 

 

[RogerH]

Hi Barry,

the cooler is not necessary for normal (non-track) running.

 

Roger

[ChrisR-4A]

Well done Barry I like the extractor. I run mine 1/4 ins below top mark which is about 3/4 full and top up when it's down to 1/2.

Chris

Edited May 27, 2018 by potts4a

[BarryG]

Thanks Roger. I always thought that the oil cooler probably wasn't doing much of a job as it had been fitted behind the front valence so zero air flow.

Chris the extractor I bought from fleabay, came from the US. So how many miles do you get between 3/4 down and 1/2 way down on the dip stick?

Barry

[RogerH]

Hi Barry,

that extractor looks like it could be easily knocked up. in a couple of hours at the forge. - Hmmmmm

 

Roger

[BarryG]

Hi Roger

 

If you have access to a forge great, if you need any close ups just let me know . . .

Failing that have a squiz here

http://r.ebay.com/pI1KVU

Not sure how succesfull it will be, but it certainly looks good and strong, it needs a 9/32" pilot hole.

Barry

[mike3md]

Roger,

 

I would have thought a suitably sized coach screw would be a good starting point, plus a piece of plate.

 

No need to build that forge!

 

 

 

Mike

[ChrisR-4A]

Thanks Roger. I always thought that the oil cooler probably wasn't doing much of a job as it had been fitted behind the front valence so zero air flow.

Chris the extractor I bought from fleabay, came from the US. So how many miles do you get between 3/4 down and 1/2 way down on the dip stick?

Barry

Never measured that exactly but on trip to France last year used nearly a pint in just over 1400 miles. Mostly driving under 3000 rpm.

Coming up to 20000 miles since engine rebuild.

 

Chris

[BarryG]

Thanks Chris, that's very good oil consumption. That's the sort of consumption I would like to try and aim for.

 

Today I decided to go for it and take the crankcase breather plug out as I think that is where my main problem lies, excess crankcase pressure. I am at the point where the core plug extractor is partly screwed into the plug. That has taken all day

 

My question now is, does anyone know how wide the oil way is directly behind the core plug?, as I don't want to go in too deep with extractor.

 

See what tomorrow brings.

 

Barry

[stuart]

Thanks Chris, that's very good oil consumption. That's the sort of consumption I would like to try and aim for.

 

Today I decided to go for it and take the crankcase breather plug out as I think that is where my main problem lies, excess crankcase pressure. I am at the point where the core plug extractor is partly screwed into the plug. That has taken all day

 

My question now is, does anyone know how wide the oil way is directly behind the core plug?, as I don't want to go in too deep with extractor.

 

See what tomorrow brings.

 

Barry

You only need to go in the depth of the core plug (1/8" max) with the extractor, there is about an inch or so in behind it where it then turns down towards the sump.

Stuart.

[BarryG]

Thanks Stuart

 

Finally got the plug out about half hour ago, it was a great feeling. Just sorting out pipework and routing. Will report back later today.

 

I have the bit between my teeth.

 

Barry

[BarryG]

Finally all finished, it would be an understatement to say that it has been a bit of a mission.

 

So all went well except for the following:-

 

The right angle drill bit I really did not expect to last that long, the reason I got this particular one was that it had the smallest profile.

Costing a mere £5 odd from Fleabay (inc postage), it lasted till I had a hole drilled - see photo. At one point towards the end the drill bit bit extra

hard and totally wrecked it - fit for the bin now.

 

The second problem was that the Plug Extractor straddle had nothing to rest on squarely. The face of the block might be flat but around the core plug hole it has a raised section. I got a short piece of exhaust pipe and modified it as per the photo. This meant that the straddle of the extractor had something square and firm to push against.

 

I was concerned about swarf entering the chamber, I used liberal amounts of grease on the shortened drill bit towards the point of penetration.

 

When the plug finally came out I was suprised that the plug was about 20mm deep but the channel it was in was getting on for 40mm so quite a safety margin, I was able to very carefully clean the core plug hole, without anything falling in.

 

I then modified the original pipe (again bought on Fleabay) so it was just a right angle, jubilee clipped to a 30mm diameter rubber pipe, up the side of the engine to an oil catch tank behind the wheel arch. Depending on how things go I may move the catch tank position to next to the battery and get a bigger/better catch tank.

 

Yesterday I put a litre of oil in when it was 1/2 way on dip stick, I then did a 50 mile drive including motorway driving, when I checked the oil tonight it is about 1/8" down from full.

 

Too soon to say I know but I am quietly optimistic, will see what the consumption is like after a week or two.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and guidance.

 

Barry

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pmhowe]

It’s always embarrassing to be late to the party. I came upon your thread while searching for the solution to a different problem. However, perhaps this post will make it easier for someone faced with the same problem. The original post is on the Morgan forum MOG –group entitled “Extraction of breather plug with engine in car”. It says the same as below, but includes a couple of pictures.

 

“In anticipation of installation of a breather pipe on my TR4A engine, I set about removing the breather plug on the left side of the engine, behind and below the fuel pump. Doing this with the engine in the car is reputed to be a fiddly job. I was dreading the idea of drilling through the plug or attempting to puncture it with a screwdriver.

 

"I was lucky enough to find a post on the British Car Forum by TuffTR250, who used a homemade puller composed of a 1” bolt, a nut, a washer, and a section of pipe. He adapted the approach from a post by Darrell Walker. I used the same idea and it worked like a charm. I used a pair of ViceGrips to turn bolt and nut. The whole process took less than fifteen minutes. It would have been easier and faster if my bolt were threaded all the way, as then bolt and nut would have been clear of the rear engine casting and I would have had more room to maneuver the ViceGrips.”

 

Hope his helps someone in the future.

 

Phil

[RogerH]

Hi Folks,

I'm back on the oil leak/usage script again.

As You may know I removed the PCV as it was hoovering oil out of the engine.

This worked in two ways

1) - my oil consumption has improved quite a lot.

2) - pinking in the engine has virtually disappeared.

 

But: I still have oil leaks.

I have stopped all but at the rear crank journal. It has a Chris Marx seal and I'm sure it is doing its job but the crankcase pressure must be too high for it.

So yesterday I decided to remove the core plug just below the fuel pump (where the TR4 breather pipe fits).

First problem - how do you remove the core plug.

I have a right angle windy drill but is a little on the big side. So I made an Ali plug that fitted inside the hollow of the core plug.

This Ali plug had a guide hole in it that was at a slight angle to allow the drill access due to restricted space.

The out let of the plug coincided with the centre of the core plug.

 

So I now have an 1/8" hole in the middle. Into this I screwed a #10 wood screw - with a suitable standoff -

I screwed away and the screw came out with its threads nadgered

 

So open the holes and screw in a #12 wood screw - same again

 

Off to Wickes and I come back with some serious wood screws with hex heads. The threads survive but the hole in the core plug is now getting bigger.

 

I contacted Barry who had success with a fancy extractor. He read the instructions over the phone - start with a 9/32" hole.

Ooops!! I'm already up to 10mm so that avenue failed before it started.

 

Off to Wickes and get a selection of Rawl bolts and a thing called a sleeve nut - this looks like a very slim Rawl bolt.

 

So in with the sleeve nut. The sleeve nut unwinds it self and the core plug stays put

The problem with the sleeve nut is that the sleeve is very thin ( 0.020") - so I make a new sleeve for it from 0.040" steel.

This is also a failure. as the hole in the core plug is still getting bigger.

 

Next attack involves a 6mm Rawl plug. This requires a 14mm hole in the core plug. Using a neat cone cutter I open up the hole and fiddle the Rawl Bolt in.

Unwinding felt good but then it went limp. Thankfully this was due to the core plug coming out.

 

What a palaver. At least it is now out and the TR4 breather pipe is in place.

 

One of the problems drilling out the core plug is getting swarf etc into the engine.

However I reasoned that any swarf going through the small hole in the core plug will not go too far

and there is a flat surface just inside the engine beyond the plug.

A thorough sweep with a magnet collected a good amount.

 

Roger

 

Stand off & 6mm Rawl bolt

A selection of extractors that failed.

[

Swarf from just inside the core plug

Edited July 24, 2018 by RogerH

[ChrisR-4A]

Hi Roger, I like the Rawl plug logic, I used a small chisel with the end ground like a fish hook, bashed it through a 1\4" hole turned 90 deg and levered out with a mole grip.

More brute force than your method but same result.

 

 

Chris

[RogerH]

Hi Chris,

not sure if I could have done that with the engine insitu.

 

Roger