ex-works tr4's

[WildRover]

It all rather smacks of losing the plot, at least to my way of thinking.

 

Cheers,

 

Alec

 

Can I loose the plot then?

 

Most build replicas for the enjoyment of driving and showing the car, rather than competinig would be my guess.

 

But an OOM, TUD, XJO, KDU, OOE or an SJW would be my real choice.

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Alec

 

Another interesting line - I agree with you. I for one have made a real attempt not to build and run a clone, because frankly you can do a better job with modern mechanicals and wiring particularly. But there is a certain something about a 'lookalike' when you cant have the real thing ........ so all the best rally TR4's are surely powder blue !

 

I am looking forward to seeing Jonathan Hancox's car (with the cherished plate 7VC on it) out on the Tour of Cheshire. Jonathan has built a replica of a works car and makes no bones about it - I think he has done a great job and respect him for the effort he has put in ........ and also making it clear that he's not passing it off as one of the 4 'real' works cars. No question ..... '7VC' will be great to see (hopefully in my rear mirror ........ heh heh).

 

Reading back through the early threads on this posting I do think its a real shame that the story of one of the 4 'real' works cars (5VC) is being corrupted by someone who is trying to do the opposite. Worse still, making the assumption that if the corrupted story is told often enough it will become true - really sad. I dont think anyone (least all those who know the true position) are being fooled by this, nor by the comments on the other 3 cars - which I hope lots of you saw last weekend at Stoneleigh. Spotless and entirely original they are not - but they are entirely what they appear to be and of that there is no question and there never has been.

 

There are a lot of wonderful TR's out there being rallied by a number of super people, many of who Ive met and smiled with and all of whom get a real kick out of their TR. I truly hope that none of this nonsense with replica cars clouds the judgement or enjoyment that those people get, myself included. This sort of rubbish is not what these cars or historic rallying are about.

 

Ive always called a spade a spade and will continue to do so, particularly where there is a long trail of evidence from people 'in the know' which is very clear on the subject. An overview of this went in print by Graham Robson in Triumph World a few years ago and I am told there is little to add at this time - but believe me I have spent enough time recently in the search as some of you reading this will know.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[7VC]

Hi everyone,

 

My ears were burning, so I thought I should stick my head over the parapet - hope you lot don't shoot it off!

 

Interesting discussion, and thanks Tony and Mark for your very positive comments about my car - it is a real tribute to the expertise of Robert Ashley and the team at Manvers.

 

I wouldn't dare get involved in talking about what is and what isn't a genuine "works" car! If the atoms in the metal could speak, we'd have the answers...

 

Alec raised an interesting point about replicas though, which I wanted to comment on. (I'm putting my anorak on now...) If you are into historic rallying in any serious way, you have to apply for an MSA Historic Rally Vehicle Identity Form - an 8+ page form which you have to complete with minute details about the car's specification, and photos. To qualify for the right class/period, the only performance modifications you are allowed to make to a bog-standard production car are those which were used in rallying in that period. Some modern safety improvements are allowed, like roll cages, alternators, electric fans, etc. So...if you want to tweak the performance of a historic rally car, in some ways you are forced by the regs to make it a "works" replica! I just happened to like powder blue as well...

 

No, obviously I did want to make it a very good "replica", but my main aim was to build a car which both looks good and is competitive (in the right hands, anyway!). If I was trying to make an exact replica, I wouldn't have fitted a roll cage, or Ridgard seats, or a Halda Twinmaster... Anorak off now!

 

Whatever we drive - genuine works car, bits of a works car put into another car, unashamed replica, unashamed anti-replica, or just standard - doesn't really matter, just as long as no one is passing off a car as something that it isn't. I'm not saying that anyone is knowingly passing anything off (I'm new here!), but we're possibly back to needing to talk to the atoms again.

 

Lost the plot? Probably. Well, I am a rally driver. Great, isn't it!!

 

Cheers all,

 

Jonathan

[chris turner]

I read the article by Graham Robson in Triumph World no 27, I think the 2 letters in issue 28 also need to be read which give 2 different views on 5VC. If we are missing some of the facts then surely someone should explain in detail why the German 5VC is not the real thing. The reply that someone "was there at the time" can be answered by "can you remember what happened in 1964" so this is not sufficient.

BTW 7VC looks great.

[rudi]

Hi Tony (and other unbelievers),

 

I understand that with the relation you have to Revington's VC's you are eager to proof or (let us) believe that they are the only real ones.

But, Have you any hard proof that 5VC is not genuine? Have you seen the car personally, have you examined the car yourself, have you even touched it? Dit you personally spoke to the owner or to the former works drivers?

With all respect Tony, but I believe you first should answer the a.m. questions postively and than make your own judgement. Than show us proof that your judgement is correct.

I get the impression that the fact that 5VC is on the continent and not on it's native island is eating some people's hearts out. Of course we live in a free country and everybody can have his own opinion.

So far the only hard "evidence" I have seen on the forum are the pictures and the comment from the 5VC owner. All the rest is nothing more than blablabla (and envy maybe?). Again, with all respect to everybody's opinion.

 

Rudi

[Guest Robby T.]

Hi all,

 

I 'm from Germany and have seen the german 5VC live. The car does not make the impression of a replica car as all the other cars incl. the engl. VC cars. The only car which shows same as a works car still is 3VC.

I have seen 3VC for some years ago and now last weekend at the show. As I see this car for years ago it was rebuilt and without patina. Now after a short time the engine bay is oiled and the car should make an old used impression. ?

5VC altough restored also had from begin some patina. What does us say?

Than I read that what the owner of 5VC wrote here. He disclosed his story about the car and led us see his homepage. (A wonderful history homepage about wonderful cars).

He had made questions about the other cars. I found none answers here. Only Tonys statement again after some weeks. We all were hopeful that we get answers of the questions about the other cars. Nothing.

Come on Tony, say us why the german car has a genuine commission number plate and the engl. cars does not have.

Who had confirmed that the cars 3VC,4VC,5VC and 6VC are right?

I saw the FIVA card of 5VC. I do not believe that the owner can make it self. Not in Germany!

It will be better when all cars shows they history complete with papers, photos of the restoration or before. Than we know more.

Rudy, you are right. Only blablabla.

 

Regards

 

Robby T.

[chris turner]

Alec, in the article about 4VC in Classic Car magazine it said " Neil Revington carried out a lengthy rebuild on what was little more than a pile of rust. By the time he had restored 4VC to show going standard he had an intimate knowledge of the works TR4s foibles" This must mean that although 4VC is without question real, it must show that a car does not have to have all its original parts to be authentic. I notice 6VC does not have the Vanguard boot lid hinges, so how many other parts arent correct. Why doesnt Tony tell us why the English cars are real and 5VC is not. I personally think they are all great cars and just hope that one day all four can be seen together as the complete works team.

[rudi]

Hi Alec,

Do not misunderstand my reply. In no way I dear to question the "originality" of any of the works cars. Who would I be to do so.

I personally had the privilige to see the VC's at Revington's home farm. Neil personally showed me one of the cars. I have seen them on shows as well I have seen 5VC.

My only statement is that I want to make is that each one of them is not guilty as long as there is no proof of the opposite. And in spite of the insinuations about 5VC and especially its owner, I have seen no proof brought to this forum, as said I have seen only insinuations and that is sad.

I have a great respect for all TR owners who like myself spend a lot of time, effort and money to keep the TR's, being it works, replica's or "simple" standard cars, on the road. I wish everybody would do the same.

Amen,

Rudi

[Guest Robby T.]

Dear Alec,

 

please do not misunderstand my comment if I ask the right status of all the four cars. I think when I read about 4VC which parts all replaced at the time than please it may be the same registration number and the same ownership as Dave it already wrote but it’s still the same car? Surely it is not the genuine car but perhaps an original?

 

Ok, from your view point we also must say if all four cars did have some (without doubts) genuine parts (which and how many parts?) at they restoration and today still have(!) than all cars are original with some genuine parts. All four cars.

 

Or we must say all four cars are replicas with some genuine parts.

 

The discussion here will be very helpful to build an opinion about the cars and what we see as genuine or original.

 

Ok?

 

Regards

 

Robby T.

[jonlar]

It's good to see a couple more like 3, 4 and 6, I just hope one day we may see all 5 together. Other than financial/investment value does it really matter - how many cars of this age are 100% original.............? Where do you draw the line? Well done Jonathan, I think it looks great.

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Rudi / Robby / all

 

I will add to this line once more;

 

3VC, 4VC and 6VC are all out cars with known histories and free for all to see. Come to the TR Register weekend any year and you will see them there im sure again this year. Equally their stories are all well known. To say anything else simply isnt true.

 

In respect of the other car in Germany - it is the responsibility of the owner of this car to agree with the TR Register, nominated officers, specialists and others who know the truth to agree the authenticity of the car - no one else can do this. Is the prepared to do this ? and tell everybody the result ? this is the answer.

 

Otherwise he should stop calling his car 5VC and the argument ends here.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[Guest Robby T.]

Hi Tony,

 

Sorry that I must ask you again: I only have these questions. Please understand me, I am not a fan of the German car owner but the car is very impressive and the owner shows his car in Germany under the bonnet also. I am respectful for his surely very difficult restoration work and I wish I could own this car whether it is real or not. Now to my and sure also of the other enthusiast's questions:

 

1. Who had confirmed 3VC and 6VC and who has enough knowledge about the details of the cars

which can also confirm (or not) the German 5VC? (name or names)

2. Again, why had none of the English cars a genuine commission number plate?

3. Which parts of the English cars are still real genuine?

4. What do you have of evidence that the German car is not real?

5. Have you ever seen 5VC?

 

So come on Tony. Please make answers which we can understand. Not always the same again that the English cars are all well known and about they history it gives no doubts.

 

To this time I have nothing heard from you except these words "the English cars and they history are known in England and without doubts". Who of us has so much knowledge to confirm that?

This is the same as I say the history of the German 5VC is not correct because I am not confirming this. First I must believe what I see with my own eyes!

 

Regards

 

 

Robby T.

[chris turner]

I think 6VC is probably the least original of the English cars as it was badly damaged on more than one occasion and it seems to be common knowqledge that it is not the original car, it certainlty had a change of chassis numbers If I owned the car I would take Tonys approach but how can he say 6VC is real and 5VC not. The cars may be owned by Register members now but there are times when their whereabouts were unknown. I know a lot of members who need convincing that "ours"are right and"theirs" is wrong.

[Guest Robby T.]

Hi Chris,

 

Yesterday I had an extensive call with the owner of the German 5VC. It was a very interesting talk about his car and about the other “works TR4s”.

 

Unfortunately his English language knowledge is very small. This is his reason because he wrote only less about his car or drove with it to England.

 

His own opinion is that his car is not so much genuine that you can say it is a genuine works rally car but it has a lot of genuine parts more than the 6VC or 4VC.

 

He told me that he believed when 4VC and 6VC will have the pretension to be what they seems to be than his car has to have the same pretension as these cars.

 

He also told me that many details which were given by the owners of 6VC and now of a trusty of 3VC about they cars are wrong.

 

He thinks that 5VC is a car which incorporated so many genuine parts that he can call it 5VC without less doubts as 6VC or 4VC.

 

He tells me that he is searching on historical details about his car and found some details of the other two Shell cars which not amused them owners of today.

 

He can not understand that every time will claim that the English cars are without doubts while the German car not. His opinion is that there are massive financial interests behind.

 

His opinion also is that all four cars are replicas which incorporated genuine parts of the works rally TR4s. The great question is how many parts and which parts will need that you can say it is still a genuine or original works car.

 

This also is my opinion and question. The question is how much the owners keep ready to say how many parts are real genuine of them cars. See also my questions to Tony.

 

He thinks the real answer we never get.

 

He also is searching of more history of his car because he know that is not all 100% clear. I will meet him next and see his details and he will show me his documents of his car.

 

Regards

 

Robby T.

[chris turner]

Robby, first of all I believe that 4VC no matter how much it has been changed is still 4VC and always will be, this is because I know the car has a continuous history from the day it left the factory. This cars identity is without question. The other 3 cars are a different matter and their history are sketchy to say the least.

In England if you can prove that a registration mark originally belonged on your car and you get the support of a reputable club you can obtain that registration mark but on a non transferable basis. I wonder if the club concerned would give equal help to the 3 cars(excluding 4VC which has always had its number), I dont think so. It is obvious from all that Ive read and seen that the English cars can skip bits of their history without question whereas the German one cant. Why has Tony made statements about 5VCs authenticity without giving us the facts to prove it. I would like to know who the TR Register nominated officers, specialists and others who know the truth that are mentioned , are they totally neutral, I doubt it, they will have far greater knowledge of 3,4+6. I will be at Malvern again this year as always and will sit down and listen to anyone without a vested interest to see if they can prove what Tony alleges.

[Tr4Tony]

Hi Guys

 

I cant speak for others but originality is all important in the sense of is it actually the car it says it is, not does it have lots of 'period' or 'original' bits on it. I have many works TR4 parts, but I cant put them on my car and call it 5VC because it simply is not that car! never was to start with and nevr will be, despite how nice it would be to have it !

 

The point with all 4 of the works TR4's before they left Triumph was that they were all hard campaigned professional rally cars, bent and repaired over the dozen or so rallies that they competed in - so lots of the individual components changed im sure, long before they reached the US, but basically they had a continous lineage and this was documented. Many of the men that worked on the cars are still with us. The 3 cars that went to the US were fully rebuilt before they went (by the factory), so not as the same as they day they were first screwed together, but hey were still 'original' then were they not ? despite their chassis changes, new bodywork etc. over the years of service.

 

Also, each of the four cars (even then) was different in one way or another, personalised, non important knocks and dents retained, different add on bits, even performance if you believe some - so the collection of bits that comprise each car was different then and is different now. The 3 surviving cars as they are now have all been carefully rebuilt in one way or another, retaining as much of what was there to start with - still original. But when they get bent or broken they will be repaired - and still be the 'original car' - nothing can change that;

 

As to the issues with 5VC - and the answers to your questions Robby (ring me if you want to talk I have sent you my number) - where to start ? A bonnet ? bought from a scrapyard; no more .... and from someone known and reliable who has given a statement to that effect ...... so where did the rest come from ???? seen the pictures ???? come on.

 

The easy answer is for the owner to have the car inspected and authenticated (as ive said before) and in so doing end this sorry state of affairs. Stop the argument and stop calling it 5VC if its not correct - very simple. There is a long list things that will be present, irrespective of parts that the owner has collected and added to make it look like 5VC and these things will be very obvious if the car has the origin that the owner says it has. Club experts and others know all this.

 

Im sure pictures of the car as it was found and before it was touched (as exist with both 3VC and 6VC) would also be very revealing.

 

If the owner of this car is not prepared to have the car inspected and authenticated (warts and all) ....... ask yourself why not ? ........ I dont think you have to be a genius to work that one out.

 

You can be assured that this is not a 'them and us' issue - certainly not on my part (I have many dear friends in Germany, many whom own very nice cars - some of which I wish were mine!), nor do responsible people have any agenda, apart from making sure that the record is kept straight, no matter how many times a story to the contrary is told with the sole purpose of corrupting the truth.

 

This cannot be allowed to happen and no amount of bleating or cheating will change this.

 

Regards

 

Tony

[chris turner]

Just another opinion by Anders Ditlev Clausager, Archivist British Motor Heritage Trust Gayden England.

[Guest Robby T.]

Hi All,

 

I have trying to be neutral, I hope. It’s difficult but still possible. This also is the reason because I’m not writing an email or ring you personally, Tony.

 

Whether the owner of the 5VC got the bonnet or more parts of them from a scrapyard do not very important as he had the car before and he has these genuine parts which seems the other cars not to have. He told me about the luck to get the bonnet later. This was one of the first what he told me in this call. I am also sure that you can find still other stuff of the cars in the US.

 

I don’t know why the English cars do not have a genuine commission number plate.

In England it seems not to be important enough, to own a right title or a commission number plate of such important cars.

 

But for me it is already very important. If I read the postings of Tony it seems not to be important.

This seems to be the reason because we get no answer about the wrong commission number plates of the English cars.

Tony makes very difficult to be neutral.

 

What I have seen of 3VC and 6VC them were both LHD bodies and never before RHD bodies as they came back to England.

The chassis of 6VC were irreparable damaged to the end of the Shell 4000. The Koni dampers from which Neil had wrote in an article could never be genuine. The outer panels of 6VC were from steel except the boot lid. But the long hinges of the other works cars were missing as the genuine pressed rear deck. Today the car has the long hinges now.

The engine as the gearbox and the most other stuff of the car were not genuine.

6VC stand always under a great doubt to be a right ex. works TR4.

 

I say once more: I have some difficult to accept such a car as a genuine or original car if so many parts are incorrect or missing. How many parts from these were fitted in England after the car came back?

It will not be rich to have an alleged continue history about a car if 80% of the car is incorrect and the 20% remains are in doubt whether they come from the same car.

A history can be complete over years as the history of ownership of 4VC. A history also can be in the fog.

 

Tony you wrote me I should ask Graham Robson or Neil Revington about the English cars or the German car. Please who had confirmed that 6VC or 3VC are to be what they are now?

 

Please say not Neil or Graham himself!

 

5VC is not a complete genuine car. I am convinced. The owner of the car told me the chassis frame is from another car. I have no problems with that. Had 5VC as the other cars more than one chassis frame in them rally career.

 

Than there is the body which should be genuine, later it should be a fake as the complete car. I don’t know whereof the owner should have the extensive knowledge about the many different works details to modify these details himself. I do not believe it.

 

Okay, we would assume also the body of 5VC is not genuine, perhaps exchange in the USA for some years ago so it is always again the same car as 4VC which had exchange so many parts in them life as the chassis frame and the majority of the body.

Also it would be exchanged; the genuine part must be there to copying this. Perhaps the genuine part was rotten as the body or frame of 4VC?

 

Mr. Conrad’s problem seems to be the complete continue history which the car seems not to have.

Unfortunately I also have only less heard about 3VC or 6VC.

4VC we now all know has it.

 

If the car is not genuine but has so many genuine parts and the correct identity with the correct commission number plate what we have now? A genuine replica of 5VC, the same as 4VC today or more than a 6VC?

 

Whether the car would get more value if it will be accept as 5VC it can be. But the owner says me he would not sell his car. Also it seems to be not very important because the car has the identity of 5VC.

 

So we come to a point which already wrote by Alec.

The 5VC is a very impressive car and has many details which not have the three English cars from what I have seen.

It is this Tony why 5VC not to be permit a genuine works TR4?

 

Continue history may be interesting and important but it can not be that a car which seems to be a historical car it should not to be because the continue history is not complete or parts thereof are dubious.

Dubious parts have all 4 cars. All four cars!

I believe the truly problems with 5VC or with the other VC cars will be interesting by fewer people only.

My own TR4 get a red chassis frame and a silver body with air vents in the wings. It will not be a replica of these works TR4s but good ideas will be copying in it.

As the peoples in the US have made these also formerly?

 

 

Regards

 

Robby T.

[chris turner]

I agree with most of what Alec says, the one small point which sticks out a mile is, why should 5VC be brought to England to be fairly assessed by the relevant experts. Why should his car be subject to an assessment if the others arent I would suggest an assessment should be made by neutral experts on 3,5+6VC.

We have heard about the enhancement of the cars value, the biggest uplift in value comes with the re allocation of the original reg no, 2 of the English cars have benefited from this(probably doubling their value), the German car has not . The basis for reaallocation is usually based on support from the relevant owners club.

Edited March 7, 2006 by chris turner

[jonlar]

an assessment should be made by neutral experts on 3,5+6VC. I believe in fair play and at the moment its just not happening.

 

Well said Chris.

[chris turner]

I think we all agree it would be fantastic to see all 4 cars together at Malvern, I cant wait.

[john.r.davies]

Resurrecting this rather old thread, because of these:

http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/acjcemc?_n...=&_osacat=0

 

An eBay trader, specialising in contemporary photos of motorsport, has for sale some pics of 5VC.

 

I wondered if anyone here had seen them, and would interested, and found this thread.

So there you are. I don't want them!

 

I've no interest in the seller, but i have bought from him in the past. Good ebay dealer.

 

John

[alantr4]

Guys

Good luck to all those own these 4 cars ,for whatever reason.. I like Triumphs and rallying Triumphs in particular.. Ive built works replica Triumphs (not TRs)and had ex works drivers sat in them for an hour or so, they werent "real "cars but those self same guys honestly said they were no different from those they had driven in period. That was my aim then to recreate for my own use and pleasure similar machines to those of the day.. I didnt have coventry plates or need them to recreate the look , all I wanted was to get involved and compete in a similar machine and try to beat similar type cars of the period. Back in the early 90s I knew people who built and sold cars with ex works plates purely because the powers that be would issue those numbers because no one else had title to them.. those same cars are probably still out there,the current owners 20 years on believing they have ownership of a piece of motoring history where in fact they own a number plate and a car that looks the part to go with it. A few years ago someone researched exactly how many ex-works spitfires still claimed to be in existence,there were more than double the original number of those originally created by the factory. I had a pale blue spit with a 1147cc webered engine,salisbury LSD and an ex Geneva Rally car alloy bonnet .At the end of the day it was still just my car albeit with some rare parts, I never claimed it was anything else , I just liked doing donuts in it!

i think its great that the original cars are preserved ,if a car is built as a recreation thats also good for the marque. If cars masquarade as something other than what they they really are then one can only imagine that the owners view there is some financial gain to be made at some point in the future to be made from selling "a piece of history"... As time goes on what was verifiable 20 years ago for one car becomes more subjective for another for whatever reason,maybe the same expert opinion is no longer around or whatever, but regardless all these cars represent a considerable investment to their current owners who should all be complemented on keeping the interest in these cars and their competition success in period alive and kicking...I wish i owned one!!

[john.r.davies]

Oi, oi, oi!

 

I only posted a link to some pics, already!

Sorry to step on sore toes.

 

John

[peterh]

H31 is not a work car. I have two photograph off it in the 63 Monte Rally that I pick up a coupler of years back at the time I check it up and found out that it was a private enter car by a well know drive of the time who name I have now forgot. I have a third photograph off a TR3a racing with the same number. I do not know if the car is still about but I think the number H31 is still in use but not on a TR

Peter